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Post by markc on May 29, 2020 13:22:51 GMT -5
Well, a busy day with my XMC-2 and some good and bad news on the Neural;X issue what I did - Factory reset
- Make minimal changes to settings
- Video on standby enabled was necessary as the second or third step after multiple hangs and false restarts and hard reboots necessary just by navigating the menus to input the 7.1 speaker configuration. Video on standby made my XMC usable. Without it, it hangs all the time.
- Speaker setup changed to standard 7.1. No levels or distances put in. I put identical setup in configuration 1 & 2
- dts 5.1 and 7.1 and PCM begins.
The good news: dts Neural:X now just gives a 6dB volume decrease compared with Dolby Surround and Surround listening mode. (it seems to vary by 5.5-6.5 dB depending on the source) The previous smearing of channels seems to have gone. how I confirmed this: - My HTPC is connected to HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 inputs via a 4K splitter. Usually HDMI 1 is set to “All Large” for music
- I set Input HDMI 1 to be trimmed -6dB and to use “Auto” as the default 5.1 surround mode
- I set Input HDMI 2 to use “Surround” as the default 5.1 Surround Mode
- No other changes at all
- This allowed me to flip between Inputs 1 & 2, the same way as I did before the factory reset, giving a flip from surround to Neural:X with the 6dB volume compensated for so they were the same volume
after the factory reset, this completely changed the action of Neural:X!
it now seems to just be a volume decrease of 6dB (still too much as this is a 50% decrease in sound pressure so source changes still requires reaching for the remote so I hope it can be rectified!)
The bad news:
I struggled, as ever, to get Neural:X to reliably engage. This is for 5.1 dts sources using Auto or dts Neural:X, or for 5.1 PCM using dts Neural:X manual or automatic setting. This is really rubbish. I had this before the factory reset too. Far too many times the Neural:X was displayed on the front panel after selecting but wasn’t actually active as there was no upmixing of 5.1 sources to the rear 7.1 channels. 9the lack of an abrupt volume decrease is also a giveaway)
This is far too sketchy for me. To avoid the paranoia of getting up from my seat to listen to the rear speakers and to avoid the volume decrease with dts Neural:X on these processors, I am not using DTS! My HTPC is set to convert dts to PCM, so I can use Dolby Surround instead and my OPPO blu-ray played is outputting PCM for everything. Bit sad to have a £3500 processor not adequately presenting bitstreamed dts In a simple 7.1 setup
Bad news number two.
Another factory reset, as I wanted to test the “Bi-amp fronts” using the Front Wide outputs separately.
Discussions on the merits of passive bi-amping aside, the use of this facility on the XMC-2 (and presumably therefore the RMC-1) cannot be recommended.
I didn’t bother actually connecting speakers to the Front Wide outputs of the processor, but just having the “Bi-amp” setting enabled caused upmixing to be enabled in “Auto” when it should not be.
Dolby Surround is enabled for 7.1 sources in a 7.1 setup (although no audible change)
dts Neural:X is enabled for 7.1 sources in a 7.1 setup with the undesirable 6dB volume decrease
Final move: I simply restored my previous settings from the internal memory. factory reset and reload settings seems to have sorted the appalling sound with Neural:X, hopefully for good. Things that would be nice to be fixed: 1) volume decrease with Neural:X ( it doesn’t happen on a Marantz 8805) so is probably not part of the Neural:X specification and I really should not have to be reaching for the remote when source changes from Dolby to dts 2) Speaker configuration flags when using bi-amp via Front Wide outputs causes Dolby and dts upmixers to be engaged unnecessarily. |
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Post by bluescale on May 29, 2020 14:27:27 GMT -5
I got hopeful, because there was indeed a solder point between pins 1 and 3. Alas, snipping it made no difference. It did show me, however, just how cheaply made these connectors are. That's some very shoddy workmanship. Hopefully I read everything in the thread. I have had ground loop problems in my room before and having all balanced connections solved that. I had a similar issue recently when connecting a new pair of speakers using adapters. I had a whine only through those speakers. I got a transformer-type adapter to convert from Balanced to unbalanced and the whine went away. But I saw that you said your system is on one dedicated circuit so I thought ground loop would be unlikely... but still, this solution may work for you. So then I added a pair of powered rear surrounds that were on loan from a friend. I ran RCA cables to them using the same connector adapters I had used before. No whine from the speakers. But, they were plugged into a different circuit. artproaudio.com/product/dti-dual-transformer-isolator/I’m not an expert on groundloop hum, but I’m certain this is not that. At least not what I think of as groundloop hum. What I’m hearing is DEFINITELY amplification of the buzz/whine *inside* the XMC-2. I can’t do a 1 to 1 comparison, because my receivers in the other rooms don’t have XLR connectors, but I brought one of them into my theater room, set it up as a preamp, connected to the A500x and I get absolutely no whine. |
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Post by steelman1991 on May 29, 2020 14:34:32 GMT -5
@ markc - don't remember you mentioning the "4K splitter", before, but I might just have missed it. Now I'm sure in your extensive testing you probably have done this already, but have you tried without it in the chain? More to test against the "lack of engagement" rather than overall playback and volume differences. I'm going to try your bi-amp test (on an RMC-1) to see if I can replicate your issue. Be back shortly. |
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Post by bluescale on May 29, 2020 14:51:16 GMT -5
I got hopeful, because there was indeed a solder point between pins 1 and 3. Alas, snipping it made no difference. It did show me, however, just how cheaply made these connectors are. That's some very shoddy workmanship. Aside from the jumper, is there a wire connected to pin 3..? If so, break that connection too. As jonstatt pointed out, who knows what they’ve done at the RCA side of the adapter. In a properly constructed adapter, pin 1 should connect to the RCA ring (typically using the cable shield) and pin 2 should connect to the RCA tip. Pin 3 of the XLR side should not be used at all. I’m having a hard time visualizing how this should look. There is a single wire in these adapters. This wire runs from pin 2 to the RCA end. I don’t see anything else. As far as I can tell, pin 1 and 3 are there purely for show. Here’s the adapter I purchased. I picked it up because Someone in the comments mentioned using it with the RML-1L. There’s a more recent comment about him that I don’t think was there when I purchased it: RCA Female to XLR Female, HOSONGIN RCA Female to 3PIN XLR Female Heavy Duty Metal Audio, 1 Pack www.amazon.com/dp/B07Z9516KL/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_0Aw0EbJ1VDZN9 |
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Post by steelman1991 on May 29, 2020 14:52:51 GMT -5
Discussions on the merits of passive bi-amping aside, the use of this facility on the XMC-2 (and presumably therefore the RMC-1) cannot be recommended.
I didn’t bother actually connecting speakers to the Front Wide outputs of the processor, but just having the “Bi-amp” setting enabled caused upmixing to be enabled in “Auto” when it should not be.
Is there a techinical reason why you wouldn't expect upmixing of for example a 5.1 source, with a 7.1 set-up and the wides enabled? |
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Post by bluescale on May 29, 2020 14:52:51 GMT -5
@ markc - don't remember you mentioning the "4K splitter", before, but I might just have missed it. Now I'm sure in your extensive testing you probably have done this already, but have you tried without it in the chain? More to test against the "lack of engagement" rather than overall playback and volume differences. I'm going to try your bi-amp test (on an RMC-1) to see if I can replicate your issue. Be back shortly. I don’t have a splitter, and I have the exact same issue, so I don’t think that’s part of it. |
