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Post by dlaunde on Jan 26, 2020 9:32:43 GMT -5
Hey all,
I was recently told that your normal, run of the mill $20-30 surge protector can limit current draw for high powered amps/subs. Never really thought about this before.
So for my Gen2 XPA5, the choice is either plug it directly into the wall (I live in Northern Ohio and we do get thunderstorms but to this day still haven't had a lightning hit cause damage, but we do get a brownout a couple of times a year) or get a surge protector that allows high current draw.
Without breaking the bank, is there a recommended surge protector that would handle the current draw of the XPA5? Or if I look around, what spec am I looking for to confirm it would be compatible current wise?
Also, do the BasX 150's need such a setup or do normal surge protectors provide enough current for their demands?
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Post by DavidR on Jan 26, 2020 9:37:33 GMT -5
The ONLY safe way to protect anything that uses electricity from a lighting strike is to unplug it.
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 26, 2020 9:57:02 GMT -5
Hey all,
I was recently told that your normal, run of the mill $20-30 surge protector can limit current draw for high powered amps/subs. Never really thought about this before.
So for my Gen2 XPA5, the choice is either plug it directly into the wall (I live in Northern Ohio and we do get thunderstorms but to this day still haven't had a lightning hit cause damage, but we do get a brownout a couple of times a year) or get a surge protector that allows high current draw.
Without breaking the bank, is there a recommended surge protector that would handle the current draw of the XPA5? Or if I look around, what spec am I looking for to confirm it would be compatible current wise?
Also, do the BasX 150's need such a setup or do normal surge protectors provide enough current for their demands?
Amplifiers really don’t need a surge protector. Just plug that sucker right into the wall and yank it on vacation or if nasty weather is around. Bill |
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Post by dlaunde on Jan 26, 2020 10:54:22 GMT -5
The ONLY safe way to protect anything that uses electricity from a lighting strike is to unplug it. Oh I understand that. I was more wondering if surge protection was needed for things like a brown out, especially when the power surges and doesn't completely cut off, or possible surges from appliances in the house (water heater, stove, etc). |
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Post by dlaunde on Jan 26, 2020 10:56:27 GMT -5
Amplifiers really don’t need a surge protector. Just plug that sucker right into the wall and yank it on vacation or if nasty weather is around. Bill Does the same apply for my Funk sub (in terms of not needing a surge protector)? |
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Post by audiobill on Jan 26, 2020 11:19:17 GMT -5
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DYohn
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 18,487
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Post by DYohn on Jan 26, 2020 11:37:11 GMT -5
The ONLY safe way to protect anything that uses electricity from a lighting strike is to unplug it. Oh I understand that. I was more wondering if surge protection was needed for things like a brown out, especially when the power surges and doesn't completely cut off, or possible surges from appliances in the house (water heater, stove, etc). A surge protector will not help you during a brown out. |
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Post by dlaunde on Jan 26, 2020 11:51:26 GMT -5
So it seems between here and Googling, the consensus is just plug into the wall directly?
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Post by DavidR on Jan 26, 2020 12:18:14 GMT -5
So it seems between here and Googling, the consensus is just plug into the wall directly? I use a CMX2 as I have a tiny amount of DC on my AC lines. I think it's from one on my sons devices.
I use THIS on my tube amp. Similar to the one Audiobill posted. It works great for when the power blips from someone hitting a pole or a branch falling on the lines. It happens a lot in my neighborhood. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 26, 2020 12:27:05 GMT -5
Amplifiers really don’t need a surge protector. Just plug that sucker right into the wall and yank it on vacation or if nasty weather is around. Bill Does the same apply for my Funk sub (in terms of not needing a surge protector)? Yes! I direct wall the sub. If you are not comfortable with this then sure, you CAN get a S.P. for both. Just get a suitable for up to a 20 amp. breaker...… wall wart style similar to what others here have suggested and from an Electrical Supply house, not a gourmet audio salon. |
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Post by megash0n on Jan 26, 2020 12:52:38 GMT -5
I use a CMX-6 with a single outlet surge protector in front of it. Didn't realize until after I bought it that the CMXs are not surge protectors.
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Post by DavidR on Jan 26, 2020 13:22:52 GMT -5
I use a CMX-6 with a single outlet surge protector in front of it. Didn't realize until after I bought it that the CMXs are not surge protectors. But they are good filters. |
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Post by westom on Jan 26, 2020 13:29:23 GMT -5
Oh I understand that. I was more wondering if surge protection was needed for things like a brown out, especially when the power surges and doesn't completely cut off, or possible surges from appliances in the house (water heater, stove, etc). First, always ignore any recommendation without numbers. Start with specification numbers for a surge protector. Its let-through voltage may be 330 volts. That means it does nothing - remains inert - until 120 volts well exceeds 330 volts. Protectors do nothing for brownouts. How often is your AC voltage approaching 1000 volts? How often are unprotected and less robust appliances damaged? How often have you replaced a dishwasher, clocks, refrigerator, LED & CFL bulbs, door bell, furnace, garage door opener, and smoke detectors? What is protecting all them? Invisible protectors? Why implement a solution when a threat / anomaly is not even defined? Second, brownouts do not harm any electronics. Voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Even that is normal voltage for all electronics. If voltage drops lower, then electronics simply power off. International design standards, even long before the IBM PC existed, required electronics to suffer no damage on all voltages down to zero. One standard even included this expression in all capital letters: No Damage Region. Low voltage is a threat to motorized appliances. So, a utility must provide sufficient voltage or cut power off - to protect those less robust appliances. Third, your concern is a transient that occurs maybe once every seven years. Many will not see one even in 20 years. One 'whole house' protector is required to protect everything. Even comes with numbers that says how effective. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Then nobody is wasting time and effort unplugging everything. Even near zero joules in a power strip are protected. 'Whole house' solution is standard anywhere that damage cannot happen. This is a completely different anomaly. Each anomaly requires completely different solutions. All defined only when one includes the numbers. Long before anyone can recommend a solution, first the problem / threat / anomaly must be defined. Four, where is this power strip that limits current? The receptacle is only rated for 15 amps. So a power strip must have a 15 amp circuit breaker. IOW it limits current only when too much current is consumed. What appliance needs 15 amps? It if does, then its plug is shaped to not fit in that standard wall receptacle. "Current limiting power strips" are good for all currents up to its circuit breaker. Some strips are dangerous; do not have that necessary circuit breaker. What number (for what anomaly) causes you concern? |
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Post by dlaunde on Jan 26, 2020 14:12:38 GMT -5
First, always ignore any recommendation without numbers. Start with specification numbers for a surge protector. Its let-through voltage may be 330 volts. That means it does nothing - remains inert - until 120 volts well exceeds 330 volts. Protectors do nothing for brownouts. How often is your AC voltage approaching 1000 volts? How often are unprotected and less robust appliances damaged? How often have you replaced a dishwasher, clocks, refrigerator, LED & CFL bulbs, door bell, furnace, garage door opener, and smoke detectors? What is protecting all them? Invisible protectors? Why implement a solution when a threat / anomaly is not even defined? Second, brownouts do not harm any electronics. Voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Even that is normal voltage for all electronics. If voltage drops lower, then electronics simply power off. International design standards, even long before the IBM PC existed, required electronics to suffer no damage on all voltages down to zero. One standard even included this expression in all capital letters: No Damage Region. Low voltage is a threat to motorized appliances. So, a utility must provide sufficient voltage or cut power off - to protect those less robust appliances. Third, your concern is a transient that occurs maybe once every seven years. Many will not see one even in 20 years. One 'whole house' protector is required to protect everything. Even comes with numbers that says how effective. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Then nobody is wasting time and effort unplugging everything. Even near zero joules in a power strip are protected. 'Whole house' solution is standard anywhere that damage cannot happen. This is a completely different anomaly. Each anomaly requires completely different solutions. All defined only when one includes the numbers. Long before anyone can recommend a solution, first the problem / threat / anomaly must be defined. Four, where is this power strip that limits current? The receptacle is only rated for 15 amps. So a power strip must have a 15 amp circuit breaker. IOW it limits current only when too much current is consumed. What appliance needs 15 amps? It if does, then its plug is shaped to not fit in that standard wall receptacle. "Current limiting power strips" are good for all currents up to its circuit breaker. Some strips are dangerous; do not have that necessary circuit breaker. What number (for what anomaly) causes you concern? Short answer: In the 15yrs I have lived here, never lost an appliance or even an incandescent bulb to a lightning strike/surge.
I think it was the latest round of brownouts we had during a high windstorm that got me paranoid. One of them lasted a good ten seconds, where current fluctuated enough to power off and on some of my devices multiple times in that span. So I wasn't sure in those instances if that would harm anything.
Regarding normal surge protectors limiting current: when I Googled "surge protector audio amplifier", everywhere from Audiogon forums to AVS forums has most people saying that a normal power strip limits current to high powered amps, with many claiming better sound by simply plugging the amp/sub of question into the wall. Again, this is in regards to the cheapo surge protectors, like $20 APC ones on Amazon that don't even list a current draw/amp limit (as opposed to more expensive ones that advertise limits of 8A or 10A or 15A, etc)
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Post by westom on Jan 27, 2020 12:49:26 GMT -5
... when I Googled "surge protector audio amplifier", everywhere from Audiogon forums to AVS forums has most people saying that a normal power strip limits current to high powered amps, with many claiming better sound by simply plugging the amp/sub of question into the wall. Monster sold speaker wire marked with "Amp" and "Speaker" on each end. Monster said reversing those wires (connecting the "Amp" wire to a speaker) would subvert sound. Many tried it and could clearly hear a difference. Scams are that easily promoted. Most only know the first thing they are ordered to believe. Never ask why. Never demand numbers. And never learn what junk science is. Observation also noted that standing water eventually created life. It contained mosquito larvae. Observation also proved that standing water created life. A conclusion only from observation is classic junk science. So Monster could sell $7 speaker wires for $70. So many somehow know that power strips limit current. They could not bother to learn how and why electricity works. They could not bother to read specification numbers. Observation justified junk science - a conclusion only from their emotions. Audio is a hotbed where experts who know because they feel a difference. Reality takes many paragraphs. Scams are promoted in but a sentence or two. Paragraphs are harder to read. Just another reason why scams are so widespread and easily promoted. Reading (learning the underlying science before making a conclusion) is just too hard. Protector strip manufacturers know their target market - not informed consumers. Market is people who are so easily scammed by hearsay, fear, wild speculation, spin, no specification numbers, and emotions. A safe power strip lists its current on a nameplate. A safe power strip has a circuit breaker typically rated at 15 amps (many times larger than what audio equipment needs). Specification numbers are ignored only by their target market - consumers who are most easily brainwashed. Such as Monster customers. Where is one fact or number that says current is restricted? What underlying principle from basic electrical concepts says current is restricted? Just two of so many damning facts that expose junk science reasoning. And demonstrate why scams are so easily promoted by junk science to many who are so easily brainwashed. They do not even know what is always required to have an honest recommendation. Scary how the number of easily brainwashed consumers appears to be increasing. Hearsay is somehow fact. Any kid can expose the lie. Plug an incandescent bulb into that same power strip. Does that bulb dim to 50% intensity when audio equipment is powered? If not, then internal DC voltages do not vary by even 0.2 volts. Only those internal DC voltages matter. If that light bulb dims at all, then serious workmanship issues exist. Fix that defect. Honesty is not found in soundbites. What can precede and create a brownout? Faults created by wind, tree rodents, linemen errors, stray cars, or utility switching. A transient may create that brownout. If that transient causes appliance damage, then the easily brainwashed consumer may blame the brownout for damage. And not the preceding transient. Just another example of how so many make conclusions only from observation: junk science. They fail to first learn underlying concepts that are required to have an honest conclusion. Brownouts can be hard on motorized appliances. Brownouts do not damage electronics. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 27, 2020 14:41:26 GMT -5
For surge protection? I'd recomment a look at WHOLE HOUSE. Such devices are installed by an electrician at the main panel. They are MOV based and will 'wear out' after a number of hits......
My Panamax device will shut off ALL the outlets when voltage goes out of the 95v to 135v range and has done so maybe 3 times in my time of ownership, maybe 20 years?
The OTHER addition which might be good would be an ISOLATION TRANSFORMER. A large one, maybe 2000va or so, will be good for an entire system, less, the power amps, which in a house
with surge protection should be simply plugged into the wall and UNplugged in stormy conditions.
Years ago I lived up in Anaheim, the home of Disneyland. I lived next to some water facility. When the very high powered pumps would turn on, I'd get a brownout for a second and when they
shut off, the lights was get BRIGHT for an equally brief time. EVERYTHING in the house was taking a beating.
I maybe Easily Brainwashed but when a brownout hit my home here in SD County, it took out my amp. Apparently the power company agreed and paid for the repairs. My Carver Cube had a 15amp
fuse. I could easily get the house lights to dim in time to the music when pushed to its limits. The power company didn't even beef, especially when I told them the exact Day and Time of the 'hit'.
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Post by DavidR on Jan 27, 2020 19:34:01 GMT -5
leonski >>> was the Carver cube (M400 ?) a magnetic field amp design ?
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Post by SteveH on Jan 27, 2020 19:39:40 GMT -5
For surge protection? I'd recomment a look at WHOLE HOUSE. Such devices are installed by an electrician at the main panel. They are MOV based and will 'wear out' after a number of hits...... I maybe Easily Brainwashed but when a brownout hit my home here in SD County, it took out my amp. Apparently the power company agreed and paid for the repairs. My Carver Cube had a 15amp fuse. I could easily get the house lights to dim in time to the music when pushed to its limits. The power company didn't even beef, especially when I told them the exact Day and Time of the 'hit'. I opted for 'whole house' protection, but this protection is provided by my power company for a small monthly fee. This 'surge shield' is installed at the power meter and is not my responsibility. If there is a fault light illuminated, I call the power company to correct it. Like others have said, there are age/life cycle limitations on surge protectors. The power company has replaced my surge protector twice within the last within the last twenty years and it wasn't because I reported a fault, I have never seen it faulted. Perhaps it was replaced because of updated technology along with age limited/life cycle components. Brownouts do damage non-motorized electronics. I lost a Carver TFM-45 amplifier during a fifteen second brownout while listening at an elevated level. I have run six dedicated 125V/250V 20 amp branch circuits to my audio gear, so I am direct-connect to the wall's ac outlets. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 27, 2020 19:49:37 GMT -5
leonski >>> was the Carver cube (M400 ?) a magnetic field amp design ? yes,...... The M400t (mod) amp. Power Supply consists of several power rails (can you spell 'Class H'? or 'Class G'? along with a choke the size of your fist. Amp stored VERY little energy and was apparently turning the house power off and on in time to the music. |
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Post by DavidR on Jan 27, 2020 20:21:02 GMT -5
leonski >>> was the Carver cube (M400 ?) a magnetic field amp design ? yes,...... The M400t (mod) amp. Power Supply consists of several power rails (can you spell 'Class H'? or 'Class G'? along with a choke the size of your fist. Amp stored VERY little energy and was apparently turning the house power off and on in time to the music. I had an M1.5t that did that too. |
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