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Post by megash0n on May 30, 2020 6:44:27 GMT -5
Do you get the whine to move if the A500 is moved through the outputs? Or is it locked on the right side? If A500 is disconnected do you still have the whine? Sorry if you have answered these questions before.. I haven’t fully followed your posts. The whine is inside the XMC-2 chassis. I logged a ticket with them when I first recurved it. But, I’m assuming because my entire system was balanced before, the whine from inside the XMC-2 wasn’t picked up and by any of my speakers, and I rearranged my room to put the XMC-2 in a location where I wouldn’t head the noise. Unfortunately, now that I have the A500 for my top speakers, it’s passing the hum on to the 4 speakers. The output on the A500 doesn’t matter. it really sounds like there is a ground lose in that chassis or something. I hear absolutely nothing coming from my RMC. To be honest, I'm shocked they haven't begged you to send that back for repair. Noise mitigation is one of the important things in developing these systems. It seems obvious to me something is wrong and needs thorough investigation. Just to confirm what I think I understand following this for a while... If you unplug all your amps and inputs, you still hear this whining coming from the chassis itself? The same whining that is, in turn, amplified through your non balanced components? |
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Post by megash0n on May 30, 2020 6:46:40 GMT -5
Sorry, I think we kinda doubled up on that last post. 😊
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Post by bluescale on May 30, 2020 14:55:17 GMT -5
Yes, the A500 probably receives something from XMC-2. I gather if the signal cables from XMC-2 to A500 is disconnected all the hum is gone? Is the whine there if you disconnect all inputs to XMC-2? Keeping the outputs connected.. Yes. If I have the A500 disconnected from the XMC-2, all speakers are dead silent when the A500 is on. Do you have all power connected to the same phase/outlet? I did have an issue with whining on my previous avr. I finally found the cause to be some kind of static/signal leakage from my older SAT box through both HDMI and network input. Changed the power adapter to the SAT box but that didn’t help. In the end I had to remotely turn off the power completely to the SAT box to remove the whining, it sounded almost like an old modem over the phone line. The difference that my whining came out through the speakers and not from the avr. I have a friend that had some kind of whining sound that came from his router and came out through his subwoofer. Moving the router fixed it. Everything in that room is on the same circuit (dedicated circuit for the theater). When I first discovered the problem from within the XMC-2 (before getting the A500) I *think* I took the XMC-2 into another room and the whine was still there. There’s a tiny bit of doubt in my mind about whether I tried that or not, so I’ll probably just repeat that test today. |
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Post by bluescale on May 30, 2020 15:13:09 GMT -5
itreally sounds like there is a ground lose in that chassis or something. I hear absolutely nothing coming from my RMC. To be honest, I'm shocked they haven't begged you to send that back for repair. Noise mitigation is one of the important things in developing these systems. It seems obvious to me something is wrong and needs thorough investigation. Just to confirm what I think I understand following this for a while... If you unplug all your amps and inputs, you still hear this whining coming from the chassis itself? The same whining that is, in turn, amplified through your non balanced components? When I called Emotiva about this issue after first receiving the XMC-2, I was told that this wasn’t unexpected. The gentleman I was talking to even went to their test room and told me that he could hear something similar with their unit. He even confirmed the pitch/amplitude change about halfway through boot up. In fairness to Emotiva, he was very clear that he had no way of knowing whether or not the sound coming from my particular XMC-2 was out of spec. It’s just that a little bit of sound isn’t unusual. He was also open to an RMA, but since it was an easy enough problem to work around I made the decision not to have my theater down for two weeks. And yes, the whine inside the XMC-2 happens when nothing is connected but power. |
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Post by petes on May 30, 2020 15:43:14 GMT -5