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Post by steelman1991 on May 29, 2020 14:54:02 GMT -5
@ markc - don't remember you mentioning the "4K splitter", before, but I might just have missed it. Now I'm sure in your extensive testing you probably have done this already, but have you tried without it in the chain? More to test against the "lack of engagement" rather than overall playback and volume differences. I'm going to try your bi-amp test (on an RMC-1) to see if I can replicate your issue. Be back shortly. I don’t have a splitter, and I have the exact same issue, so I don’t think that’s part of it. Yeah was a bit of a throw away line. Clutching at straws really. |
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Post by doc1963 on May 29, 2020 15:45:04 GMT -5
Yep... because the new Emotiva cables are wired ideally...  It is not a good idea to drive voltage into ground. Basically, it wont happen so it stresses the system. Do not connect the positive and negative pins together. - Rich Not sure why you're quoting me Rich... I've never suggested driving voltage to ground... Emotiva's cables are wired exactly as I'v mentioned in previous posts. Pin 3 (the reversed "hot" signal) is not connected. |
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richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
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Post by richb on May 29, 2020 15:47:01 GMT -5
It is not a good idea to drive voltage into ground. Basically, it wont happen so it stresses the system. Do not connect the positive and negative pins together. - Rich Not sure why you're quoting me Rich... I've never suggested driving voltage to ground... Emotiva's cables are wired exactly as I'v mentioned in previous posts. Pin 3 (the reversed "hot" signal) is not connected. Sorry, I misread. - Rich |
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Post by doc1963 on May 29, 2020 15:53:39 GMT -5
Aside from the jumper, is there a wire connected to pin 3..? If so, break that connection too. As jonstatt pointed out, who knows what they’ve done at the RCA side of the adapter. In a properly constructed adapter, pin 1 should connect to the RCA ring (typically using the cable shield) and pin 2 should connect to the RCA tip. Pin 3 of the XLR side should not be used at all. I’m having a hard time visualizing how this should look. There is a single wire in these adapters. This wire runs from pin 2 to the RCA end. I don’t see anything else. As far as I can tell, pin 1 and 3 are there purely for show. Here’s the adapter I purchased. I picked it up because Someone in the comments mentioned using it with the RML-1L. There’s a more recent comment about him that I don’t think was there when I purchased it: RCA Female to XLR Female, HOSONGIN RCA Female to 3PIN XLR Female Heavy Duty Metal Audio, 1 Pack www.amazon.com/dp/B07Z9516KL/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_0Aw0EbJ1VDZN9See attached...  |
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Post by retrobill on May 29, 2020 16:38:53 GMT -5
I am still having the problem with ARC. Does not matter if I power on my TV first or my RMC-1, In order to get ARC to work I have to go to another input, I go to menu, then right arrow to HDMIARC, up arrow, then down arrow back to HDMIARC and then I get audio Is ARC your default RMC-1 power-up input selection? Have you tried making ARC a preset on the remote and given that try? FW 1.10 has corrected my ARC issues. I have a Samsung Q80R and ARC would not work prior to FW 1.10. My RMC-1 default power up is my DAC on Analog 1. I do not have a preset for ARC, so I always have to cycle through inputs to 'switch' to ARC and I have had no problems. Yes my default power up is ARC and I have setup buttons on my remote to go to another input and back and still doesn't work |
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Post by bluescale on May 29, 2020 16:43:32 GMT -5
I’m having a hard time visualizing how this should look. There is a single wire in these adapters. This wire runs from pin 2 to the RCA end. I don’t see anything else. As far as I can tell, pin 1 and 3 are there purely for show. Here’s the adapter I purchased. I picked it up because Someone in the comments mentioned using it with the RML-1L. There’s a more recent comment about him that I don’t think was there when I purchased it: RCA Female to XLR Female, HOSONGIN RCA Female to 3PIN XLR Female Heavy Duty Metal Audio, 1 Pack www.amazon.com/dp/B07Z9516KL/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_0Aw0EbJ1VDZN9See attached... View AttachmentThanks. It’s definitely not that. A single cable from pin 2 to the RCA cable. |
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Post by hsamwel on May 29, 2020 16:43:50 GMT -5
Well, a busy day with my XMC-2 and some good and bad news on the Neural;X issue what I did - Factory reset
- Make minimal changes to settings
- Video on standby enabled was necessary as the second or third step after multiple hangs and false restarts and hard reboots necessary just by navigating the menus to input the 7.1 speaker configuration. Video on standby made my XMC usable. Without it, it hangs all the time.
- Speaker setup changed to standard 7.1. No levels or distances put in. I put identical setup in configuration 1 & 2
- dts 5.1 and 7.1 and PCM begins.
The good news: dts Neural:X now just gives a 6dB volume decrease compared with Dolby Surround and Surround listening mode. (it seems to vary by 5.5-6.5 dB depending on the source) The previous smearing of channels seems to have gone. how I confirmed this: - My HTPC is connected to HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 inputs via a 4K splitter. Usually HDMI 1 is set to “All Large” for music
- I set Input HDMI 1 to be trimmed -6dB and to use “Auto” as the default 5.1 surround mode
- I set Input HDMI 2 to use “Surround” as the default 5.1 Surround Mode
- No other changes at all
- This allowed me to flip between Inputs 1 & 2, the same way as I did before the factory reset, giving a flip from surround to Neural:X with the 6dB volume compensated for so they were the same volume
after the factory reset, this completely changed the action of Neural:X!
it now seems to just be a volume decrease of 6dB (still too much as this is a 50% decrease in sound pressure so source changes still requires reaching for the remote so I hope it can be rectified!)
The bad news:
I struggled, as ever, to get Neural:X to reliably engage. This is for 5.1 dts sources using Auto or dts Neural:X, or for 5.1 PCM using dts Neural:X manual or automatic setting. This is really rubbish. I had this before the factory reset too. Far too many times the Neural:X was displayed on the front panel after selecting but wasn’t actually active as there was no upmixing of 5.1 sources to the rear 7.1 channels. 9the lack of an abrupt volume decrease is also a giveaway)
This is far too sketchy for me. To avoid the paranoia of getting up from my seat to listen to the rear speakers and to avoid the volume decrease with dts Neural:X on these processors, I am not using DTS! My HTPC is set to convert dts to PCM, so I can use Dolby Surround instead and my OPPO blu-ray played is outputting PCM for everything. Bit sad to have a £3500 processor not adequately presenting bitstreamed dts In a simple 7.1 setup
Bad news number two.
Another factory reset, as I wanted to test the “Bi-amp fronts” using the Front Wide outputs separately.
Discussions on the merits of passive bi-amping aside, the use of this facility on the XMC-2 (and presumably therefore the RMC-1) cannot be recommended.
I didn’t bother actually connecting speakers to the Front Wide outputs of the processor, but just having the “Bi-amp” setting enabled caused upmixing to be enabled in “Auto” when it should not be.
Dolby Surround is enabled for 7.1 sources in a 7.1 setup (although no audible change)
dts Neural:X is enabled for 7.1 sources in a 7.1 setup with the undesirable 6dB volume decrease
Final move: I simply restored my previous settings from the internal memory. factory reset and reload settings seems to have sorted the appalling sound with Neural:X, hopefully for good. Things that would be nice to be fixed: 1) volume decrease with Neural:X ( it doesn’t happen on a Marantz 8805) so is probably not part of the Neural:X specification and I really should not have to be reaching for the remote when source changes from Dolby to dts 2) Speaker configuration flags when using bi-amp via Front Wide outputs causes Dolby and dts upmixers to be engaged unnecessarily. Are you saying all muddy sound disappeared from 7.x setup using after your factory reset? If you’ve read my post I have concluded that any upmix without top speakers creates muddy sound on my system. I did not even have a volume difference when top speakers are engaged with Neural:X. |
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Post by doc1963 on May 29, 2020 17:04:03 GMT -5
Thanks. It’s definitely not that. A single cable from pin 2 to the RCA cable. Sorry if that wasn't too awfully helpful. I'm not familiar with that type of adapter, but the principle should remain the same... |
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Post by aswiss on May 29, 2020 18:13:48 GMT -5
I did some little tests to find out the strange behaviour.
I switched between presets 1 + 2 (2 is not configured) and with DTS Neural X is a big difference in Quality and Volume.
One thing I found, is, that when I use Center Small, and do not use Center Sub, the sound is awful as well.
As soon I switch in to MONO (even I don't use any Sub at all) the sound quality is back to normal. I did not do a factory reset before or after upgrading to 1.10.
Will try the Reset tomorrow.
Well, a busy day with my XMC-2 and some good and bad news on the Neural;X issue what I did - Factory reset
- Make minimal changes to settings
- Video on standby enabled was necessary as the second or third step after multiple hangs and false restarts and hard reboots necessary just by navigating the menus to input the 7.1 speaker configuration. Video on standby made my XMC usable. Without it, it hangs all the time.
- Speaker setup changed to standard 7.1. No levels or distances put in. I put identical setup in configuration 1 & 2
- dts 5.1 and 7.1 and PCM begins.
The good news: dts Neural:X now just gives a 6dB volume decrease compared with Dolby Surround and Surround listening mode. (it seems to vary by 5.5-6.5 dB depending on the source) The previous smearing of channels seems to have gone. how I confirmed this: - My HTPC is connected to HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 inputs via a 4K splitter. Usually HDMI 1 is set to “All Large” for music
- I set Input HDMI 1 to be trimmed -6dB and to use “Auto” as the default 5.1 surround mode
- I set Input HDMI 2 to use “Surround” as the default 5.1 Surround Mode
- No other changes at all
- This allowed me to flip between Inputs 1 & 2, the same way as I did before the factory reset, giving a flip from surround to Neural:X with the 6dB volume compensated for so they were the same volume
after the factory reset, this completely changed the action of Neural:X!
it now seems to just be a volume decrease of 6dB (still too much as this is a 50% decrease in sound pressure so source changes still requires reaching for the remote so I hope it can be rectified!)
The bad news:
I struggled, as ever, to get Neural:X to reliably engage. This is for 5.1 dts sources using Auto or dts Neural:X, or for 5.1 PCM using dts Neural:X manual or automatic setting. This is really rubbish. I had this before the factory reset too. Far too many times the Neural:X was displayed on the front panel after selecting but wasn’t actually active as there was no upmixing of 5.1 sources to the rear 7.1 channels. 9the lack of an abrupt volume decrease is also a giveaway)
This is far too sketchy for me. To avoid the paranoia of getting up from my seat to listen to the rear speakers and to avoid the volume decrease with dts Neural:X on these processors, I am not using DTS! My HTPC is set to convert dts to PCM, so I can use Dolby Surround instead and my OPPO blu-ray played is outputting PCM for everything. Bit sad to have a £3500 processor not adequately presenting bitstreamed dts In a simple 7.1 setup
Bad news number two.
Another factory reset, as I wanted to test the “Bi-amp fronts” using the Front Wide outputs separately.
Discussions on the merits of passive bi-amping aside, the use of this facility on the XMC-2 (and presumably therefore the RMC-1) cannot be recommended.
I didn’t bother actually connecting speakers to the Front Wide outputs of the processor, but just having the “Bi-amp” setting enabled caused upmixing to be enabled in “Auto” when it should not be.
Dolby Surround is enabled for 7.1 sources in a 7.1 setup (although no audible change)
dts Neural:X is enabled for 7.1 sources in a 7.1 setup with the undesirable 6dB volume decrease
Final move: I simply restored my previous settings from the internal memory. factory reset and reload settings seems to have sorted the appalling sound with Neural:X, hopefully for good. Things that would be nice to be fixed: 1) volume decrease with Neural:X ( it doesn’t happen on a Marantz 8805) so is probably not part of the Neural:X specification and I really should not have to be reaching for the remote when source changes from Dolby to dts 2) Speaker configuration flags when using bi-amp via Front Wide outputs causes Dolby and dts upmixers to be engaged unnecessarily. |
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Post by bluescale on May 29, 2020 18:20:05 GMT -5
Thanks. It’s definitely not that. A single cable from pin 2 to the RCA cable. Sorry if that wasn't too awfully helpful. I'm not familiar with that type of adapter, but the principle should remain the same... No, that was very helpful! I'm pretty sure "that kind of adapter" is designed wrong. There should be a second wire, which just isn't there. I just picked up the cables from Guitar Center, and while they're not the world's best cables, when I took apart the connector, it has two wires, as expected. Unfortunately, the new cables didn't solve the problem. I did some more experimenting, and discovered something interesting. The problem only exists if I connect a cable from the amplifier into any of the ports on the left half of the XMC-2. All ports from Left Width through to the sub ports recreate the issue. And once the sound starts, it comes from all 4 channels being powered by the A500. To be specific: 1. Just the Right Front Height - no sound. 2. Just the Right Rear Height - no sound. 3. Both Right Front and Right Rear Height - no sound. 4. Connect the A500 to any port left of the Left Width, and suddenly all the speakers connected to the amp get the whine. This is true even for ports that aren't enabled in the XMC-2, or if there isn't a speaker plugged into the amp channel being use. |
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Post by bluescale on May 29, 2020 18:44:27 GMT -5
After a bit more playing, and mashing my ear up against the speakers, I don't think it's that the whine isn't present on the ports on the right hand side. It's just much, much quieter. It's almost as if whatever is causing the sound in the XMC-2 dissipates as you move right. The front 3 channels seem to be dead silent which might be related to their configuration, I don't know.
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Post by hsamwel on May 30, 2020 4:27:19 GMT -5
After a bit more playing, and mashing my ear up against the speakers, I don't think it's that the whine isn't present on the ports on the right hand side. It's just much, much quieter. It's almost as if whatever is causing the sound in the XMC-2 dissipates as you move right. The front 3 channels seem to be dead silent which might be related to their configuration, I don't know. Do you get the whine to move if the A500 is moved through the outputs? Or is it locked on the right side? If A500 is disconnected do you still have the whine? Sorry if you have answered these questions before.. I haven’t fully followed your posts. |
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Post by bluescale on May 30, 2020 4:57:57 GMT -5
After a bit more playing, and mashing my ear up against the speakers, I don't think it's that the whine isn't present on the ports on the right hand side. It's just much, much quieter. It's almost as if whatever is causing the sound in the XMC-2 dissipates as you move right. The front 3 channels seem to be dead silent which might be related to their configuration, I don't know. Do you get the whine to move if the A500 is moved through the outputs? Or is it locked on the right side? If A500 is disconnected do you still have the whine? Sorry if you have answered these questions before.. I haven’t fully followed your posts. The whine is inside the XMC-2 chassis. I logged a ticket with them when I first recurved it. But, I’m assuming because my entire system was balanced before, the whine from inside the XMC-2 wasn’t picked up and by any of my speakers, and I rearranged my room to put the XMC-2 in a location where I wouldn’t head the noise. Unfortunately, now that I have the A500 for my top speakers, it’s passing the hum on to the 4 speakers. The output on the A500 doesn’t matter. |
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Post by hsamwel on May 30, 2020 6:34:20 GMT -5
Do you get the whine to move if the A500 is moved through the outputs? Or is it locked on the right side? If A500 is disconnected do you still have the whine? Sorry if you have answered these questions before.. I haven’t fully followed your posts. The whine is inside the XMC-2 chassis. I logged a ticket with them when I first recurved it. But, I’m assuming because my entire system was balanced before, the whine from inside the XMC-2 wasn’t picked up and by any of my speakers, and I rearranged my room to put the XMC-2 in a location where I wouldn’t head the noise. Unfortunately, now that I have the A500 for my top speakers, it’s passing the hum on to the 4 speakers. The output on the A500 doesn’t matter. Yes I gather it’s from inside the XMC-2 chassie. Yes, the A500 probably receives something from XMC-2. I gather if the signal cables from XMC-2 to A500 is disconnected all the hum is gone? Is the whine there if you disconnect all inputs to XMC-2? Keeping the outputs connected.. Do you have all power connected to the same phase/outlet? I did have an issue with whining on my previous avr. I finally found the cause to be some kind of static/signal leakage from my older SAT box through both HDMI and network input. Changed the power adapter to the SAT box but that didn’t help. In the end I had to remotely turn off the power completely to the SAT box to remove the whining, it sounded almost like an old modem over the phone line. The difference that my whining came out through the speakers and not from the avr. I have a friend that had some kind of whining sound that came from his router and came out through his subwoofer. Moving the router fixed it. |
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