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Post by carbonsummit on Oct 1, 2021 11:52:21 GMT -5
It's not so much about the channels one has, but rather the increased amount of objects handled and how they're rendered into your available channels. Even if you're not surpassing the current 11.1 channel limit of the current DTS:X/Neural X software, Pro still does a better job. Trinnov explains it pretty well HEREIf it’s anything like Atmos, the available content doesn’t seem to me to hardly ever use even 12 objects, so I don’t care if Emotiva ever supports it. Let’s wait until there is adequate content available that uses it. I’d rather have flawless rendering of existing codecs with no snaps, input switching that worked without fiddling. Before supporting more sound objects, I’d rather have the ability to tell the AVR where my speakers are and have it adjust for actual speaker location like Trinnov. Then and only then worry about more objects and only when there’s enough content that will actually use it. Until then it’s a complete waste of engineering dollars IMO. And all of that can wait until a manufacturer can implement development process and QA to deliver a predictable periodic release schedule. I agree! Lets get what we have to work before adding more complication to the equation. HDMI switching affects most everything we do, where as some latest greatest codec with very little content out there is of no importance to me. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Oct 1, 2021 15:20:29 GMT -5
I think I need to clarify something here that seems to confuse a lot of people... (and Trinnov did not seem to make it any clearer in their article).
1. CHANNELS ARE NOT OBJECTS and OBJECTS ARE NOT CHANNELS. 2. There is no specific reason why the number of objects and the number of channels must or even should coincide.
An "object oriented immersive sound track" consists of two things: 1) bed channels - which are static tracks that are intended to be played from one or more specific speakers - the Left Front channel is a bed channel
2) objects - which are individual sounds which are assigned to one or more speakers by the renderer at playback time - the alien spaceship flying in circles over your head could be mixed into the bed channels or it could be a sound object - if it is mixed into the bed channels it will always play from the same speaker or speakers (unless it is mixed into other speakers because your system doesn't include the speaker it is assigned to) - if it is a sound object it may play from different speakers on different systems - depending on how many speakers you have and which ones the renderer decides to assign it to
The number of bed tracks that can be handled, and the ability to upmix them, is one characteristic of a particular system. The number of objects that can be handled, how they are assigned, and where they can be assigned, is another characteristic. And the number of output channels (speakers) that are supported is another distinct thing.
But, even though these are all related, they are separate things, and must be considered separately.
(And, yes, having more channels, and being able to handle more objects, both contribute to being able to position sounds more precisely around you.)
So for example: You can have five channels and no objects at all (all bed channels)...
Or you can have twenty objects in five channels (with a whole bunch of stuff in the bed channels - or almost nothing at all)... Or you can have five objects in twenty channels (with or without anything much in the bed channels)...
Currently most movies have a lot of relatively static content in the bed channels... and reserve the objects for unique or individual sounds that move around a lot...
However, that is no means required, and may especially not be true at all for movies that have been converted to Dolby Atmos from an older format...
In fact, these choices often come down to philosophy, on the part of the sound engineer... Would he or she prefer to place that sound "in the front left channel" or "ahead and 45 degrees to the left of the listener"? (Note that, depending on your specific system, there may be a subtle distinction between the results of those two choices.)
Where can we find a list of home movie content that is available in DTS:X:Pro? There isn't one as there is no such thing as DTS:X Pro content. Receivers/Prepros with DTS:X are limited to 12 channels (eg. 7.1.4) but DTS:X Pro Receivers/Prepros support between 14 and 32 channels. DTS:X content supports up to 15 Channels/Objects and 2 Subwoofers. DTS:X Pro can upmix channel based content to additional speakers. Objects can move between multiple speakers but if they are mixed in a static position this can be problematic as they cannot be upmixed. Object based DTS:X content is rare. Most DTS:X content (eg. Most Universal releases) is channel based 7.1.4 which DTS:X Pro can upmix further. Some of the WellGo USA releases were a mix of channels and objects. Most Imax Enhanced releases are 7.1.4 plus a single static object a little below the centre height position. |
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Post by jbrunwa on Oct 1, 2021 15:40:50 GMT -5
I think I need to clarify something here that seems to confuse a lot of people... (and Trinnov did not seem to make it any clearer in their article).
