RMC-1/RMC-1L/XMC-2 Owners Thread (Post Firmware v1.10)

[retrobill]

I am still having the problem with ARC. Does not matter if I power on my TV first or my RMC-1, In order to get ARC to work I have to go to another input, I go to menu, then right arrow to HDMIARC, up arrow, then down arrow back to HDMIARC and then I get audio

[AudioHTIT]

May 27, 2020 2:43:45 GMT -5 bluescale said:

May 26, 2020 21:24:53 GMT -5 geebo said:

I'm going to see if I can find some more 5.1 PCM 48kHz material to try.

Haven't had a chance to play with it at all, but here's some PCM 5.1 trailers:

thedigitaltheater.com/avengers-infinity-war-2018/

In fact, their entire trailer section has a lot to choose from, although you have to click through to figure out which ones have a PCM track, and which ones have something else:

thedigitaltheater.com/master-trailer-list/

I suggested that site a couple weeks ago, I’ve downloaded several but so far they all sound pretty good, other than the volume differences everyone’s noted. However they have virtually every format, and everyone can get them.

[hsamwel]

May 25, 2020 13:47:44 GMT -5 markc said:

May 25, 2020 12:12:05 GMT -5 marcl said:

At the risk of sadistic hippophilic necrophilia :-)     I have a Donald Fagen box with three of his albums on DVD in Dolby Surround 5.1, DTS Surround 5.1 and PCM Stereo 48/24.   Wow are the results of this weird!   The Dolby sounds great in both Surround and DD Surround upmix, equal volume for both.  Stereo sounds good, same level as Dolby Surround.  And Stereo sounds good and similar level upmixed with DD Surround.  Stereo sounds thin and weird upmixed to DTS Neural:X, and is about 5db lower level.  But the weirdest thing is playing the DTS Surround 5.1.  It's unlistenable and even a bit scary in that the bass is so heavy and the highs are nearly gone, and the keyboards actually sound out of tune!  It's almost like wow and flutter.  Completely messed up surround and nothing like the Dolby sound.  It's maybe like a couple of the surround channels are just missing.   Anyway FWIW.   And ... let me pile on my ongoing complaint, that multichannel PCM music (5.1, 5.0) that is neither Dolby nor DTS ... does not upmix with either.

My Nightfly is SACD - Stereo and Multichannel. I hadn't listened to it in a while, but now I am as I write this!
At least dts Neural:X leaves that alone!

Megash0n, I confirmed your collapsed sound with the Tie Fighters in Star Wars III - it just sounds typical of the issue I have been getting all along, and again makes me think sound is getting upmixed into a void somewhere with lost audio.

Can we agree then, that enough of us are getting a SIGNIFICANT issue with Neural:X so that LCSeminole could raise on our behalf my snag list ~I posted at the weekend:

Bugs that I think need to be raised:
(2&4 relate to problems with the function of dts Neural:X upmixing/action, 1 and 3 are additional and separate issues, but brought to light by the faulty Neural:X)

1) Front Wide channel configuration to Bi-amp the Fronts works to duplicate the Front left and right but causes both Dolby Surround Upmixer and dts Neural:X upmixers to be called in to use when not needed. (e.g. Playing 7.1 in a 7.1 system)

2) There is NO WAY on these processors to reliably up-mix 5.1 dts to use all speakers in a 7.1 configuration. The Neural:X is not always doing the expected and usual simple job of just extracting audio from the Side Surrounds to fill the rear surrounds

3) When Auto mode selects a Surround mode based on what signal is being played, the correct Upmixer way well be displayed on the front panel, but is not always actually working (So still no 5.1 to 76.1 upmixing). Mostly toggling this manually with the Setup/Main menu fixes it but sometimes it doesn't.

4) dts Neural:X is producing unexpected behaviour in 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing (and, for Megash0n, 5.1/7.1 to 7.1.4) (and also in the "7.1 to 7.1" that occurs with bi-amping enabled!) . This type of upmixing should NOT affect the three front channels (making dialogue indistinct in particular and lowering the overall volume as a result)

First I went into the setup and disabled my top speakers. Having a 7.2 setup.
Everything played from bluray, bitstreamed.

Edit: All speakers small with 90hz crossover.

I tried the bluray of Star Wars 3. It has a DTS-HD MA 6.1 track. I can’t choose Neural:X, not being available in
the modes list. Surround is chosen when selecting auto mode. No difference at all with the sound IMO.

Played The Others with a 5.1 DTS-HD MA track, switched between Surround and Neural:X. No apparent difference,
volume is the same.. Mostly voices and sutle sounds, old movie not high quality.

Tried Eric Clapton, Slowhand At 70, DTS-HD MA 96khz 24bit.. When switching I first didn’t notice anything.
But after a couple of switches back and forth I noticed a kind of vail over the sound, like the midrange has
been lowered or if a filter was set. Everything seems a little bit muddier. No volume difference though.

