rsi77
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Post by rsi77 on Feb 3, 2020 18:41:22 GMT -5
I was shopping for a Pre-amp upgrade in order to be able to integrate my new DAC (TEAC NT-505) into my HT system and do it justice. At first I was looking at Marantz because of the purported SQ improvement in some of their "newer" models (7703+, 8802, 8805), but became aware of the Emotiva offering and now am probably going this route. However I am not sure which one to choose. Here is my current usage:
- HT with 4k/3d/HD Blu Ray collection, or streaming via LG TV
- I currently run 2 x HDMI out of Oppo 203--1 to LG tv for video, and 2nd to Marantz 6006 for HT sound
- 7.1 speaker system with no interest in adding more speakers
- Music via Roon ROCK + Roon endpoint = TEAC NT-505; SQ of 2.1 listening is very important
- Roon rock has USB streaming capability, So ability to play HD USB stream is a big +
As I see it now there is no reason to choose more than the XMC-1, even if it doesn't have the HDMI upgrade, UNLESS there is a substantial SQ upgrade for 2ch analog signal path with the XMC-2, or RMC-1L. Does anybody see it differently? I will never be switching between HDMI inputs because I have only the Oppo feeding HDMI to the pre/pro. If I do any switching it will be between HDMI (Oppo) / 2ch Analog In (NT-505 DAC) / USB streaming input (Roon ROCK). Is switching between these other inputs faster than the HDMI switching I've been reading about?
Possible advantages of XMC-2 or RMC-1L - SQ improvement for 7.1 sound (via HDMI input from Oppo) due to better DACs used
- SQ improvement for 2.1 sound (via NT-505 DAC analog out) -- Is there a noticeable improvement here?
- DSD streaming from Roon ROCK: as I understand it XMC-2 can stream DSD USB, but XMC-1 can only stream PCM (192kHz) -- is this correct? (This is not a big deal to me)
I appreciate any comments, I just want to make sure I'm not missing something. Thanks, Ron
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Post by routlaw on Feb 3, 2020 19:18:32 GMT -5
- HT with 4k/3d/HD Blu Ray collection, or streaming via LG TV
- I currently run 2 x HDMI out of Oppo 203--1 to LG tv for video, and 2nd to Marantz 6006 for HT sound
- 7.1 speaker system with no interest in adding more speakers
- Music via Roon ROCK + Roon endpoint = TEAC NT-505; SQ of 2.1 listening is very important
- Roon rock has USB streaming capability, So ability to play HD USB stream is a big +
As I see it now there is no reason to choose more than the XMC-1, even if it doesn't have the HDMI upgrade, UNLESS there is a substantial SQ upgrade for 2ch analog signal path with the XMC-2, or RMC-1L. Does anybody see it differently? I will never be switching between HDMI inputs because I have only the Oppo feeding HDMI to the pre/pro. If I do any switching it will be between HDMI (Oppo) / 2ch Analog In (NT-505 DAC) / USB streaming input (Roon ROCK). Is switching between these other inputs faster than the HDMI switching I've been reading about?
Possible advantages of XMC-2 or RMC-1L - SQ improvement for 7.1 sound (via HDMI input from Oppo) due to better DACs used
- SQ improvement for 2.1 sound (via NT-505 DAC analog out) -- Is there a noticeable improvement here?
- DSD streaming from Roon ROCK: as I understand it XMC-2 can stream DSD USB, but XMC-1 can only stream PCM (192kHz) -- is this correct? (This is not a big deal to me)
You don't mention what amps you are using or rather what type. Are they fully differentially balanced and if so the RMC-1L might be a worthwhile investment given that ALL of its outputs have a fully differential balanced design. The XMC-1 and XMC-2 will only have this for the 3 main front channels. Theoretically the new Pre-Pros might or should have some improvement due to the AKM dacs chips, the XMC-1 does not have this chip but rather a Burr Brown. Note some people think all DAC chips sound the same, I'm not one of them however. In audio never say never. You never know what the future might bring or what itch you feel you need to scratch at a later date. Hopefully this will help to some degree. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 3, 2020 23:10:21 GMT -5
Since you are not looking at Atmos then a 4K XMC-1 would be my choice. You are going to be using the DAC in TEAC NT-505 so any small (and it will be small) improvement in the XMC-2 or RMC-1L DAC is wasted. You are only using the pre amp in the XMC-1 which is very high quality.
I just have to ask, how are you planning on doing the bass management for 2.1 stereo music? If you are going to do it via the XMC-1 then having the TEAC NT-505 is a waste of money. The XMC-1 will do an ADC, bass management and then DAC so you won't be hearing the DAC in the TEAC.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by ÈlTwo on Feb 4, 2020 0:03:24 GMT -5
What Gary said! 