1. CHANNELS ARE NOT OBJECTS and OBJECTS ARE NOT CHANNELS. 2. There is no specific reason why the number of objects and the number of channels must or even should coincide.
An "object oriented immersive sound track" consists of two things: 1) bed channels - which are static tracks that are intended to be played from one or more specific speakers - the Left Front channel is a bed channel
2) objects - which are individual sounds which are assigned to one or more speakers by the renderer at playback time - the alien spaceship flying in circles over your head could be mixed into the bed channels or it could be a sound object - if it is mixed into the bed channels it will always play from the same speaker or speakers (unless it is mixed into other speakers because your system doesn't include the speaker it is assigned to) - if it is a sound object it may play from different speakers on different systems - depending on how many speakers you have and which ones the renderer decides to assign it to
The number of bed tracks that can be handled, and the ability to upmix them, is one characteristic of a particular system. The number of objects that can be handled, how they are assigned, and where they can be assigned, is another characteristic. And the number of output channels (speakers) that are supported is another distinct thing.
But, even though these are all related, they are separate things, and must be considered separately.
(And, yes, having more channels, and being able to handle more objects, both contribute to being able to position sounds more precisely around you.)
So for example: You can have five channels and no objects at all (all bed channels)...
Or you can have twenty objects in five channels (with a whole bunch of stuff in the bed channels - or almost nothing at all)... Or you can have five objects in twenty channels (with or without anything much in the bed channels)...
Currently most movies have a lot of relatively static content in the bed channels... and reserve the objects for unique or individual sounds that move around a lot...
However, that is no means required, and may especially not be true at all for movies that have been converted to Dolby Atmos from an older format...
In fact, these choices often come down to philosophy, on the part of the sound engineer... Would he or she prefer to place that sound "in the front left channel" or "ahead and 45 degrees to the left of the listener"? (Note that, depending on your specific system, there may be a subtle distinction between the results of those two choices.)
There isn't one as there is no such thing as DTS:X Pro content. Receivers/Prepros with DTS:X are limited to 12 channels (eg. 7.1.4) but DTS:X Pro Receivers/Prepros support between 14 and 32 channels. DTS:X content supports up to 15 Channels/Objects and 2 Subwoofers. DTS:X Pro can upmix channel based content to additional speakers. Objects can move between multiple speakers but if they are mixed in a static position this can be problematic as they cannot be upmixed. Object based DTS:X content is rare. Most DTS:X content (eg. Most Universal releases) is channel based 7.1.4 which DTS:X Pro can upmix further. Some of the WellGo USA releases were a mix of channels and objects. Most Imax Enhanced releases are 7.1.4 plus a single static object a little below the centre height position. Thanks Keith, this explains a lot! I started a thread for people to recommend content with mixes that make good use of Atmos and DTS:X emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1080132/threadI have ordered a couple movies that have been recommended. I found that I have to be careful to order the versions (typically UHD Blu-ray) that have the Atmos or DTS:X tracks as the same movie often is sold in Blu-ray with only a 5.1 sound track. |
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Post by Goodfella on Oct 1, 2021 17:00:04 GMT -5
Any word on when the next firmware release will be? I keep hoping for relief of the snaps and pops.
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Post by bitzerjdb on Oct 3, 2021 8:15:10 GMT -5
I did a little experiment last night when the house was empty (no kids!). Watching a Netflix movie on my AppleTV (PCM 5.1 output), I switched between Input 1 (Auto) and Input 2 (DTS:Neural:X). The difference was shocking. Using DTS:Neural:X, the channels were level and balanced. The Center Channel was clear...
The opposite was true with the Surround Decoder. For some reason, PCM 5.1 to Surround sounds like crap... When the Movie has Netflix Atmos sound, it's fine. I also found that if you set DTS:Neural:X as the default for 5.1, if you play a Netflix Movie with "Atmos", the processor switches off DTS to the correct decoder.
When the family came back home and we watched a movie, everyone commented on how much better it sounded.
On the bright side, I now can dodge the "why don't we use the soundbar" question!