Then tried Lone Survivor, DTS-HD MA 5.1. Notices the difference between Surround and Neural :X
instantly. The same as with Eric Clapton.

This, as has been noted, is probably a Neural:X issue. When the sound is not clear, it’s not easy to notice.

[rhale64]

May 28, 2020 9:37:44 GMT -5 retrobill said:

I am still having the problem with ARC. Does not matter if I power on my TV first or my RMC-1, In order to get ARC to work I have to go to another input, I go to menu, then right arrow to HDMIARC, up arrow, then down arrow back to HDMIARC and then I get audio

Wow I may have to try this. I have never got HDMI ARC to work on my LG B8 tv I was wondering what I am doing wrong.

[Gerard]

Does the new firmware 1.10 remove the limitation on Dolby up-mixing on DTS encoded tracks?

[megash0n]

Ok, I have an interesting update. I disabled my heights to run just a 5.1 config. Obviously, I have no way to upmix with this config, but wanted to verify. Then, I enabled my rears, which I don't have. Same DTS issue. Seemed identical. I disabled the rears and then changed my heights to TOPS. What I experienced was very different. Now, between Surround and DTS Neural, the SPL is so close that I'm not sure it is different without measuring. It does seem to be a bit bass heavier as noted earlier by someone else. But, this actually sounded better than Surround. Better as in... I didn't feel like I could notice anything missing and could appreciate the up mixing to the height channels. I do not some slight tonal differences and such, but Im unsure with this quick test if it is better or worse. Overall, it seems as if using Tops instead of Heights does the up mixing correctly for DTS. I'M curious what others find from testing like this. My settings were Heights instead of Tops. I did not see how this impacted Atmos.
The movie was The Dark Knight Rises UHD.

[steelman1991]

May 28, 2020 12:31:46 GMT -5 Gerard said:

Does the new firmware 1.10 remove the limitation on Dolby up-mixing on DTS encoded tracks?

Unfortunately no.

[steelman1991]

May 28, 2020 13:01:28 GMT -5 megash0n said:

Overall, it seems as if using Tops instead of Heights does the up mixing correctly for DTS. I'M curious what others find from testing like this. My settings were Heights instead of Tops. I did not see how this impacted Atmos.
The movie was The Dark Knight Rises UHD.

Which is equally strange because - Tops are used in Dolby and Heights in DTS, so it would seem logical that the opposite should be the experience lol.

EDIT - how are you guys enabling speakers you don't have, surely you shouldn't be able to do that if they aren't connected?

[megash0n]

May 28, 2020 13:14:18 GMT -5 steelman1991 said:

May 28, 2020 13:01:28 GMT -5 megash0n said:

Overall, it seems as if using Tops instead of Heights does the up mixing correctly for DTS. I'M curious what others find from testing like this. My settings were Heights instead of Tops. I did not see how this impacted Atmos.
The movie was The Dark Knight Rises UHD.

Which is equally strange because - Tops are used in Dolby and Heights in DTS, so it would seem logical that the opposite should be the experience lol.

Precisely

[megash0n]

May 28, 2020 13:14:18 GMT -5 steelman1991 said:

May 28, 2020 13:01:28 GMT -5 megash0n said:

Overall, it seems as if using Tops instead of Heights does the up mixing correctly for DTS. I'M curious what others find from testing like this. My settings were Heights instead of Tops. I did not see how this impacted Atmos.
The movie was The Dark Knight Rises UHD.

Which is equally strange because - Tops are used in Dolby and Heights in DTS, so it would seem logical that the opposite should be the experience lol.

EDIT - how are you guys enabling speakers you don't have, surely you shouldn't be able to do that if they aren't connected?

They enable regardless. I'm doubtful the processor is looking for resistance on the port to determine whether or not they are there.

[steelman1991]

May 28, 2020 13:46:56 GMT -5 megash0n said:

May 28, 2020 13:14:18 GMT -5 steelman1991 said:

Which is equally strange because - Tops are used in Dolby and Heights in DTS, so it would seem logical that the opposite should be the experience lol.

EDIT - how are you guys enabling speakers you don't have, surely you shouldn't be able to do that if they aren't connected?

They enable regardless. I'm doubtful the processor is looking for resistance on the port to determine whether or not they are there.

Which again I would reckon is strange practice. I'm sure my previous Pioneer wouldn't give the option to enable speakers that didn't have a connection. Perhaps not though since it's some time since I set that unit up.

[KeithL]

A processor basically has no way of knowing what speakers you connected (unless you run the automatic room correction).

It would be possible for a processor to detect which outputs are connected to the inputs of an amplifier...

But that is difficult to do reliably... and I know of NO current model that does so.