itreally sounds like there is a ground lose in that chassis or something. I hear absolutely nothing coming from my RMC. To be honest, I'm shocked they haven't begged you to send that back for repair. Noise mitigation is one of the important things in developing these systems. It seems obvious to me something is wrong and needs thorough investigation. Just to confirm what I think I understand following this for a while... If you unplug all your amps and inputs, you still hear this whining coming from the chassis itself? The same whining that is, in turn, amplified through your non balanced components? When I called Emotiva about this issue after first receiving the XMC-2, I was told that this wasn’t unexpected. The gentleman I was talking to even went to their test room and told me that he could hear something similar with their unit. He even confirmed the pitch/amplitude change about halfway through boot up. In fairness to Emotiva, he was very clear that he had no way of knowing whether or not the sound coming from my particular XMC-2 was out of spec. It’s just that a little bit of sound isn’t unusual. He was also open to an RMA, but since it was an easy enough problem to work around I made the decision not to have my theater down for two weeks. And yes, the whine inside the XMC-2 happens when nothing is connected but power. I know it's all in the name, but whine or hum? All of transformers in my amps hum unless I run them through a DC blocker. Although typically worse when there's a large toroidal transformer in play, it's dc offset that causes problems for me - sorted by a dc blocker. |
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Post by markc on May 30, 2020 15:57:40 GMT -5
@ markc - don't remember you mentioning the "4K splitter", before, but I might just have missed it. Now I'm sure in your extensive testing you probably have done this already, but have you tried without it in the chain? More to test against the "lack of engagement" rather than overall playback and volume differences. I'm going to try your bi-amp test (on an RMC-1) to see if I can replicate your issue. Be back shortly. The HDMI splitter is only in my HTPC chain. The Oppo BDP-105 goes direct to the XMC-2. I did most of my testing with discs. But, yes I've tried it. Same result, but not surprising: Duplicating a PCM 24-96 signal into two PCM 24-96 signals on two identical outputs from a splitter does not change the audio signal Same for dts - it is not possible for a splitter to decode and re-encode dts or alter any signals. It simply duplicates. dts-HD MA is dts-HD MA Also, as I've said multiple times, you can throw any audio format you like at dts Neural:x and it does what ever it does exactly the same. It's not bitrate dependant, bit depth, sample rate, PCM, dts core, DTS-HD, DTS-HD MA. From a blu-ray or a streamer or PC or optical. It is the action of the dts Neural:X upmixing changing volume, not the source or character of the audio being input. (Except for Dolby, of course, as that is Blocked by Emotiva programming due to the older version of the Dolby Labs. licensing, and Neural:X is not selectable) |
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Post by markc on May 30, 2020 16:05:50 GMT -5
Discussions on the merits of passive bi-amping aside, the use of this facility on the XMC-2 (and presumably therefore the RMC-1) cannot be recommended.
I didn’t bother actually connecting speakers to the Front Wide outputs of the processor, but just having the “Bi-amp” setting enabled caused upmixing to be enabled in “Auto” when it should not be.
Is there a techinical reason why you wouldn't expect upmixing of for example a 5.1 source, with a 7.1 set-up and the wides enabled? I want 5.1 upmixed to 7.1, preferably without the 6dB global volume decrease that Neural:X gives and Dolby Surround does not. For the unnecessary upmixing, I was referring to playing a 7.1 source in a 7.1 setup. When bi-amping using Front Wides, Neural:X is activated automatically on "Auto" causing a 6dB volume drop unnecessarily. There is no upmixing to do so the listening mode should be selected as "Surround", the same as when Bi-Amping is not enabled. Note, you don't need to actually bi-amp or have anything connected to the Front Wide XLR's to test this. Just change the configuration in Speaker Setup to Bi-Amp and set all height/tops to none (7.1 (or 7.2 or 7.3) system) |
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Post by bluescale on May 30, 2020 16:23:23 GMT -5
I know it's all in the name, but whine or hum? All of transformers in my amps hum unless I run them through a DC blocker. Although typically worse when there's a large toroidal transformer in play, it's dc offset that causes problems for me - sorted by a dc blocker. It's a whine. I do have a slight hum (I'd say about 60hz) coming from all my speakers, whether connected to the XMC-2 or not. It's only audible if I stick my ear to the woofer. This is a whine coming from the tweeter. It's also inside the chassis of the XMC-2, and changes pitch as the XMC-2 initializes. If I leave the XMC-2 in video standby mode, the sounds is there constantly. If I put it in low power mode, the sound is off until I turn the XMC-2 on. hsamwel - I tried moving the XMC-2 to a different circuit. The sound is still there, and unchanged. |
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Post by markc on May 30, 2020 16:31:59 GMT -5