Thanks everyone for the suggestion!!!
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cawgijoe
Emo VIPs 
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,033
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Post by cawgijoe on Oct 3, 2021 8:44:18 GMT -5
I did a little experiment last night when the house was empty (no kids!). Watching a Netflix movie on my AppleTV (PCM 5.1 output), I switched between Input 1 (Auto) and Input 2 (DTS:Neural:X). The difference was shocking. Using DTS:Neural:X, the channels were level and balanced. The Center Channel was clear... The opposite was true with the Surround Decoder. For some reason, PCM 5.1 to Surround sounds like crap... When the Movie has Netflix Atmos sound, it's fine. I also found that if you set DTS:Neural:X as the default for 5.1, if you play a Netflix Movie with "Atmos", the processor switches off DTS to the correct decoder. When the family came back home and we watched a movie, everyone commented on how much better it sounded. On the bright side, I now can dodge the "why don't we use the soundbar" question! Thanks everyone for the suggestion!!! I don’t currently have Atmos, but I noticed the same effect especially on the center channel. Prior to using Neural X, I was constantly fiddling with the output of the CC, which really did not do much. Thanks Doc! |
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Post by Topend on Oct 3, 2021 9:37:17 GMT -5
Any word on when the next firmware release will be? I keep hoping for relief of the snaps and pops. I’m hoping for an update too. The snaps and pops are noticed by the whole family. Dave. |
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Post by routlaw on Oct 3, 2021 11:27:37 GMT -5
The opposite was true with the Surround Decoder. For some reason, PCM 5.1 to Surround sounds like crap... When the Movie has Netflix Atmos sound, it's fine. I also found that if you set DTS:Neural:X as the default for 5.1, if you play a Netflix Movie with "Atmos", the processor switches off DTS to the correct decoder. We almost exclusively use an Apple TV and while streaming via the Apple TV+ programming which are mostly encoded in Dolby Atmos the DTS:Neural X is not an option. However the soundtrack sounds fine even with RMC-1L showing True HD as the sound source. Not sure we have encountered PCM 5.1 yet with any streaming, but have only had the new pre-pro for a couple of weeks or so now, so still learning. It is worth mentioning however we have not experienced any loud clicks or pops but on rare occasions an extremely feint tick certainly nothing to feel concerned about. |
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richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
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Post by richb on Oct 3, 2021 12:29:04 GMT -5
The opposite was true with the Surround Decoder. For some reason, PCM 5.1 to Surround sounds like crap... When the Movie has Netflix Atmos sound, it's fine. I also found that if you set DTS:Neural:X as the default for 5.1, if you play a Netflix Movie with "Atmos", the processor switches off DTS to the correct decoder. We almost exclusively use an Apple TV and while streaming via the Apple TV+ programming which are mostly encoded in Dolby Atmos the DTS:Neural X is not an option. However the soundtrack sounds fine even with RMC-1L showing True HD as the sound source. Not sure we have encountered PCM 5.1 yet with any streaming, but have only had the new pre-pro for a couple of weeks or so now, so still learning. It is worth mentioning however we have not experienced any loud clicks or pops but on rare occasions an extremely feint tick certainly nothing to feel concerned about. I have encountered PCM 5.1 for ATV4K streamed content. It is true, that DD 5.1 send in a MAT container is often displayed as TrueHD (though it is not) on the RMC-1. It may display Atmos, but since I have a 5.2 system, I never see that. - Rich |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 3, 2021 13:13:22 GMT -5
The opposite was true with the Surround Decoder. For some reason, PCM 5.1 to Surround sounds like crap... When the Movie has Netflix Atmos sound, it's fine. I also found that if you set DTS:Neural:X as the default for 5.1, if you play a Netflix Movie with "Atmos", the processor switches off DTS to the correct decoder. We almost exclusively use an Apple TV and while streaming via the Apple TV+ programming which are mostly encoded in Dolby Atmos the DTS:Neural X is not an option. However the soundtrack sounds fine even with RMC-1L showing True HD as the sound source. Not sure we have encountered PCM 5.1 yet with any streaming, but have only had the new pre-pro for a couple of weeks or so now, so still learning. It is worth mentioning however we have not experienced any loud clicks or pops but on rare occasions an extremely feint tick certainly nothing to feel concerned about. What I have found is that if I use Auto for the 5.x setting (which means using the DSU for any upmixing) my occasional pops are minor, but if I go into the menu and scroll through the sound formats (Neural:X, DSU, Stereo,etc.), then I encounter some pretty significant pops and clicks. |
