ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Jun 4, 2020 17:06:17 GMT -5
Thanks for your input. I see that your setup is 7.2.4 as is mine. Lsc ’s system is 9.2.4 (which I assume he’s running front wides). Do you guys who are experiencing problems have your “atmospheric effects” speakers set as “heights” or “tops”...? Mine are in-ceiling and, in my 8805, are properly designated as “tops”. Just wondering if that makes any difference at all... FWIW, my 8805 plays at the same relative level whether DTS Neutral X or DSU is in use, but there are times where I believe DTS Neural X is more precise and involving. I would be very disappointed if this doesn’t carry over to my new RMC-1L that just shipped this evening. To date I've had to "rig" the Heights/Tops to test some things as I don't yet have a permanent ceiling speaker arrangement. My BasX-800 amp just shipped today so in a perfect universe I'll receive it on Saturday just like what happened when my XMC-2 shipped on Thursday. After this weekend I'll be able to do more meaningful tests. But, like I posted just above, the two issues I've noticed have been volume difference and LOTS of bass. So next week when I will have a better strategy for measuring and notation, maybe I'll be able to present the findings in a verifiable and repeatable way. I'm not a scientist, but I did use to wear a pocket protector with pens in my shirt pocket. Saved a few shirts.
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Post by dwander on Jun 4, 2020 18:08:23 GMT -5
New here. New to emotiva. I’ve got the xmc-2 up and running but the dts neural x issue is disappointing. I’ve read some of this thread in regards to others with the same issue. I just wanted to know if there was any progress on this. Is this something that should be worked out? I wanted to speak with customer service but figured I would ask other owners first. SQ for everything else I’ve tested is very impressive so really hoping for heres a positive answer here. Thanks! While owners can tell you what they hear from their systems regarding Neural X, they can't tell you if or when it will be 'worked out'. I'd say there's still some troubleshooting to do in order to make it reproducible in a consistently incorrect fashion that can be corrected (though some may think they've got a good idea). Of course it's possible that a coder will find the problem just by reviewing what's going on. If Neural X is your Valhalla you might want to wait, I mostly use the DSU and though I want to get this fixed, it doesn't currently affect my day to day use much. I think there's a strong consensus that it should be high on the punch list. Thanks for your input. And i agree that it’s not a big issue as far as day to day use. Majority movies are in Dolby, and tv content isn’t an issue either. But I’d just have an issue taking a big step backwards in sound quality with specific movies that are in dts. So I’d ultimately have to make a decision if it’s worth keeping or not. I appreciate the response
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Post by cwmcobra on Jun 4, 2020 18:09:24 GMT -5
Thanks for your input. I see that your setup is 7.2.4 as is mine. Lsc ’s system is 9.2.4 (which I assume he’s running front wides). Do you guys who are experiencing problems have your “atmospheric effects” speakers set as “heights” or “tops”...? Mine are in-ceiling and, in my 8805, are properly designated as “tops”. Just wondering if that makes any difference at all... FWIW, my 8805 plays at the same relative level whether DTS Neutral X or DSU is in use, but there are times where I believe DTS Neural X is more precise and involving. I would be very disappointed if this doesn’t carry over to my new RMC-1L that just shipped this evening. To date I've had to "rig" the Heights/Tops to test some things as I don't yet have a permanent ceiling speaker arrangement. My BasX-800 amp just shipped today so in a perfect universe I'll receive it on Saturday just like what happened when my XMC-2 shipped on Thursday. After this weekend I'll be able to do more meaningful tests. But, like I posted just above, the two issues I've noticed have been volume difference and LOTS of bass. So next week when I will have a better strategy for measuring and notation, maybe I'll be able to present the findings in a verifiable and repeatable way. I'm not a scientist, but I did use to wear a pocket protector with pens in my shirt pocket. Saved a few shirts. I had a slide rule in my pocket. How's that for dating myself?? Chuck
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Post by dwander on Jun 4, 2020 18:11:03 GMT -5
Thanks for your input. I see that your setup is 7.2.4 as is mine. Lsc ’s system is 9.2.4 (which I assume he’s running front wides). Do you guys who are experiencing problems have your “atmospheric effects” speakers set as “heights” or “tops”...? Mine are in-ceiling and, in my 8805, are properly designated as “tops”. Just wondering if that makes any difference at all... FWIW, my 8805 plays at the same relative level whether DTS Neutral X or DSU is in use, but there are times where I believe DTS Neural X is more precise and involving. I would be very disappointed if this doesn’t carry over to my new RMC-1L that just shipped this evening. To date I've had to "rig" the Heights/Tops to test some things as I don't yet have a permanent ceiling speaker arrangement. My BasX-800 amp just shipped today so in a perfect universe I'll receive it on Saturday just like what happened when my XMC-2 shipped on Thursday. After this weekend I'll be able to do more meaningful tests. But, like I posted just above, the two issues I've noticed have been volume difference and LOTS of bass. So next week when I will have a better strategy for measuring and notation, maybe I'll be able to present the findings in a verifiable and repeatable way. I'm not a scientist, but I did use to wear a pocket protector with pens in my shirt pocket. Saved a few shirts. I agree with what you said about volume and bass. I’m hearing same thing in my room.
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LCSeminole
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Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Jun 4, 2020 18:54:33 GMT -5
While owners can tell you what they hear from their systems regarding Neural X, they can't tell you if or when it will be 'worked out'. I'd say there's still some troubleshooting to do in order to make it reproducible in a consistently incorrect fashion that can be corrected (though some may think they've got a good idea). Of course it's possible that a coder will find the problem just by reviewing what's going on. If Neural X is your Valhalla you might want to wait, I mostly use the DSU and though I want to get this fixed, it doesn't currently affect my day to day use much. I think there's a strong consensus that it should be high on the punch list. Thanks for your input. And i agree that it’s not a big issue as far as day to day use. Majority movies are in Dolby, and tv content isn’t an issue either. But I’d just have an issue taking a big step backwards in sound quality with specific movies that are in dts. So I’d ultimately have to make a decision if it’s worth keeping or not. I appreciate the response I only have a difference in volume that varies depending on the DTS-HD movie in my 7.2.4 setup. The James Bond movie I'm watching right now, "Spectre", (DTS-HD MA 7.1 track with Neural:X), sounds fantastic, and I don't feel it's missing anything. Same goes for the other Daniel Craig movies that are DTS-HD MA 5.1. As "AudioHTIT" has said, not everyone is experiencing this DTS issue and reproducing it consistently is the key. There is always the workaround of sending the DTS track as lpcm and using the Dolby Surround Upmixer until Damon can reproduce the issue and translate it to the code writers for a fix.
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Post by dwander on Jun 4, 2020 19:24:43 GMT -5
Thanks for your input. And i agree that it’s not a big issue as far as day to day use. Majority movies are in Dolby, and tv content isn’t an issue either. But I’d just have an issue taking a big step backwards in sound quality with specific movies that are in dts. So I’d ultimately have to make a decision if it’s worth keeping or not. I appreciate the response I only have a difference in volume that varies depending on the DTS-HD movie in my 7.2.4 setup. The James Bond movie I'm watching right now, "Spectre", (DTS-HD MA 7.1 track with Neural:X), sounds fantastic, and I don't feel it's missing anything. Same goes for the other Daniel Craig movies that are DTS-HD MA 5.1. As "AudioHTIT" has said, not everyone is experiencing this DTS issue and reproducing it consistently is the key. There is always the workaround of sending the DTS track as lpcm and using the Dolby Surround Upmixer until Damon can reproduce the issue and translate it to the code writers for a fix. I’ll try the James Bond movies as I’ve watched them recently just before I swapped in the xmc2. But I just got the unit so I’m not going to commit to workarounds since I can still return it. Hopefully I won’t have to though
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Post by dimora on Jun 4, 2020 19:33:40 GMT -5
Reserved for DIRAC complaint. J/k 😂😂 I’ve got this: Where’s DIRAC and The expansion modules for my $5000 processor?
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Post by davidl81 on Jun 4, 2020 19:55:34 GMT -5
Reserved for DIRAC complaint. J/k 😂😂 I’ve got this: Where’s DIRAC and The expansion modules for my $5000 processor? Expansion modules lolz
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Post by markc on Jun 5, 2020 0:46:45 GMT -5
New here. New to emotiva. I’ve got the xmc-2 up and running but the dts neural x issue is disappointing. I’ve read some of this thread in regards to others with the same issue. I just wanted to know if there was any progress on this. Is this something that should be worked out? I wanted to speak with customer service but figured I would ask other owners first. SQ for everything else I’ve tested is very impressive so really hoping for heres a positive answer here. Thanks! DTS Neural X is terrible. It just stinks that it’s the default (probably DTS’s rules). The fix is to change to “surround” mode which is the native mode and it sounds so much better. I tried to like it and wanted to use more speakers since I bothered to go thru the expense of putting them up but I gave up. But, some others seem to like DTS Neural X. Although with using "Surround" I'd lose 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing, which is a fairly basic function of a Surround Sound Processor. (Obviously you also lose the more immersive upmixing if you have top/height speakers and don't use Neural:X) For me, I've found the only interim acceptable solution is to do everything I can to avoid bitstreaming DTS to the XMC-2 for this reason (I know this kinda defeats the purpose of having a Surround Sound Processor, but I don't want to have to reach for my remote and change surround mode in the menu every time a DTS bitstream arrives in the XMC-2!) I convert DTS (all variants) to PCM within my HTPC (JRiver) and convert everything to PCM in my Blu-ray player (Oppo) and then am free to use the Dolby Surround Upmixer to do any 5.1 to 7.1 expansion, which sounds great (But why the XMC-2 can't do decent DTS 5.1 to 7.1 expansion is beyond me)
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Post by markc on Jun 5, 2020 0:50:53 GMT -5
DTS Neural X is terrible. It just stinks that it’s the default (probably DTS’s rules). The fix is to change to “surround” mode which is the native mode and it sounds so much better. I tried to like it and wanted to use more speakers since I bothered to go thru the expense of putting them up but I gave up. But, some others seem to like DTS Neural X. That's odd because the DTS Neutral X upmixer in my 8805 works fine and, in some cases, sounds better than DSU... but never any worse. Are you saying this because it sounds terrible on your XMC-2 or do you have another point of reference...? I'm asking this because I have an RMC-1L currently being built as the upgrade path for my (long retired) XMC-1. Just curious if I should be excited to get it or just leave it in the box until this topic is sorted out... Exactly - I posted earlier how I tested a friend's Marantz 8805 and got the same result. (I say tested - It took less that 30 seconds to identify that the Marantz was doing Neural:X correctly and that my XMC-2 was obviously not!) IT IS EMOTIVA'S IMPLEMENTATION of dts Neural:X in the RMC-1 and XMC-2 that is the issue, not the upmixer itself.
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Post by bluescale on Jun 5, 2020 3:20:00 GMT -5
Although with using "Surround" I'd lose 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing, which is a fairly basic function of a Surround Sound Processor. (Obviously you also lose the more immersive upmixing if you have top/height speakers and don't use Neural:X) For me, I've found the only interim acceptable solution is to do everything I can to avoid bitstreaming DTS to the XMC-2 for this reason (I know this kinda defeats the purpose of having a Surround Sound Processor, but I don't want to have to reach for my remote and change surround mode in the menu every time a DTS bitstream arrives in the XMC-2!) I convert DTS (all variants) to PCM within my HTPC (JRiver) and convert everything to PCM in my Blu-ray player (Oppo) and then am free to use the Dolby Surround Upmixer to do any 5.1 to 7.1 expansion, which sounds great (But why the XMC-2 can't do decent DTS 5.1 to 7.1 expansion is beyond me) I was under the impression that since you did a factory reset, the only problem with Neural:X is the -6bB gain? Why would you have to change surround modes if that's the case?
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Post by markc on Jun 5, 2020 4:11:41 GMT -5
Yes, it is true that when I tested after a factory reset, the DTS Neural:X only seemed to have volume changes and not colouration.
However, enough users are getting the problem that there is every reason to think it will come back (Probably after some combination of switching from movies with DTS:X to PCM to Atmos to DTS-HD-MA which throws the XMC-2 and then I am back to rubbish sound due to a poor Neural:X implementation).
Why am I suspicious it could return? Because other things are not right with this processor. I have had several episodes of the XMC-2 getting "stuck" on PCM after listening to music and then when fed a Bitstreamed format (Dolby or DTS), it fails to lock onto anything. The front panel reports "PCM" and the XMC-2 keeps playing intermittent static every 2 seconds and refuses to lock on to the DTS or Dolby bitstream. Sometimes it re-syncs after playing files with a different format, but usually, after trying to flip from a PCM to a Dolby source and back again, it still stays stuck on PCM and then I have to turn it off and on again. Annoying! This problem is well documented by multiple users.
I have not re-enabled DTS 5.1 bitstreaming to my XMC-2 because I have a workaround that works (nb One that I shouldn't need to use on a £3500 Surround Sound Processor).
I don't want to have to do a system reset every X days when it trips up again, (or, equally, I don't want to have an eternal paranoia that takes me out of the moment of simply enjoying watching or listening. (I don't want to think: Is that sound bad again? Are the rears working? Has Neural:X even kicked in? Is it badly recorded TV show or has the Emotiva messed up again?)
I can't say. Maybe Neural:X is already up to it's old tricks on my XMC-2 and if I feed it a DTS 5.1 signal I'll get the muddy smearing of sound. I wouldn't know. I have my workaround. I am not wasting more time testing. I want to listen, not beta test.
In response to your question, If Neural:X activated, I would still have to reach for the remote - either for volume up six times or do disable Neural:X by changing Surround Mode to accomplish almost the same thing.
The 6dB volume decrease with Neural:X, by itself, requires manual adjustment to volume with DTS sources, and I am not willing to accept this malfunction when I can bypass it by ensuring I only send the XMC-2 Dolby or PCM 5.1. This workaround gives me equal volumes across all source materials and encoded audio formats.
Note: This does not mean that the XMC-2 is fully functioning. It isn't. I am providing a user "kludge" workaround to an inherent problem.
BOTTOM LINE: Neither the RMC-1 nor XMC-2 can upmix DTS 5.1 to 7.1 without a SIGNIFICANT erroneous volume change. (6dB decrease = halved signal voltage to amplifiers, =5/8 of the loudness, =1/4 of the power)
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Post by megash0n on Jun 5, 2020 6:03:59 GMT -5
That's odd because the DTS Neutral X upmixer in my 8805 works fine and, in some cases, sounds better than DSU... but never any worse. Are you saying this because it sounds terrible on your XMC-2 or do you have another point of reference...? I'm asking this because I have an RMC-1L currently being built as the upgrade path for my (long retired) XMC-1. Just curious if I should be excited to get it or just leave it in the box until this topic is sorted out... I did a factory reset, as suggested by markc, and I think the issue is now better. However, because of the whine issue I'm dealing with is so distracting, it's hard to tell for sure. I'll verify for sure once the XMC-2 is repaired. megash0n - I can't remember, have you had a chance to try this out? I haven't messed with mine at all since changing to Tops. I've been meaning to.