Are you saying all muddy sound disappeared from 7.x setup using after your factory reset? If you’ve read my post I have concluded that any upmix without top speakers creates muddy sound on my system. I did not even have a volume difference when top speakers are engaged with Neural:X. I believe so, yes. The factory reset has left me only with the annoying 6dB volume drop requiring either a remote control for DTS sources, or, as I have, complete avoidance of sending 5.1 dts audio to my Emotiva XMC-2 by: 1) Blu-ray player set to decode audio to PCM (affects Dolby and dts alike) 2) HTPC detects 5.1 dts and converts to PCM The XMC-2 will reliably select and use Dolby Surround for the 5.1 PCM and upmix to 7.1 in the correct way. I repeat: THERE IS NO WAY FOR THE XMC-2 TO DO A NORMAL SIMPLE UPMIX OF 5.1 dts TO 7.1 AUDIO without affecting something it shouldn't. Like the volume. This is a simple, required and expected function of even a rudimentary Surround Sound Processor / receiver 6dB volume decrease is not part of the Neural:X specification, and is not really acceptable: 6dB drop = half the signal voltage. A volume decrease with a bog-standard 5.1 to 7.1 upmix has never happened with dts sources on any older processors, or the XMC-1 (which uses the regular DTS upmixer), and, for direct reference, does not happen on the Marantz 8805 using Neural:X. I have searched the AVSforums. The issue is only mentioned in relation to the RMC-1. I subtend that it is a variance in the XMC-2 / RMC-1 implementation of Neural:X. Possibly in the DSP's hard coding? Possibly in the firmware and programming. After my factory reset I admit I was testing at only a moderate volume (-40) due to my partner working from home and doing Zoom meetings, but flipping between the two and Comparing: 1) HDMI Input 1 with -6dB trim using Surround mode 2) HDMI Input 2 with 0dB trim and dts Neural:X activated (When it did activate!) with both receiving an identical dts or PCM 5.1 audio feed, I could not detect a difference in sound. I listened up close to each speaker, or in the main listening position. (Obviously there was the rear speakers being active in the dts Neural:X Input, for both 5.1 and 7.1, as you would expect) I do not have top or height speakers and have not played with or tested the settings for that, only tried and abandoned the "Bi-amp using Front Wides" |
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Post by bluescale on May 30, 2020 16:35:25 GMT -5
I've uploaded a brief video to give people an idea of the sound. It seems a lot less annoying in this video for a couple reasons:
1. Only 2 of the 4 speakers were plugged in because I was in the middle of testing.
2. I'm standing at the back of my room, pretty far from any of the speakers that put out this whine. When you're seated in the middle of the room, with all 4 speakers plugged in and pointed at you, it's VERY noticeable.
Edit: You can hear the pitch change shortly after the status bar gets to the letter "V" in "EMOTIVA"
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Post by markc on May 30, 2020 17:03:51 GMT -5
The BIG question I want to know is:
Have Megash0n and other users who are getting disturbed audio with Neural:x tried the factory reset
Don't forget to backup your settings first - I did it to both a USB stick and to internal memory, just in case.
I tested the newly reset XMC-2 with a raw configuration and found only the volume decrease - the smeared sound had gone.
THEN I restored my old settings, and it seems like the volume decrease of 6dB is all I am left with.
A settings backup, factory reset and restore of settings takes about a minute, and comes with no risk I think.
Had the restore settings corrupted Neural:X again, the a factory reset plus re-programming from scratch would be the only way to go anyway (And takes 30-60 mins max)
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Post by bluescale on May 30, 2020 17:13:02 GMT -5
I have not tested with a factory reset because I’ve been obsessing over this whine. I might today.
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riscy
Minor Hero
Posts: 28
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Post by riscy on May 30, 2020 17:36:26 GMT -5
Howdy! Got my XMC-2 (today (traded in XMC-1). Very happy for the most part - already noticeably more stable.
A few observations regarding firmware v1.10. Don’t know if these are global, just me, bugs, or “features”:
1) biggest issue is USB audio from my Mac mini. It’s much more stable than the XMC-1 was, but I still have to futz with it. If I power cycle the XMC-2, then I have to un-/re-plug the XMC once booted for the Mac to talk. But my biggest problem is that all of my 2-channel music coming from the Mac is being converted to DD 5.1. If I manually choose “stereo” or “direct”, all I get is random pops. It acts like a sampling issue (never had this problem with XMC-1). Am I the only one with this problem?
2) Mac mini will not allow a rate above 96kHz. Is 192 a future enhancement (it was with the XMC-1)
3) minor quibble, but all 4 triggers have different default settings. Specifically, trigger 3 is set to “zone 2 only” by default. That seems like maybe not the best default?
4) OSD menu scrolling is very slow compared to the OLED.
That said - WOW!! This thing is awesome!!!