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Post by bitzerjdb on Oct 3, 2021 13:29:09 GMT -5
The opposite was true with the Surround Decoder. For some reason, PCM 5.1 to Surround sounds like crap... When the Movie has Netflix Atmos sound, it's fine. I also found that if you set DTS:Neural:X as the default for 5.1, if you play a Netflix Movie with "Atmos", the processor switches off DTS to the correct decoder. We almost exclusively use an Apple TV and while streaming via the Apple TV+ programming which are mostly encoded in Dolby Atmos the DTS:Neural X is not an option. However the soundtrack sounds fine even with RMC-1L showing True HD as the sound source. Not sure we have encountered PCM 5.1 yet with any streaming, but have only had the new pre-pro for a couple of weeks or so now, so still learning. It is worth mentioning however we have not experienced any loud clicks or pops but on rare occasions an extremely feint tick certainly nothing to feel concerned about. I found that True HD sounds fine with the Surround Decoder... It's PCM 5.1 (a Majority of Netflix movies) that sounds like crap. Using DTS for PCM 5.1 is a major improvement. My system is a 7.2 system and the source is a 4K AppleTV streamer. I did another test today, doing an A/B switch between Inputs and the difference was noticeable. |
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Post by adam631 on Oct 3, 2021 16:26:04 GMT -5
Any word on when the next firmware release will be? I keep hoping for relief of the snaps and pops. I’m hoping for an update too. The snaps and pops are noticed by the whole family. Dave. I've been on 2.2 since it came out and haven't switched to 2.3 because it's been working really well for me. Just yesterday for the 1st time i started to get a lot of snaps and pops, so i installed 2.3 and the noises were gone. I noticed right away that my bass was lowered a few db's, so i reinstalled 2.2 and my bass is back to normal and no snaps or pops. Maybe you can try to uninstall and reinstall your firmware, and hopefully the noises you are experiencing will go away. |
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Post by novisnick on Oct 3, 2021 16:46:30 GMT -5
I’m hoping for an update too. The snaps and pops are noticed by the whole family. Dave. I've been on 2.2 since it came out and haven't switched to 2.3 because it's been working really well for me. Just yesterday for the 1st time i started to get a lot of snaps and pops, so i installed 2.3 and the noises were gone. I noticed right away that my bass was lowered a few db's, so i reinstalled 2.2 and my bass is back to normal and no snaps or pops. Maybe you can try to uninstall and reinstall your firmware, and hopefully the noises you are experiencing will go away. I’ve found that most problems that show up can be fixed, at least temporarily, by flipping the switch on the back of the processor. It’s a computer and needs a new boot up every now and then. Yesterday I couldn’t get my PC to see my Ethernet and after many attempts I tried my own advice. After reboot the PC worked fine and immediately it saw the network. |
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Post by adam631 on Oct 3, 2021 16:59:42 GMT -5
I've been on 2.2 since it came out and haven't switched to 2.3 because it's been working really well for me. Just yesterday for the 1st time i started to get a lot of snaps and pops, so i installed 2.3 and the noises were gone. I noticed right away that my bass was lowered a few db's, so i reinstalled 2.2 and my bass is back to normal and no snaps or pops. Maybe you can try to uninstall and reinstall your firmware, and hopefully the noises you are experiencing will go away. I’ve found that most problems that show up can be fixed, at least temporarily, by flipping the switch on the back of the processor. It’s a computer and needs a new boot up every now and then. Yesterday I couldn’t get my PC to see my Ethernet and after many attempts I tried my own advice. After reboot the PC worked fine and immediately it saw the network. I tried that and it didn't work. I also tried a factory reset, but the only thing that worked was to reinstall the firmware. |
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Post by routlaw on Oct 3, 2021 17:07:23 GMT -5
I have encountered PCM 5.1 for ATV4K streamed content. It is true, that DD 5.1 send in a MAT container is often displayed as TrueHD (though it is not) on the RMC-1. It may display Atmos, but since I have a 5.2 system, I never see that. - Rich Likewise I am only on a 5 point system, in my case 5.5. Not sure what is meant by a MAT container but apparently from your comment above there are some incorrect displays shown vs what one actually is hearing in terms of the audio coming from the RMC-1. Is this due to the complexity of home theater and all if its iterations and various codecs or is the an anomaly of the RMC/XMC series pre-pros? This has probably been discussed ad nauseam in the past but the thought of digesting hundreds if not thousands of post to decipher it all is a daunting task. Thanks |
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Post by routlaw on Oct 3, 2021 17:12:28 GMT -5
What I have found is that if I use Auto for the 5.x setting (which means using the DSU for any upmixing) my occasional pops are minor, but if I go into the menu and scroll through the sound formats (Neural:X, DSU, Stereo,etc.), then I encounter some pretty significant pops and clicks. Interesting results though I have yet to encounter the same so far, but then again I only have a 5.5 system and as previously stated Neural:X is not an option if Dolby Atmos is the stated source. This stuff is getting more like rocket science every year, not simpler but far more complex. |
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Post by routlaw on Oct 3, 2021 17:14:18 GMT -5
I found that True HD sounds fine with the Surround Decoder... It's PCM 5.1 (a Majority of Netflix movies) that sounds like crap. Using DTS for PCM 5.1 is a major improvement. My system is a 7.2 system and the source is a 4K AppleTV streamer. I did another test today, doing an A/B switch between Inputs and the difference was noticeable. Thanks, good tip if and when I do encounter PCM 5.1 and similar. |
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Post by jbrunwa on Oct 3, 2021 17:21:21 GMT -5
I’ve found that most problems that show up can be fixed, at least temporarily, by flipping the switch on the back of the processor. It’s a computer and needs a new boot up every now and then. Yesterday I couldn’t get my PC to see my Ethernet and after many attempts I tried my own advice. After reboot the PC worked fine and immediately it saw the network. I tried that and it didn't work. I also tried a factory reset, but the only thing that worked was to reinstall the firmware. Emotiva is no different in that most modern AVRs are computers, although they may be different in using an ARM Linux-based platform. I have often wondered if the CPU is just not fast or powerful enough on this platform. But I will add that tech support for the JBL SDP-75 recommended to reboot their AVR daily for best reliability. In any event, I have to think It should be possible either to eliminate the source of the snap, or if not, to mute the audio for a fraction of a second when audio modes change, and that this would be less objectionable to most customers. Hopefully the developers can fix the issues. |
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Post by novisnick on Oct 3, 2021 17:54:03 GMT -5
I tried that and it didn't work. I also tried a factory reset, but the only thing that worked was to reinstall the firmware. Emotiva is no different in that most modern AVRs are computers, although they may be different in using an ARM Linux-based platform. I have often wondered if the CPU is just not fast or powerful enough on this platform. But I will add that tech support for the JBL SDP-75 recommended to reboot their AVR daily for best reliability. In any event, I have to think It should be possible either to eliminate the source of the snap, or if not, to mute the audio for a fraction of a second when audio modes change, and that this would be less objectionable to most customers. Hopefully the developers can fix the issues. By no means did I suggest that continued work cease on the development of the FW. If I came across that way I apologize. A reboot has just been a method to kind of reset the computer. These ticks, pops and snaps need to go away and I urge Emotiva to continue their work on the processors. |
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Post by novisnick on Oct 3, 2021 17:55:21 GMT -5
I’ve found that most problems that show up can be fixed, at least temporarily, by flipping the switch on the back of the processor. It’s a computer and needs a new boot up every now and then. Yesterday I couldn’t get my PC to see my Ethernet and after many attempts I tried my own advice. After reboot the PC worked fine and immediately it saw the network. I tried that and it didn't work. I also tried a factory reset, but the only thing that worked was to reinstall the firmware. Sometimes a reinstall is the best remedy. 🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶 |
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