It would also be possible for an amplifier or AVR to know which outputs had speakers connected to them...

But, again, I don't know of ANY current models that do so.

However, with some AVRs, and some processors, the AUTOMATIC ROOM CORRECTION SOFTWARE will sense this.

(When the room correction plays its test tones it simply "notes" which channels are silent and assumes there are no speakers connected to them.)

However, OUR processors don't work this way... for three reasons.

- First of all, we assume you know how many speakers you have, and where you connected them.

- Second, that only works if you run the automatic room correction, and not if you set them up manually.

- Third, on our higher-end processors, you can enable different speakers on different Speaker Presets.

   (So we assume that you may wish to set some speakers you actually have connected to "none" in one of the presets.)

May 28, 2020 14:22:23 GMT -5 steelman1991 said:

May 28, 2020 13:46:56 GMT -5 megash0n said:

They enable regardless. I'm doubtful the processor is looking for resistance on the port to determine whether or not they are there.

Which again I would reckon is strange practice. I'm sure my previous Pioneer wouldn't give the option to enable speakers that didn't have a connection. Perhaps not though since it's some time since I set that unit up.

[steelman1991]

May 28, 2020 14:38:55 GMT -5 KeithL said:

A processor basically has no way of knowing what speakers you connected (unless you run the automatic room correction).

It would be possible for a processor to detect which outputs are connected to the inputs of an amplifier...

But that is difficult to do reliably... and I know of NO current model that does so.

It would also be possible for an amplifier or AVR to know which outputs had speakers connected to them...

But, again, I don't know of ANY current models that do so.

However, with some AVRs, and some processors, the AUTOMATIC ROOM CORRECTION SOFTWARE will sense this.

(When the room correction plays its test tones it simply "notes" which channels are silent and assumes there are no speakers connected to them.)

However, OUR processors don't work this way... for three reasons.

- First of all, we assume you know how many speakers you have, and where you connected them.

- Second, that only works if you run the automatic room correction, and not if you set them up manually.

- Third, on our higher-end processors, you can enable different speakers on different Speaker Presets.

   (So we assume that you may wish to set some speakers you actually have connected to "none" in one of the presets.)

May 28, 2020 14:22:23 GMT -5 steelman1991 said:

Which again I would reckon is strange practice. I'm sure my previous Pioneer wouldn't give the option to enable speakers that didn't have a connection. Perhaps not though since it's some time since I set that unit up.

Thanks Keith that may we’ll be what I’m remembering from my days with the Pioneer. It’s been so long.

[bluescale]

May 28, 2020 13:01:28 GMT -5 megash0n said:

Ok, I have an interesting update. I disabled my heights to run just a 5.1 config. Obviously, I have no way to upmix with this config, but wanted to verify. Then, I enabled my rears, which I don't have. Same DTS issue. Seemed identical. I disabled the rears and then changed my heights to TOPS. What I experienced was very different. Now, between Surround and DTS Neural, the SPL is so close that I'm not sure it is different without measuring. It does seem to be a bit bass heavier as noted earlier by someone else. But, this actually sounded better than Surround. Better as in... I didn't feel like I could notice anything missing and could appreciate the up mixing to the height channels. I do not some slight tonal differences and such, but Im unsure with this quick test if it is better or worse. Overall, it seems as if using Tops instead of Heights does the up mixing correctly for DTS. I'M curious what others find from testing like this. My settings were Heights instead of Tops. I did not see how this impacted Atmos.
The movie was The Dark Knight Rises UHD.

Interesting. Assuming UPS doesn’t screw me again, my A1s should arrive today. I plan to set them up as tops. I’ll test with this when I get a chance.

[AudioHTIT]

May 28, 2020 13:14:18 GMT -5 steelman1991 said:

May 28, 2020 13:01:28 GMT -5 megash0n said:

Overall, it seems as if using Tops instead of Heights does the up mixing correctly for DTS. I'M curious what others find from testing like this. My settings were Heights instead of Tops. I did not see how this impacted Atmos.
The movie was The Dark Knight Rises UHD.

Which is equally strange because - Tops are used in Dolby and Heights in DTS, so it would seem logical that the opposite should be the experience lol.

EDIT - how are you guys enabling speakers you don't have, surely you shouldn't be able to do that if they aren't connected?

This is another reason having those extra Dirac slots will be nice. Within say your Home Theatre Speaker preset, you can have separate configs for Dolby (w/Tops) and DTS (w/Heights). Though maybe they won’t let you change that within a single preset?

[markc]

May 28, 2020 13:14:18 GMT -5 steelman1991 said:

May 28, 2020 13:01:28 GMT -5 megash0n said:

Overall, it seems as if using Tops instead of Heights does the up mixing correctly for DTS. I'M curious what others find from testing like this. My settings were Heights instead of Tops. I did not see how this impacted Atmos.
The movie was The Dark Knight Rises UHD.

Which is equally strange because - Tops are used in Dolby and Heights in DTS, so it would seem logical that the opposite should be the experience lol.

EDIT - how are you guys enabling speakers you don't have, surely you shouldn't be able to do that if they aren't connected?

And therefore probably not strange at all, and is, I believe, a plausible underlying cause of both the bi-amp problem and the Neural:X problem in the XMC-2 and RMC

Because Dolby and dts use different speaker nomenclature and configuration, the processor has to do some translation from user-input speaker selection And flag this to the decoder / upmixer for the Dolby Surround, Dolby Atmos, dts:X and dts Neural:X upmixers. 

The settings for tops and heights are different selections within each speaker config. But they are used interchangeably. The XMC-2 / RMC-1 has to report the heights as being tops to the Dolby upmixer and flag them as heights to the DTS upmixer.
Or, tops are reputed as tops to the Dolby and as heights to dts.
Front widths are not used in DTS so should be discounted and their presence ignored AND no output to them BUT I’ve proved that having front widths (or having the front widths set to bi-amp) activates the DTS upmixer when it should not be.

As I have said all along, with Neural:X upmixer activated, I am certain that audio meant for a speaker that I don’t have in my configuration is being extracted from the other channels and discarded. Nothing else explains what I am experiencing and hearing, both the volume drop and the loss of soundstage / channel separation.

Somehow, there is an internal flag being fed to the Neural:X telling it I have a different speaker configuration than I actually have and Neural:X is extracting correlated/decorrelated audio from the main channels and being sent to those non existent speakers and lost from my room.

[megash0n]

May 28, 2020 14:22:23 GMT -5 steelman1991 said:

May 28, 2020 13:46:56 GMT -5 megash0n said:

They enable regardless. I'm doubtful the processor is looking for resistance on the port to determine whether or not they are there.

Which again I would reckon is strange practice. I'm sure my previous Pioneer wouldn't give the option to enable speakers that didn't have a connection. Perhaps not though since it's some time since I set that unit up.

Electronically, how would you know it was connected? Some resistance on the line? It couldn't be digital because then it wouldn't be compatible with everything. And then, what resistance are you expecting to be good or bad?

[ttocs]

Can anyone point me to a web page which states an official DTS:X / Neural:X speaker setup and layout please? Can't find it.

Also, I may have missed this here in the Lounge, but, I've been reading that speaker volume can change where sounds come from.
This quote is from: rantingsofamadaudiophile.wordpress.com/2017/05/20/dtsx-vs-dolby-atmos-part-ii-dolby-surround-vs-dts-neuralx/

"Sounds can be panned by altering the volume between channels, for example, pink noise mixed into the front and rear channels can be remapped into the front heights channels by reducing the volume or the rear channels by 12dB. Using this, I was able to create a full 360 degree circling around the room using pink noise and a 7.1 channel mix."

If this is true, then when we set the levels for our systems, are we then altering how Neural:X is handling the mix?

[megash0n]

May 28, 2020 16:43:53 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Can anyone point me to a web page which states an official DTS:X / Neural:X speaker setup and layout please? Can't find it.

Also, I may have missed this here in the Lounge, but, I've been reading that speaker volume can change where sounds come from.
This quote is from: rantingsofamadaudiophile.wordpress.com/2017/05/20/dtsx-vs-dolby-atmos-part-ii-dolby-surround-vs-dts-neuralx/

"Sounds can be panned by altering the volume between channels, for example, pink noise mixed into the front and rear channels can be remapped into the front heights channels by reducing the volume or the rear channels by 12dB. Using this, I was able to create a full 360 degree circling around the room using pink noise and a 7.1 channel mix."

If this is true, then when we set the levels for our systems, are we then altering how Neural:X is handling the mix?

I think the understanding is there is no official layout.

[SteveH]

May 27, 2020 0:13:34 GMT -5 zanmato7 said:

May 22, 2020 12:07:59 GMT -5 SteveH said:

FW 1.10 corrected my inoperative ARC with a Samsung Q80R TV, all is good now. I also notice better performance with audio/video pass-through in Standby.

Hello, I had got the same problem with my Panasonic GZ2000. FW 1.10 corrected my inoperative ARC with worked very well until 2 days ago. Since 2 days, ARC doesn't work and also autopower on through the TV.
I didn't change any setting, but I finaly desactivate everything waitting for find a resolution of my problem.
Is it possible that my HDMI ARC output is domaged ?
But this one send well the image of all my connected devices on my Tv.
I'm French, sorry if I made mistakes.

Greetings from the United States! I do not use ARC regularly, but I will try it more than I normally do so I can try to duplicate your issue and I will keep you posted.  I just went and tried my ARC and at this moment in time, it still works fine.

Steve