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Post by markc on May 30, 2020 17:55:18 GMT -5
I have not tested with a factory reset because I’ve been obsessing over this whine. I might today. My XMC-2 makes no noise, either when cool and just booted up and when it's been on a while. I confess to being Mutton Jeff with some high frequency hearing loss (old age :oP ), but I can clearly hear it on your video. btw - The XMC-2 run a lot hotter than the XMC-2 I think I am going to install some fan extraction in my hi-fi rack as it is closed at the back. |
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator 
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,858
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Post by LCSeminole on May 30, 2020 18:08:31 GMT -5
The BIG question I want to know is: Have Megash0n and other users who are getting disturbed audio with Neural:x tried the factory reset Don't forget to backup your settings first - I did it to both a USB stick and to internal memory, just in case. I tested the newly reset XMC-2 with a raw configuration and found only the volume decrease - the smeared sound had gone. THEN I restored my old settings, and it seems like the volume decrease of 6dB is all I am left with. A settings backup, factory reset and restore of settings takes about a minute, and comes with no risk I think. Had the restore settings corrupted Neural:X again, the a factory reset plus re-programming from scratch would be the only way to go anyway (And takes 30-60 mins max) Hey Mark, Sorry I haven't been on since Tuesday but long work days have continued so you know, priorities.  Just to comment on your "Factory Reset". I would've already suggested this, I just assumed you and the others having this problem had already done so. As a matter of practice when updating the firmware, I always do these things in this order and have always had luck doing so: 1. Perform an on-board "Backup Settings" before updating any new firmware. 2. Load new firmware. 3. "Factory Reset"(This step just gives me the assurance that the new firmware has at least it's first full loading/cold boot), then "Restore Settings". 4. Shut down and Cold Boot(I don't use "Video Remains On") |
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Post by novisnick on May 30, 2020 18:48:19 GMT -5
I've uploaded a brief video to give people an idea of the sound. It seems a lot less annoying in this video for a couple reasons: 1. Only 2 of the 4 speakers were plugged in because I was in the middle of testing. 2. I'm standing at the back of my room, pretty far from any of the speakers that put out this whine. When you're seated in the middle of the room, with all 4 speakers plugged in and pointed at you, it's VERY noticeable. Edit: You can hear the pitch change shortly after the status bar gets to the letter "V" in "EMOTIVA" Houston, we have a problem! 😲 Call Emotiva first thing Monday morning. So sorry this is happening. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 30, 2020 21:21:58 GMT -5
Howdy! Got my XMC-2 (today (traded in XMC-1). Very happy for the most part - already noticeably more stable. A few observations regarding firmware v1.10. Don’t know if these are global, just me, bugs, or “features”: 1) biggest issue is USB audio from my Mac mini. It’s much more stable than the XMC-1 was, but I still have to futz with it. If I power cycle the XMC-2, then I have to un-/re-plug the XMC once booted for the Mac to talk. But my biggest problem is that all of my 2-channel music coming from the Mac is being converted to DD 5.1. If I manually choose “stereo” or “direct”, all I get is random pops. It acts like a sampling issue (never had this problem with XMC-1). Am I the only one with this problem? 2) Mac mini will not allow a rate above 96kHz. Is 192 a future enhancement (it was with the XMC-1) 3) minor quibble, but all 4 triggers have different default settings. Specifically, trigger 3 is set to “zone 2 only” by default. That seems like maybe not the best default? 4) OSD menu scrolling is very slow compared to the OLED. That said - WOW!! This thing is awesome!!! 1) USB with my Mini has been pretty good, and stable. I have two channel set to use stereo so it does not upmix unless I choose to, if you leave it at the default of auto it will probably engage the DSU. I have had the stutter issue you mention once or twice, but haven’t tried to troubleshoot what causes it yet, I’ll try to listen again soon. 2) What player are you using? With Audirvana I played a variety of sample rates and depths up to 24/192. 3) I use all 4 triggers and had to change all of them, most people probably use one or two triggers, and the defaults work. Having one setup for Zone 2 seems ok to me, at least there’s an example for those who want to use Z2. Probably no perfect default. 4) Probably Glad you’re enjoying the new rig! |
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riscy
Minor Hero
Posts: 28
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Post by riscy on May 30, 2020 22:42:41 GMT -5