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Post by BigE on Jun 5, 2020 7:47:38 GMT -5
Yes, it is true that when I tested after a factory reset, the DTS Neural:X only seemed to have volume changes and not colouration. However, enough users are getting the problem that there is every reason to think it will come back (Probably after some combination of switching from movies with DTS:X to PCM to Atmos to DTS-HD-MA which throws the XMC-2 and then I am back to rubbish sound due to a poor Neural:X implementation). Why am I suspicious it could return? Because other things are not right with this processor. I have had several episodes of the XMC-2 getting "stuck" on PCM after listening to music and then when fed a Bitstreamed format (Dolby or DTS), it fails to lock onto anything. The front panel reports "PCM" and the XMC-2 keeps playing intermittent static every 2 seconds and refuses to lock on to the DTS or Dolby bitstream. Sometimes it re-syncs after playing files with a different format, but usually, after trying to flip from a PCM to a Dolby source and back again, it still stays stuck on PCM and then I have to turn it off and on again. Annoying! This problem is well documented by multiple users. I have not re-enabled DTS 5.1 bitstreaming to my XMC-2 because I have a workaround that works (nb One that I shouldn't need to use on a £3500 Surround Sound Processor). I don't want to have to do a system reset every X days when it trips up again, (or, equally, I don't want to have an eternal paranoia that takes me out of the moment of simply enjoying watching or listening. (I don't want to think: Is that sound bad again? Are the rears working? Has Neural:X even kicked in? Is it badly recorded TV show or has the Emotiva messed up again?) I can't say. Maybe Neural:X is already up to it's old tricks on my XMC-2 and if I feed it a DTS 5.1 signal I'll get the muddy smearing of sound. I wouldn't know. I have my workaround. I am not wasting more time testing. I want to listen, not beta test. In response to your question, If Neural:X activated, I would still have to reach for the remote - either for volume up six times or do disable Neural:X by changing Surround Mode to accomplish almost the same thing. The 6dB volume decrease with Neural:X, by itself, requires manual adjustment to volume with DTS sources, and I am not willing to accept this malfunction when I can bypass it by ensuring I only send the XMC-2 Dolby or PCM 5.1. This workaround gives me equal volumes across all source materials and encoded audio formats. Note: This does not mean that the XMC-2 is fully functioning. It isn't. I am providing a user "kludge" workaround to an inherent problem. BOTTOM LINE: Neither the RMC-1 nor XMC-2 can upmix DTS 5.1 to 7.1 without a SIGNIFICANT erroneous volume change. (6dB decrease = halved signal voltage to amplifiers, =5/8 of the loudness, =1/4 of the power) Had similar issue during playback of DTS Blu-ray movie in which it locked onto PCM2 during auto playback of bonuses at end and wouldn't unlock until I cycled power.
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,773
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Post by LCSeminole on Jun 5, 2020 7:49:14 GMT -5
I did a factory reset, as suggested by markc, and I think the issue is now better. However, because of the whine issue I'm dealing with is so distracting, it's hard to tell for sure. I'll verify for sure once the XMC-2 is repaired. megash0n - I can't remember, have you had a chance to try this out? I haven't messed with mine at all since changing to Tops. I've been meaning to. What did changing to “Tops” do for you ?
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Post by markc on Jun 5, 2020 10:30:27 GMT -5
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Post by jammerblue on Jun 5, 2020 10:36:30 GMT -5
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Post by davidl81 on Jun 5, 2020 10:45:09 GMT -5
Wait you may have been serious. If we go with Emotiva's track record (and honestly I am not trying to bash them) I would say they will be about two years behind wide spread 8k adoption. So if 8k Pre-Pros from Marantz etc become in norm in 2021 I would think a honest timeline for Emotiva 8k would be 2023ish. Dan did mention something one time about they we looking into it, and the board is modular so it can for sure be swapped out in the future.
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stiehl11
Emo VIPs
Give me available light!
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Post by stiehl11 on Jun 5, 2020 11:07:57 GMT -5
Wait you may have been serious. If we go with Emotiva's track record (and honestly I am not trying to bash them) I would say they will be about two years behind wide spread 8k adoption. So if 8k Pre-Pros from Marantz etc become in norm in 2021 I would think a honest timeline for Emotiva 8k would be 2023ish. Dan did mention something one time about they we looking into it, and the board is modular so it can for sure be swapped out in the future. And I'm ok with that. Buying a new video board every year for 4 years at new to the market prices while the standard settles really isn't my bag.
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Post by thxultra on Jun 5, 2020 11:32:45 GMT -5
Wait you may have been serious. If we go with Emotiva's track record (and honestly I am not trying to bash them) I would say they will be about two years behind wide spread 8k adoption. So if 8k Pre-Pros from Marantz etc become in norm in 2021 I would think a honest timeline for Emotiva 8k would be 2023ish. Dan did mention something one time about they we looking into it, and the board is modular so it can for sure be swapped out in the future. And I'm ok with that. Buying a new video board every year for 4 years at new to the market prices while the standard settles really isn't my bag. Exactly even the new Denon's only have one 8k port and it doesn't even support the full speed of the spec. I also don't see a need for 8k except for maybe video games...
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