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Post by frenchyfranky on Feb 4, 2020 1:55:55 GMT -5
Maybe a slight sonic advantage for critical 2.1 music listening for the XMC-2 over the XMC-1 because the better performing of Dirac 96k version of the XMC-2 over the 48k for the XMC-1 and an improved circuitry audio path and components.
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rsi77
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Post by rsi77 on Feb 4, 2020 4:09:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the comments:
The amps I'm using are mostly vintage Hafler, only 1 of which has balanced input, so I don't think that is a big factor for me. Regarding DAC's I am also of the opinion that they do not all sound alike--but if the difference isn't huge I won't worry too much about it. The NT-505 is a good DAC so that is how I plan to listen to my music. I suspect the XMC-1 sounds plenty good on movies. The NT-505 is a Roon endpoint so it streams all my digital media as well as Tidal. I agree that it doesn't hurt to "buy up" even before you know you want it--I've never regretted buying more technology than I thought I needed at the time. But budget is an issue here too.
That's a good point. It will be interesting to see which I prefer. At present Audyssey XT32 does not do that much for me, so I don't use it. I don't have a perfect room, but it's pretty well treated both in the corners and on the wall. The fact that Audyssey doesn't change things much makes me think it's already pretty good. But Dirac may be a different story. If it sounds better with the correction I will use it and let NT-505 do the streaming work. But I may end up preferring the untouched output, as I do now. We will see.
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rsi77
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Post by rsi77 on Feb 4, 2020 4:17:38 GMT -5
Didn't know about that difference in Dirac--indeed that could be important. But it would be difficult to know without a side to side comparison. Better to just imagine it has no impact since I won't likely be able to prove otherwise. Alternatively I could imagine it makes a huge difference and thus justify the need to buy the XMC-2  |
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 4, 2020 8:37:29 GMT -5
Not sure if Dirac in the RMC/XMC-2 will be 96k; there's a few big discussions on it and it appears it'll be 48k with a chance it'll be higher.
Don't bother with the extra $1k on the rest of the channels being balanced; you'll never hear a difference from that. Use that money to buy something else that will actually improve your system - better/different source(s), new/bigger display, acoustic treatments, content, etc....
You could save a LOT of dough by going with a used XMC-1 now, enjoying it for some time and then check out the pre/pro landscape down the road and try something different then. For your use case, you'd be pretty hard pressed to be able to consistently identify a -1 vs. a -2 in blind listening tests, imo.
One caveat: ignoring the 48k/96k difference for now, Dirac 2 could be noticeably superior over Dirac 1 in the XMC-1. Whether it'll be $1k worth of superiority would be the really difficult thing to figure out.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 4, 2020 9:36:21 GMT -5
I would definitely go with the XMC-1 on this one... The biggest thing is simply that you have no plans to go past 7.1 channels - which is really the only significant limitation on the XMC-1.
Contrary to what some people seem to think, the DACs in the XMC-1 are actually very good, and not that far different from the ones in the XMC-2 and RMC-1.
I wouldn't bet that the DACs in the Teac are audibly better either.
The XMC-1 also has an excellent analog section.
Not sure if Dirac in the RMC/XMC-2 will be 96k; there's a few big discussions on it and it appears it'll be 48k with a chance it'll be higher. Don't bother with the extra $1k on the rest of the channels being balanced; you'll never hear a difference from that. Use that money to buy something else that will actually improve your system - better/different source(s), new/bigger display, acoustic treatments, content, etc.... You could save a LOT of dough by going with a used XMC-1 now, enjoying it for some time and then check out the pre/pro landscape down the road and try something different then. For your use case, you'd be pretty hard pressed to be able to consistently identify a -1 vs. a -2 in blind listening tests, imo. One caveat: ignoring the 48k/96k difference for now, Dirac 2 could be noticeably superior over Dirac 1 in the XMC-1. Whether it'll be $1k worth of superiority would be the really difficult thing to figure out. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 4, 2020 9:56:58 GMT -5
If you are really interested in this stuff, always buy up. You never know what you will want to change or need to change in the future. It's nice if a future decision does not have to make you replace some or all of your present equipment. Also, never say never - buying for present conditions and making excuses shows a lack of prescience.
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 4, 2020 10:30:28 GMT -5
I would definitely go with the XMC-1 on this one... The biggest thing is simply that you have no plans to go past 7.1 channels - which is really the only significant limitation on the XMC-1.
Contrary to what some people seem to think, the DACs in the XMC-1 are actually very good, and not that far different from the ones in the XMC-2 and RMC-1.
I wouldn't bet that the DACs in the Teac are audibly better either.
The XMC-1 also has an excellent analog section.