Howdy! Got my XMC-2 (today (traded in XMC-1). Very happy for the most part - already noticeably more stable. A few observations regarding firmware v1.10. Don’t know if these are global, just me, bugs, or “features”: 1) biggest issue is USB audio from my Mac mini. It’s much more stable than the XMC-1 was, but I still have to futz with it. If I power cycle the XMC-2, then I have to un-/re-plug the XMC once booted for the Mac to talk. But my biggest problem is that all of my 2-channel music coming from the Mac is being converted to DD 5.1. If I manually choose “stereo” or “direct”, all I get is random pops. It acts like a sampling issue (never had this problem with XMC-1). Am I the only one with this problem? 2) Mac mini will not allow a rate above 96kHz. Is 192 a future enhancement (it was with the XMC-1) 3) minor quibble, but all 4 triggers have different default settings. Specifically, trigger 3 is set to “zone 2 only” by default. That seems like maybe not the best default? 4) OSD menu scrolling is very slow compared to the OLED. That said - WOW!! This thing is awesome!!! 1) USB with my Mini has been pretty good, and stable. I have two channel set to use stereo so it does not upmix unless I choose to, if you leave it at the default of auto it will probably engage the DSU. I have had the stutter issue you mention once or twice, but haven’t tried to troubleshoot what causes it yet, I’ll try to listen again soon. 2) What player are you using? With Audirvana I played a variety of sample rates and depths up to 24/192. 3) I use all 4 triggers and had to change all of them, most people probably use one or two triggers, and the defaults work. Having one setup for Zone 2 seems ok to me, at least there’s an example for those who want to use Z2. Probably no perfect default. 4) Probably Glad you’re enjoying the new rig! Thanks for the response!! 1/2) I don’t know why this mini has always been finicky with USB and the XMC-X. It’s a powerful unit and the OS is very up to date. However, under “Audio Midi Setup”, the maximum it will let me run the “RMC-1” USB input is 96 kHz. I am using “Pure Music” for hi-res FLAC playback. It is playing 192 source content, but downconverting to 96kHz because that’s what it’s seeing from the XMC. It’s been a while since I looked at players... need to check out Audirvana. Pure Music’s iTunes integration is nice, but cumbersome... and buggy. Forgetting to force the input 2-channel to stereo was just dumb. However, I do still have the problem of “stereo” not working with certain disks via TOSLink. Not a big deal - I can always use HDMI. 3) I still think they should all be set up identically and on zone 1 by default, but it’s hardly a big deal. Thanks again! |
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Post by markc on May 31, 2020 4:18:31 GMT -5
1) USB with my Mini has been pretty good, and stable. I have two channel set to use stereo so it does not upmix unless I choose to, if you leave it at the default of auto it will probably engage the DSU. I have had the stutter issue you mention once or twice, but haven’t tried to troubleshoot what causes it yet, I’ll try to listen again soon. 2) What player are you using? With Audirvana I played a variety of sample rates and depths up to 24/192. 3) I use all 4 triggers and had to change all of them, most people probably use one or two triggers, and the defaults work. Having one setup for Zone 2 seems ok to me, at least there’s an example for those who want to use Z2. Probably no perfect default. 4) Probably Glad you’re enjoying the new rig! Thanks for the response!! 1/2) I don’t know why this mini has always been finicky with USB and the XMC-X. It’s a powerful unit and the OS is very up to date. However, under “Audio Midi Setup”, the maximum it will let me run the “RMC-1” USB input is 96 kHz. I am using “Pure Music” for hi-res FLAC playback. It is playing 192 source content, but downconverting to 96kHz because that’s what it’s seeing from the XMC. It’s been a while since I looked at players... need to check out Audirvana. Pure Music’s iTunes integration is nice, but cumbersome... and buggy. Forgetting to force the input 2-channel to stereo was just dumb. However, I do still have the problem of “stereo” not working with certain disks via TOSLink. Not a big deal - I can always use HDMI. 3) I still think they should all be set up identically and on zone 1 by default, but it’s hardly a big deal. Thanks again! In the XMC-2, you probably haven't changed the USB audio class to UAC2 (done by checking a box in the Menu/Setup/Advanced/USB Audio) Read page 53 of the manual :oP This affects what kind of USB device capabilities are reported to your computer. It defaults to the slower UAC1 for increased compatibility but you will only get the greater bandwidth by changing to UAC2 |
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Post by aswiss on May 31, 2020 5:54:47 GMT -5
I've uploaded a brief video to give people an idea of the sound. It seems a lot less annoying in this video for a couple reasons: 1. Only 2 of the 4 speakers were plugged in because I was in the middle of testing. 2. I'm standing at the back of my room, pretty far from any of the speakers that put out this whine. When you're seated in the middle of the room, with all 4 speakers plugged in and pointed at you, it's VERY noticeable. Edit: You can hear the pitch change shortly after the status bar gets to the letter "V" in "EMOTIVA"
Is this Noise (should not exist) hearable, also when you Power it in another room?
I agree - call support.
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Just to comment on your "Factory Reset". I would've already suggested this, I just assumed you and the others having this problem had already done so. As a matter of practice when updating the firmware, I always do these things in this order and have always had luck doing so:
