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Post by 405x5 on Jan 27, 2021 8:26:45 GMT -5
Does your universal voltage adapter deliver a BETTER SHAVE......when you travel 🧳??
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 27, 2021 10:00:32 GMT -5
It's also worth mentioning that, in some older US systems, the "230 VAC single phase" was really 208 VAC. This happened because it was really the phase-to-phase voltage voltage taken between two output phases of a 230 VAC three-phase transformer output. It's only about 208 VAC "because it's the voltage between two phase lines that aren't a full 180 degrees apart".
However, in the context of our XPA Gen3 amplifiers... Our big SMPS can derive slightly more maximum continuous power when run from 230 VAC rather than from 115 VAC. So, if you're measuring continuous power, all channels driven, it will measure slightly higher when run from 230 VAC than from 115 VAC. However, this is a totally unrealistic condition, and it isn't going to make any difference when actually playing MUSIC.
Can I assume you all are discussing "split-phase" here and not the "European" 230ish volts? I'm asking because I have a 240v 50amp circuit in my closet I've been wanting to pull into my bedroom to run my amps with. Just haven't taken the time to tap into the box to pull more wire from it. Not looking forward to crawling under the house, but I also need to run wires to where my subs are as well before the wife kills me due to the speaker wires laying on the carpet. Figured I might as well run it all at once. European 220v is a line to neutral value from a 380V 3 phase WYE system with a grounded neutral. In this system the voltages are 120 degrees apart. In the US 240V is a single phase value from a 3 phase DELTA configuration of power distribution. The voltages are 180 degrees apart. |
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Post by megash0n on Jan 27, 2021 21:51:06 GMT -5
Can I assume you all are discussing "split-phase" here and not the "European" 230ish volts? I'm asking because I have a 240v 50amp circuit in my closet I've been wanting to pull into my bedroom to run my amps with. Just haven't taken the time to tap into the box to pull more wire from it. Not looking forward to crawling under the house, but I also need to run wires to where my subs are as well before the wife kills me due to the speaker wires laying on the carpet. Figured I might as well run it all at once. European 220v is a line to neutral value from a 380V 3 phase WYE system with a grounded neutral. In this system the voltages are 120 degrees apart. In the US 240V is a single phase value from a 3 phase DELTA configuration of power distribution. The voltages are 180 degrees apart. I'm referring to two legs that aren't out of phase. If these two legs where 180 out of phase, they would equal zero. We are talking about different things, correct? |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Jan 27, 2021 22:45:37 GMT -5
European 220v is a line to neutral value from a 380V 3 phase WYE system with a grounded neutral. In this system the voltages are 120 degrees apart. In the US 240V is a single phase value from a 3 phase DELTA configuration of power distribution. The voltages are 180 degrees apart. I'm referring to two legs that aren't out of phase. If these two legs where 180 out of phase, they would equal zero. We are talking about different things, correct? If (2) 120V AC waveforms are in phase, the net voltage between them would be zero. (2) 120V AC waveforms 180 degrees out of phase would be a balanced (with respect to ground) 240V waveform. |
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Post by megash0n on Jan 27, 2021 23:19:54 GMT -5
I'm referring to two legs that aren't out of phase. If these two legs where 180 out of phase, they would equal zero. We are talking about different things, correct? If (2) 120V AC waveforms are in phase, the net voltage between them would be zero. (2) 120V AC waveforms 180 degrees out of phase would be a balanced (with respect to ground) 240V waveform. you are correct. I had to look that up again. I apparently remembered some electrician talking about how it is a single phase, not two phases... But split. Probably merged two concepts together in my head and made some assumptions. Thank you for the correction. Still don't really understand why they don't call this 2 phase. Maybe that is where I'm confused. From the pole, they "split" that at the panel onto two different rails with a common ground. So, inside the house, it is two phases, but at the pole, it is a single phase. Am I correct there, or do I just need to dust my electrical book off? 😂😂😂 |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Jan 28, 2021 10:38:19 GMT -5
If (2) 120V AC waveforms are in phase, the net voltage between them would be zero. (2) 120V AC waveforms 180 degrees out of phase would be a balanced (with respect to ground) 240V waveform. you are correct. I had to look that up again. I apparently remembered some electrician talking about how it is a single phase, not two phases... But split. Probably merged two concepts together in my head and made some assumptions. Thank you for the correction. Still don't really understand why they don't call this 2 phase. Maybe that is where I'm confused. From the pole, they "split" that at the panel onto two different rails with a common ground. So, inside the house, it is two phases, but at the pole, it is a single phase. Am I correct there, or do I just need to dust my electrical book off? 😂😂😂 Yes, you are correct. The voltage from the utility is usually 7.2kV on the primary of a residential transformer with a 240V secondary that is center tapped and grounded. The line to ground values are 120vac and the line to line are 240v. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 28, 2021 12:03:41 GMT -5
I would say that, here in the US, the choice of what voltage to use was more motivated by tradition and usage than by safety. In the US virtually all portable appliances run on 110 VAC / 120 VAC. The main exceptions to that, at least until recently, were electric clothes driers and electric stoves.
Because of this, in most older homes in the US, there are special 230 VAC outlets provided for "the stove" and "the drier"... (And, in some cases, by special request, one in "the shop area for heavy power tools"..... ) And the rest of the home is wired with lots of 120 VAC outlets.
It's also worth noting that, in many homes built in the 1950's, the overall level of electric service was generally far less than today. For example, in the NY neighborhood where I used to live... "Normal residential home service" provided 60 Amps or 80 Amps total at 120 VAC... and two separate 30 Amp 230 VAC outlets for the stove and drier... 100 Amp service at 120 VAC was considered to be "heavy duty service" and was only installed by special request...
Our original breaker box had six 15 Amp 120 VAC breakers.... fed by one 80 or 100 Amp master breaker.... And two separate 230 VAC breakers for the stove and drier....
Modern homes are far more reliant on electric power...
And generally have a lot more separate circuits and a lot more overall capacity...
What Garbulky said, plus, in the U.S. you should only use 230v receptacles where absolutely necessary for(ovens, dryers, A/C, etc.) for safety reasons. Also, at 230v you are making those receptacle locations less usable for other home general purpose functions. Not necessarily, When I purchased my Emotiva setup in 2018 and the manual stated the best performance is obtained using 240V, I wired six dedicated two-pole 20 amp 125V/250V dual voltage receptacles for my audio/video equipment per NEC 2017 Exhibit 210.2, so there is 125V and 250V at the same outlets. I used Leviton 5842 Duplex Receptacles. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jan 28, 2021 12:09:17 GMT -5
In my opinion you should operate amplifiers on the voltage that is standard for homes outlets in your country. In the US or Canada, that's 120VAC nominal. If you live in countries where it is 208 like Japan or 230 like Britian or the EU then that's what you should use. Otherwise it's a non-standard and potentially non-code compliant setup.
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 28, 2021 12:28:11 GMT -5
In my opinion you should operate amplifiers on the voltage that is standard for homes outlets in your country. In the US or Canada, that's 120VAC nominal. If you live in countries where it is 208 like Japan or 230 like Britian or the EU then that's what you should use. Otherwise it's a non-standard and potentially non-code compliant setup. Yep.....When it comes to this subject Fidelity is a non issue. Still, there will always be those who will stop at nothing to seek out Audio Nirvana in all the wrong places. Bill |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Jan 28, 2021 13:09:10 GMT -5
In my opinion you should operate amplifiers on the voltage that is standard for homes outlets in your country. In the US or Canada, that's 120VAC nominal. If you live in countries where it is 208 like Japan or 230 like Britian or the EU then that's what you should use. Otherwise it's a non-standard and potentially non-code compliant setup. Nothing non-code compliant about it. Nothing "unsafe" about it. US is the exception in 120v residential power, not the rule. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jan 28, 2021 13:35:00 GMT -5
In my opinion you should operate amplifiers on the voltage that is standard for homes outlets in your country. In the US or Canada, that's 120VAC nominal. If you live in countries where it is 208 like Japan or 230 like Britian or the EU then that's what you should use. Otherwise it's a non-standard and potentially non-code compliant setup. Nothing non-code compliant about it. Nothing "unsafe" about it. US is the exception in 120v residential power, not the rule. I never said anything about safety. Like I said, it would be non-standard and potentially non-code compliant. It would depend on the local household codes in the area where the user wanted to use it. It is just something that should not be done in the US without having an electrical contractor check the local codes. |
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Post by SteveH on Jan 31, 2021 15:43:53 GMT -5
Not necessarily, When I purchased my Emotiva setup in 2018 and the manual stated the best performance is obtained using 240V, I wired six dedicated two-pole 20 amp 125V/250V dual voltage receptacles for my audio/video equipment per NEC 2017 Exhibit 210.2, so there is 125V and 250V at the same outlets. I used Leviton 5842 Duplex Receptacles. How did you wire the ground? Just in the standard way.... so hot 1 to one pin, hot 2 to the other pin, and ground to green screw? What about the neutral wire? You need to use a two pole circuit breaker, a three conductor cable with a ground and a dual voltage outlet. The two hots go to the outlet, the neutral goes to the 125V section of the outlet and the ground terminates to the green screw, just like it does for everything else. Here is what it should look like, I have a video: Need to add a sub panel for your new audio gear like I had to? Check out this video: Need to run wires through a closet to your audio gear like I had to? Check out this video: Need to terminate your new audio gear branch circuits to your new sub panel like I had to? Check out this video: |
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Post by JKCashin on Feb 1, 2021 23:42:49 GMT -5
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Post by SteveH on Feb 2, 2021 17:19:53 GMT -5
You're welcome JK, my pleasure, rock on with your new electric! |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Feb 2, 2021 20:09:27 GMT -5
How did you wire the ground? Just in the standard way.... so hot 1 to one pin, hot 2 to the other pin, and ground to green screw? What about the neutral wire? You need to use a two pole circuit breaker, a three conductor cable with a ground and a dual voltage outlet. The two hots go to the outlet, the neutral goes to the 125V section of the outlet and the ground terminates to the green screw, just like it does for everything else. Here is what it should look like, I have a video: Need to add a sub panel for your new audio gear like I had to? Check out this video: Need to run wires through a closet to your audio gear like I had to? Check out this video: Need to terminate your new audio gear branch circuits to your new sub panel like I had to? Check out this video: Great overview SteveH. Its good to see how things are done well and done right when you take you time and understand the requirements. A professional electrician would not have necessarily done such a thorough job! |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Feb 2, 2021 22:47:07 GMT -5
You need to use a two pole circuit breaker, a three conductor cable with a ground and a dual voltage outlet. The two hots go to the outlet, the neutral goes to the 125V section of the outlet and the ground terminates to the green screw, just like it does for everything else. Just like Romex is not allowed in all jurisdictions, that device you show also isn't, even if it is available in Tamper Resistant form. We can point out National Code text to Local Inspectors and they can point out what was not adopted by the Village Council. In my neck of the woods where everything is metal pipe and boxes, 240V receptacles need to be simplex and the pipes - and boxes - can't have 240V usage mingled with 120V. But I will say that with your long runs in the attic, it "is" a good idea to upsize the wire to counteract sag just like you did. The last project our company finished had one run that went from the house to a front gate, about 140' so not terribly long, but the wire was upsized twice, once for the normal voltage drop and the second for the fact that the gate motor control is very sensitive to voltage drop. Current had little to do with it, it was all about the voltage. The normal wire size for that voltage/current/length would've been technically enough for some gate operators, but the company that installed the gate said they have zero problems when upsizing the way they suggested, so we said - Ok. |
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Post by leonski on Feb 3, 2021 0:57:03 GMT -5
Is there something different with the 220/240 volts in the US? Pretty much all of the rest of the world is default 220/240 volts, it’s mainly the US and Canada that’s only 110 volts. Everything here in Australia is 220/240 volts and I’ve never seen any statistics that says 110 volts is safer. As my uncle told me a long time ago, it’s the amps that will kill you not the volts. Back to the thread, I have absolutely no doubt that you would benefit from a “better” power amp for your FL and FR when listening to stereo 2.1 music. Preferably a pair of quad differential mono blocks for a number of reasons. But it’s not going to be night and day, from memory with 2 of the high power channels driven the XPA-11 is capable of 300 watts per channel so there’s no lack of grunt. In regards to 110 versus 220/240, the XPA-11 at 65 x 8 plus 300 x 3 is 1420 watts in total. That’s output, I don’t know the efficiency of the SMPS to calculate the input watts but that’s getting too close to the limit of a 110 volt circuit for my liking. Again it’s not going to be night and day but I’d be swapping to a 220/240 volt circuit. Then there’s no doubt that you are getting the best the XPA-11 can deliver. Emotiva didn’t put the note there for no reason. Not that it’s all that important but processors don’t need a lot of watts, so having the RMC-1 on it’s own circuit is a big overkill. Cheers Gary True, damage to a human is the result of current. However, higher voltages break down skin insulation easier than lower voltages and then the current flow begins. If the skin insulation is broken, one can be hurt or even killed by 12vdc or even 6vdc as in car batteries. Americans are used to knowing that general purpose receptacles are 120 volt and general purpose electrical appliances in the U.S. are designed for that voltage. Safety is knowledge of the standards in a given country. Output stage is maybe around 50% efficient. PS efficiency almost doesnt' matter. And yes, US circuit is 20% derate for 'long time period' so the 2400watts of a 20amp / 120v is <2000 while the 1800 watts of a 15amp / 120v is 1800 -20% or 1440. Bottom line? It is ALSO true that you are probably never using more than a few watts per channel with 10X peaks called 'crest factor'....I'd be surprised IF you drew more than 400 watts almost EVER with that amp. You COULD get a Kill-A-Watt meter for about 20$ either as a Walmart or online purchase. Well worth it..... You need to get everything straight......Call EMO and ask about US standard 230/ 60hz and if that is OK. Than speak with your electrician and see if HE can connect the dots....(wires, actually!) I JUST read thru the rest of this and must say to LISTEN TO KEITH. He has a firm grip on this issue and realizes the gain in power is both small and not needed in any practical setup...... |
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Post by SteveH on Feb 3, 2021 18:02:47 GMT -5
True, damage to a human is the result of current. However, higher voltages break down skin insulation easier than lower voltages and then the current flow begins. If the skin insulation is broken, one can be hurt or even killed by 12vdc or even 6vdc as in car batteries. Americans are used to knowing that general purpose receptacles are 120 volt and general purpose electrical appliances in the U.S. are designed for that voltage. Safety is knowledge of the standards in a given country. You need to get everything straight......Call EMO and ask about US standard 230/ 60hz and if that is OK. Than speak with your electrician and see if HE can connect the dots....(wires, actually!) Just for the record, I did call Emotiva. I told them I was in Florida and I wanted to use 240VAC to power my amplifiers and subwoofers. Emotiva said that was perfectly fine. I asked them if I could purchase 240VAC power cords for US use and they said no, I would have to acquire them on my own or make them myself. So, Emotiva 'okayed' using US 240VAC and I made my own power cords. Ain't nothing burned up and I am not dead, haha! |
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Post by leonski on Feb 4, 2021 0:52:56 GMT -5
I love your videos. And it appears you know your NEC like a Pro. Great work and no compromises. Terrific.
Glad you dropped your chat with the 'code guy'.
Now? One question. Are those Apogee STAGE speakers? Wonderful panels. Buddy had some maybe 35 years ago......and I think he was using a B&K amp.
What can I do? My house has a 100 amp service. Period. Not that I'm thinking this way, but do they make a small aux panel....like 40 amp or so?
And LAST....I see you talk about the ground and neutral buss. Is the Ground buss to its OWN Copper Rod? Or is it bridged over?
Living in Florida? Man, I hated that place. Florida Flicker and Flash with summer storms and those non-grounded Terrazzo floors. And not that it matters, but
Old-school terrazzo seems different than new. Entire sidewalks of Terrazzo can be found south of hte border in Tijuana. And the floors where I lived in N.Miami were
poured a decade or more before we bought our house there in about '68.
Sorry,....I forgot! Since you live in one of the lightning centers of the USA, what do you do for Surge Protection? Point of use or will you install a whole-house solution?
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Post by leonski on Feb 5, 2021 0:04:17 GMT -5
I just had an idea........Get some 2kva or so ISOLATION TRANSFORMERS. They'll have a positive effect on noise floor and mitigate some surges.....
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