Not sure if Dirac in the RMC/XMC-2 will be 96k; there's a few big discussions on it and it appears it'll be 48k with a chance it'll be higher. Don't bother with the extra $1k on the rest of the channels being balanced; you'll never hear a difference from that. Use that money to buy something else that will actually improve your system - better/different source(s), new/bigger display, acoustic treatments, content, etc.... You could save a LOT of dough by going with a used XMC-1 now, enjoying it for some time and then check out the pre/pro landscape down the road and try something different then. For your use case, you'd be pretty hard pressed to be able to consistently identify a -1 vs. a -2 in blind listening tests, imo. One caveat: ignoring the 48k/96k difference for now, Dirac 2 could be noticeably superior over Dirac 1 in the XMC-1. Whether it'll be $1k worth of superiority would be the really difficult thing to figure out. What Keith said! The only problem I ever had with the XMC1 was Dolby Labs throwing a curve at us back in 2014. Bill |
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rsi77
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Post by rsi77 on Feb 4, 2020 13:32:34 GMT -5
Do we expect to see the refurbished units back in stock soon? Or how often are they actually available? I thought they were available a few days ago when I was first looking, but now they are not. Or perhaps they weren't available the whole time but I didn't notice because it wasn't yet decided that I wanted one. What I bid on Ebay will depend on how likely I will be able find the upgraded version here eventually.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Feb 4, 2020 13:38:38 GMT -5
Do we expect to see the refurbished units back in stock soon? Or how often are they actually available? I thought they were available a few days ago when I was first looking, but now they are not. Or perhaps they weren't available the whole time but I didn't notice because it wasn't yet decided that I wanted one. What I bid on Ebay will depend on how likely I will be able find the upgraded version here eventually. Call them to ask. The trade-in program just got some more help (from what I read), so there may be pending ones even now. Mark |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 4, 2020 14:10:44 GMT -5
I would definitely not buy the XMC1 unless you have average speakers. Either the XMC2 or RMC1L.
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 4, 2020 14:32:25 GMT -5
I would definitely not buy the XMC1 unless you have average speakers. Either the XMC2 or RMC1L. 🤪🤪🤪🤪 I’ve heard great 👍 things about “AVERAGE SPEAKERS “!! Anybody know where I can audition a pair?? |
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Post by routlaw on Feb 4, 2020 14:54:36 GMT -5
I would definitely not buy the XMC1 unless you have average speakers. Either the XMC2 or RMC1L. LOL, why on earth or how on earth did you come to this conclusion. Wow! |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 4, 2020 15:01:12 GMT -5
They are being done in batches of ten or so.... so they pop in and out of stock. Do we expect to see the refurbished units back in stock soon? Or how often are they actually available? I thought they were available a few days ago when I was first looking, but now they are not. Or perhaps they weren't available the whole time but I didn't notice because it wasn't yet decided that I wanted one. What I bid on Ebay will depend on how likely I will be able find the upgraded version here eventually. |
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rsi77
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Post by rsi77 on Feb 4, 2020 15:06:21 GMT -5
I guess the assumption is that you've heard the XMC-1 and the XMC-2 side by side with "better than average" speakers, and found there to be a significant difference--is this the case?
(BTW, I have Chane 2.4 for L-C-R. I like them, they were definitely an upgrade from my series 1 reference Paradigm bookshelf speakers I had prior.)
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 4, 2020 15:47:30 GMT -5
I would definitely not buy the XMC1 unless you have average speakers. Either the XMC2 or RMC1L. LOL, why on earth or how on earth did you come to this conclusion. Wow! First I only had a few moments between my meetings lol. Obviously my wording wasn’t the best but what I should have replied with my first instinct. That is, the person asking the question is the best one to decide. My horrible point was that if you are investing a large amount of money into your gear, get the one that’s supposed to sound better and can handle the latest Dolby and DTS surround modes. Please disregard my rushed post(s). 🤦♂️😂 |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 4, 2020 16:03:41 GMT -5
I guess the assumption is that you've heard the XMC-1 and the XMC-2 side by side with "better than average" speakers, and found there to be a significant difference--is this the case? (BTW, I have Chane 2.4 for L-C-R. I like them, they were definitely an upgrade from my series 1 reference Paradigm bookshelf speakers I had prior.)
I have owned both the XMC1 and XMC2 but not at the same time. My main speakers are the Revel F208 while they are not the salon2, are definitely above average and quite revealing. It’s obviously hard to tell from memory which one is better especially since the XMC1 was sold over a year ago. But with the XMC1, in reference stereo mode my speakers were too bright, while with the XMC2, they sound more listenable. This is just one person’s opinion. Also the reason why I said what I said is that for me it’s ridiculous to spend $3000-4000 on a processor if that money could be used towards better speakers and just get the XMC1. That was my point and I apologize if I came across the wrong way. I’m always trying to help my friends build the best system within their budget and I would never recommend the single most expensive piece of equipment would be a processor that generally has the shortest life span. |
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