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Post by leonski on Jan 27, 2020 20:39:23 GMT -5
The higher up Carver amps were Aspirational. but what I really wanted to try was the Sonic Hologram preamp or add-on device.
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Post by SteveH on Jan 27, 2020 21:19:18 GMT -5
The higher up Carver amps were Aspirational. but what I really wanted to try was the Sonic Hologram preamp or add-on device. I have a Carver CT-17 preamp with the Sonic Hologram feature, it works very well and was way ahead of its time. I bought that preamp in 1992 and it still works today. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jan 27, 2020 22:35:35 GMT -5
The Martin Logan electrostatics get unplugged from the wall when lightning is on the way, or predicted while I might be out. I probably unplug them a half dozen times a year plus while out of town.
Amps and subs are plugged into wall outlets and are unplugged when lightning is on the way.
My first Panamax, after 6 years, finally had a failure of Banks 3 & 4 after a wild lightning storm about 4 months ago. I think it's just the relay not quite "clicking" into the ON position 100%, but I haven't taken the time to confirm. It clicks but doesn't pass power to the outlets. I bought a second Panamax M5400-PM to provide for the lack of protected outlets. Bottom line, the Panamax did what I paid for it to do - take the punishment and not bother what was connected to it. I don't unplug the Panamax power conditioners. Keep in mind that the outlet Banks which failed are in a OFF state when the system is shut down, but there are still 4 devices plugged in which are ON all the time but were not affected.
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Post by audiogeek on Jan 27, 2020 22:41:30 GMT -5
The higher up Carver amps were Aspirational.   but what I really wanted to try was the Sonic Hologram preamp or add-on device. I have a Carver CT-17 preamp with the Sonic Hologram feature, it works very well and was way ahead of its time. I bought that preamp in 1992 and it still works today. I had a CT-17 and aTFM-22 that worked great for many years. I used the sonic hologram for most of my music listening. I really liked what it did to the soundstage. Was a great sounding preamp. |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Jan 27, 2020 23:26:57 GMT -5
Power strips with filters are a good thing. MOV's provide sub microsecond response time to lightning strikes and will help if a near power line strike occurs. Circuit breakers are useless for currents created by high frequency voltage transients, they are way too slow. A decent power strip with filtering will limit current at high frequencies (the high kHz and low MHz frequencies) they do not limit current at 60Hz line frequencies, so your amp will not be starved of the needed current due to normal use. Limiting high frequency voltage to a unregulated, transformer based power supply will be a good thing for sound quality as high frequencies on the power line will pass through the capacitance of the transformer windings and the ESL of the electrolytic filter caps will not block it, hence there is a good chance you could hear it. If a piece of equipment carries a CE mark and is certified for EMC, it will by design be "hardened" to the expected voltage transients on its power input. My 2 cents  |
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Post by goodfellas27 on Jan 27, 2020 23:33:18 GMT -5
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Post by leonski on Jan 28, 2020 0:45:53 GMT -5
The Martin Logan electrostatics get unplugged from the wall when lightning is on the way, or predicted while I might be out. I probably unplug them a half dozen times a year plus while out of town. Amps and subs are plugged into wall outlets and are unplugged when lightning is on the way. My first Panamax, after 6 years, finally had a failure of Banks 3 & 4 after a wild lightning storm about 4 months ago. I think it's just the relay not quite "clicking" into the ON position 100%, but I haven't taken the time to confirm. It clicks but doesn't pass power to the outlets. I bought a second Panamax M5400-PM to provide for the lack of protected outlets. Bottom line, the Panamax did what I paid for it to do - take the punishment and not bother what was connected to it. I don't unplug the Panamax power conditioners. Keep in mind that the outlet Banks which failed are in a OFF state when the system is shut down, but there are still 4 devices plugged in which are ON all the time but were not affected. That many potential lightning events over a 6 year period of 6 per year is 36 events. IMO? You might want to replace the MOVs IN the Panamax at this point. Good luck prying the data out of Panamax. But all is not lost. MOVs are dirt cheap. And can be replaced by ANY competent tech. They are not polar so not particular about which way they are connected. A caveman with a soldering pencil could do it. If the relay which was OFF / not activated managed to ARC during some kind of lightning event? Might have charcoaled the contacts. In years past, we had special files / polishers for such work..... If so, it might be latching but simply not conducting. What does your NOSE say? If the smoke has been let out, you should smell it easily. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jan 28, 2020 2:07:38 GMT -5
My first Panamax, after 6 years, finally had a failure of Banks 3 & 4 after a wild lightning storm about 4 months ago. I think it's just the relay not quite "clicking" into the ON position 100%, but I haven't taken the time to confirm. It clicks but doesn't pass power to the outlets. Keep in mind that the outlet Banks which failed are in a OFF state when the system is shut down, but there are still 4 devices plugged in which are ON all the time but were not affected. That many potential lightning events over a 6 year period of 6 per year is 36 events. IMO? You might want to replace the MOVs IN the Panamax at this point. Good luck prying the data out of Panamax. But all is not lost. MOVs are dirt cheap. And can be replaced by ANY competent tech. They are not polar so not particular about which way they are connected. A caveman with a soldering pencil could do it. If the relay which was OFF / not activated managed to ARC during some kind of lightning event? Might have charcoaled the contacts. In years past, we had special files / polishers for such work..... If so, it might be latching but simply not conducting. What does your NOSE say? If the smoke has been let out, you should smell it easily. hmmmmm . . . interesting. I've got the system apart right now due to changing my system location so maybe I'll pry the top off again and take a peek. I've got a post-apocalyptic pre-historic soldering setup that my neanderthal hands are pretty good with, and a 25 year old Fluke 87 which might aid in tracking some things down in the circuit board. And yes, I felt the relay clicking when I had the top off previously so I think you're correct about it not conducting. I never smelled any smoke at the time of the event and I was home when it happened, but I also never opened it up until last week when I pulled everything apart.  Also, add my vote to those in favor of whole house surge protection. It was recommended to me by my electrician but I never got around to learning about it. Thanks to the links above provided by goodfellas27 I now know they aren't very expensive (I thought they were), and frankly don't look complicated to install. AND, I never realized how short the life expectancy of surge components are, which now makes me concerned about using the older Panamax. All very good info, thanks! |
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Post by dlaunde on Jan 28, 2020 3:12:26 GMT -5
1) Would the SurgeX Flatpack SA-82 be worth getting to at least use for my higher end/more expensive gear (amps, processor, sub)?
2) Would splitting the plugs on it to accommodate my XPA5, (2) BasX 150s, and my Arcam receiver (which isn't powering any speakers) be too much for one SA-82?
I ask because I found one used on eBay that is under $100 but wasn't sure if even at that price it will offer more than the entry level APC surge protector I'm using now.
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Post by dlaunde on Jan 28, 2020 3:35:53 GMT -5
The other consideration is the Furman PST-8 D.
Thoughts between the SurgeX Flatpack SA-82 vs. Furman PST-8 D?
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Post by westom on Jan 28, 2020 15:00:21 GMT -5
That many potential lightning events over a 6 year period of 6 per year is 36 events. IMO? You might want to replace the MOVs IN the Panamax at this point. Read (quote) specification numbers for that Panamax. What is painfully obvious? Six surges per year means a dishwasher, clock radios, refrigerator, many GFCIs, furnace, LED & CFL bulbs, garage door openers, dimmer switches, central air, and smoke detectors have been replaced often. Why do six surges per year damage a near zero joule Panamax? And not unprotected appliances? The answer is defined by a number in that sentence. Yes, protectors have a life expectancy. Then include numbers. A 'whole house' protector remains functional for many decades after many direct lightning strikes. Yes, it does eventually degrade (and must not trigger that protection light). That "years" number is so large that nobody cares. Panamax, with a massive profit margin, fails on a surge too tiny to overwhelm what is superior protection already inside appliances. How many joules does that Panamax claim to 'absorb'? Honest recommendations always include that number. Any recommendation that does not cite relevant spec numbers is best ignored. Honest recommendations state what is relevant. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Effective protection means that current is not anywhere inside the house. If connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to an earth ground electrode, then even that tiny joule (high profit) Panamax is protected. Informed consumers always properly earth a 'whole house' protector on AC mains. That and protection (installed for free) on all other incoming wires means effective protection. Best protection must already be installed on an incoming TV cable, telephone, satellite dish, and OTA antenna. Even code required that, long before any of us existed. But AC electric (the most common incoming path for surges) is not required to have that proven protection. I opted for 'whole house' protection, but this protection is provided by my power company for a small monthly fee. This 'surge shield' is installed at the power meter and is not my responsibility. If there is a fault light illuminated, I call the power company to correct it. Like others have said, there are age/life cycle limitations on surge protectors. Steveh - that protector light can only report a failure that must never happen. That light can only report a protector was so grossly undersized that only a fuse prevented a fire. That failure light can only report that the replacement protector must be sized larger. Again, informed replies also include numbers. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimally sized 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. If that failure light indicates a failure, then a new protector probably should be 100,000 amps. Only answers that also say why with numbers are relevant. That failure light says nothing about the acceptable failure mode - degradation. It only reports catastrophic type failure. No protector does protection. Not one. Best protection on a TV cable is a direct connection to the earth ground electrodes. No protector needed. But AC electric cannot connect direct to what does all protection - earth ground. So that 'whole house' protector must make - and this number is critical - a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connect to an earthing electrode. Protection is defined by this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Clearly not in an obscenely overpriced Panamax with near zero joules and a high failure rate. Protection means hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly 'absorbed' outside in earth ground. What is THE most critical item in that protection 'system'? A low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends) connection to single point earth ground. As Ben Franklin demonstrated over 250 years ago, protection is always about a connection to and quality of the item that defines protection - earth ground electrodes. Why is a 'whole house' protector so effective. It has that low impedance connection to earth. Panamax (a profit center) clearly does not. Numbers on that near zero Panamax explain why transients, that are only noise, easily destroy a Panamax. Always learn (demand) the numbers. |
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Post by westom on Jan 28, 2020 15:06:42 GMT -5
The other consideration is the Furman PST-8 D. Thoughts between the SurgeX Flatpack SA-82 vs. Furman PST-8 D? What are the relevant numbers for each? SurgeX typically will absorb maybe 600 joules. Due to inductor saturation, more energy means it becomes a direct connection from that surge source into electronics. SurgeX is a series mode filter. To absorb that much energy, then it must weight on the order of tens of pound. Furman is probably lighter. A first indication that its passive filters are even tinier. An indication is just another reason why one immediately consults specification numbers. Since that is the only place that a manufacturer must be honest. |
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Post by ttocs on Jan 28, 2020 15:30:38 GMT -5
That many potential lightning events over a 6 year period of 6 per year is 36 events. IMO? You might want to replace the MOVs IN the Panamax at this point. Read (quote) specification numbers for that Panamax. What is painfully obvious? Six surges per year means a dishwasher, clock radios, refrigerator, many GFCIs, furnace, LED & CFL bulbs, garage door openers, dimmer switches, central air, and smoke detectors have been replaced often. Why do six surges per year damage a near zero joule Panamax? And not unprotected appliances? The answer is defined by a number in that sentence. Just want to be clear here, it's not 6 surges a year, just a bunch of times per year when lightning is close enough that I unplug some of my equipment. To my knowledge I've only experienced 1 time when - after unplugging my more sensitive stuff - I'm sure that lightning affected my neighborhood, not a direct strike at my house, just the electrical going crazy for about 7 seconds - On, Off, bzzzzzzz, brown-out, On. No breakers were tripped. |
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Post by ttocs on Jan 28, 2020 15:42:27 GMT -5
Looks like my Panamax-1 is totally working again!
I decided to dive in last night and removed the circuit board with the voltage regulation and switched outlet relay for Banks 3-4. After checking I found the suspect relay giving unstable resistance readings initially, but . . . . after checking other parts and re-checking the relays the readings became the same as the other two relays. I didn't pay too much attention to this as I just chalked it up to me not having consistent connection with the probes.
This morning I reinstalled everything and powered up - Banks 3&4 work again!
Maybe it's just the fact that all the wires were disconnected an reconnected thus renewing those connections, maybe it's the tinkering around and checking the diodes and relays, maybe it's just that the relay needed a few more On/Off hits to get it working again, dunno. All I know is, now it works and I can't get it to not work. So I put the top back on and will continue to use it and see what happens.
Anyone have some alternate universe explanation?
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Post by KeithL on Jan 28, 2020 15:57:27 GMT -5
It's worth repeating that a surge suppressor blocks surges - times when the voltage jumps UP, usually to a very high voltage, for a short period of time. A surge suppressor will do nothing whatsoever to help with dropouts or brownouts. If you really want to prevent those then you need an uninterruptible power supply (a UPS)... And a UPS big enough to run a big power amplifier would be very large and very expensive.
In some situations, when power returns after an outage, there are a few brief surges as the power grid stabilizes... but these are rarely large enough to be harmful.
Some large amplifiers draw a very high inrush current for a few seconds when you first power them on. A low quality power strip, which contains thin wires, or poor connections, can limit this power... which can cause some amplifiers to act oddly. The same can be said for using excessively long, or excessively thin, extension cords.
And some very expensive "power regenerators", which aren't designed to handle this sort of power, can also malfunction under those conditions.
However... this is rarely the complex situation that many people worry about.
If your amplifier seems to not be behaving properly when you connect it to a power strip or surge suppressor... then try plugging it straight into the wall
If the problem vanishes then you should probably get a new power strip... or leave your amp plugged into the wall. But, if it sounds fine plugged into that power strip or surge suppressor, then you have nothing to worry about.
Sadly, in recent times, many product vendors rely on convincing people that they need expensive solutions to subtle problems. It often seems to take pages and pages of pseudo-scientific jargon to convince the poor customer he has a problem that he never even knew he had! The reality is that, if you never noticed the problem, then you probably don't have a problem.
I would offer this advice.... If you live in an area prone to power surges then get a good surge suppressor. Get one that actually offers a guarantee that they will replace your equipment if it gets damaged while connected to their device. (That proves that they have some degree of faith in their product.) And, as long as your audio gear doesn't sound funny when you connect it, then it's almost certainly working just fine.
First, always ignore any recommendation without numbers. Start with specification numbers for a surge protector. Its let-through voltage may be 330 volts. That means it does nothing - remains inert - until 120 volts well exceeds 330 volts. Protectors do nothing for brownouts. How often is your AC voltage approaching 1000 volts? How often are unprotected and less robust appliances damaged? How often have you replaced a dishwasher, clocks, refrigerator, LED & CFL bulbs, door bell, furnace, garage door opener, and smoke detectors? What is protecting all them? Invisible protectors? Why implement a solution when a threat / anomaly is not even defined? Second, brownouts do not harm any electronics. Voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Even that is normal voltage for all electronics. If voltage drops lower, then electronics simply power off. International design standards, even long before the IBM PC existed, required electronics to suffer no damage on all voltages down to zero. One standard even included this expression in all capital letters: No Damage Region. Low voltage is a threat to motorized appliances. So, a utility must provide sufficient voltage or cut power off - to protect those less robust appliances. Third, your concern is a transient that occurs maybe once every seven years. Many will not see one even in 20 years. One 'whole house' protector is required to protect everything. Even comes with numbers that says how effective. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Then nobody is wasting time and effort unplugging everything. Even near zero joules in a power strip are protected. 'Whole house' solution is standard anywhere that damage cannot happen. This is a completely different anomaly. Each anomaly requires completely different solutions. All defined only when one includes the numbers. Long before anyone can recommend a solution, first the problem / threat / anomaly must be defined. Four, where is this power strip that limits current? The receptacle is only rated for 15 amps. So a power strip must have a 15 amp circuit breaker. IOW it limits current only when too much current is consumed. What appliance needs 15 amps? It if does, then its plug is shaped to not fit in that standard wall receptacle. "Current limiting power strips" are good for all currents up to its circuit breaker. Some strips are dangerous; do not have that necessary circuit breaker. What number (for what anomaly) causes you concern? Short answer: In the 15yrs I have lived here, never lost an appliance or even an incandescent bulb to a lightning strike/surge.
I think it was the latest round of brownouts we had during a high windstorm that got me paranoid. One of them lasted a good ten seconds, where current fluctuated enough to power off and on some of my devices multiple times in that span. So I wasn't sure in those instances if that would harm anything. Regarding normal surge protectors limiting current: when I Googled "surge protector audio amplifier", everywhere from Audiogon forums to AVS forums has most people saying that a normal power strip limits current to high powered amps, with many claiming better sound by simply plugging the amp/sub of question into the wall. Again, this is in regards to the cheapo surge protectors, like $20 APC ones on Amazon that don't even list a current draw/amp limit (as opposed to more expensive ones that advertise limits of 8A or 10A or 15A, etc)
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Post by KeithL on Jan 28, 2020 16:20:26 GMT -5
I happen to be a big fan of series-mode surge suppressors (which this is). The two main companies who manufacture them are SurgeX and BrickWall.
Unlike MOV-based surge suppressors, series-mode types are non-sacrificial (they don't wear out). They provide very good line filtering and protection from high frequency line noise.
Since they limit the surge, rather than shunt it to ground, they have a virtually unlimited ability to block current.
However, unlike MOVs, which are used in parallel, series-mode surge suppressors do impose a small line voltage drop (typically about 1 volt at rated load). Because of this, you do want to observe their maximum load ratings more closely than with other types.
NOTE that this model is rated at 8 Amps.....
(It also includes a lot of network bells and whistles that seem sort of unnecessary to me on a surge suppressor.)
I think you might want to look at this one instead for a big power amp... 1) Would the SurgeX Flatpack SA-82 be worth getting to at least use for my higher end/more expensive gear (amps, processor, sub)? 2) Would splitting the plugs on it to accommodate my XPA5, (2) BasX 150s, and my Arcam receiver (which isn't powering any speakers) be too much for one SA-82? I ask because I found one used on eBay that is under $100 but wasn't sure if even at that price it will offer more than the entry level APC surge protector I'm using now. |
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Post by westom on Jan 28, 2020 16:33:54 GMT -5
Looks like my Panamax-1 is totally working again! ... Anyone have some alternate universe explanation? Those symptoms are classic of a cold solder joint. Which requires visual inspection with a magnifying glass - typically five times or larger. Looking for microscopic cracks in solder that intermittently break an electrical connection. Unfortunately, intermittents are most difficult. Just another reason why we use heat (and sometimes cooling) to recreate that defect. Once made hard at higher (or lower) temperatures, then a defect is easier to locate. Unfortunately, in equipment we would usually work on, those temperatures where too extreme to measure with a probe or to inspect. The 'fun' of that challenge is another story. Using heat at 100 degrees F or refrigerator temperatures (ie 0 degrees C) can determine if an intermittent still exists. Brownouts can be created when your 'primary' protection layer connects a surge harmlessly to earth - on a path that does not enter via your AC service wire. Informed consumers inspect their 'primary' protection layer. A 'secondary' protection layer is an earthed 'whole house' protector. Protectors do nothing for brownouts. And brownouts do not damage properly designed electronics. Effective protection (distant from a house) may cause that temporary brownout. Breakers do nothing to protect from surges. Numbers make that obvious. Breaker takes tens of milliseconds or seconds to trip. Surges are done in microseconds. Also explains why surges are never blocked (by effective solutions). |
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Post by westom on Jan 28, 2020 16:50:08 GMT -5
I happen to be a big fan of series-mode surge suppressors (which this is). The two main companies who manufacture them are SurgeX and BrickWall. Unlike MOV-based surge suppressors, series-mode types are non-sacrificial (they don't wear out). They provide very good line filtering and protection from high frequency line noise. What series mode filters do good at: noise. They cannot do effective surge protection. Numbers make that obvious. Surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. Series mode protectors may 'absorb' a first 600 joules. (A surge so tiny that protection inside electronics already make that irrelevant.) Then saturation occurs. A series mode filter then becomes a conductor. Connects rest of that energy directly into nearby appliances. MOV protectors that fail on any surge are grossly undersized - a profit center. Just another reason why 'whole house' protectors are routinely used in facilities that cannot have damage. They also do not use series mode filters. Then hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly in earth. Then MOVs inside those properly designed protector devices remains functional for many decades Zerosurge pictures show what can happen to near zero joule protectors - a $3 power strip with five cent protector parts. They failed catastrophically. MOV manufacturers are quite blunt about this. Defective designs have MOVs that fail catastrophically. Effective protectors are designed so that MOVs only degrade. Do not fail for many decades after many direct lightning strikes. Zerosurge also show this other glaring problem with power strip protectors. MOVs are removed. Light says protection still exists: zerosurge.com/truth-about-movs/ MOVs remain best protection available - when designed to do protection and not designed near zero joules to maximize profits. |
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Post by ttocs on Jan 29, 2020 0:28:43 GMT -5
Looks like my Panamax-1 is totally working again! ... Anyone have some alternate universe explanation? Those symptoms are classic of a cold solder joint. You are correctomundo!! Although, it's not a cold solder joint, it's broken - likely from aging. It was really, really easy to spot once I used a magoflyer (magnifier). Other joints are not far behind this main culprit. It looks like most of the higher current joints are the ones showing age fractures. The radianting white marks look like flux spit, they radiate from a bunch of the solder joints.  So cudos my fellow forum compatriot! Thanks for suggesting this. I'll setup to do some touchups tomorrow night. edit: The fracturing might be accelerated on the relay contact due to vibration over the years of operation. Maybe it took the major electrical attack to make the weakest joint fail and be noticed ? |
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Post by westom on Jan 29, 2020 14:18:46 GMT -5
Although, it's not a cold solder joint, it's broken - likely from aging. Cold solder joint means manufacturing mistakes did not sufficient heat up the pin. That defective solder joint resulted in a defective connection that got worse with age. Picture shows missing solder because a pin and copper trace were too cold or other quality procedures were ignored. |
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