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Post by PaulBe on Aug 4, 2022 6:30:03 GMT -5
I just tried to play Drive to Survive on Netflix and it works fine thru the XMC-2, with OSD reporting 2160P/50. Is it possible that it is some apps do not support frame rate matching on the ATV4K? ...Connecting an HDMI device directly to a display is always going to give you the most available resolutions and the fastest switching between framerates and dynamic range. Adding a third HDMI device (processor) to the circle complicates this immensely as the devices try to agree on their supported resolutions... The 4K players I have all have OSD and other processing. I can display the OSD and adjust settings without any interference with the video. Device agreement happens within the same physical box. If a service provider is used, device agreement happens between source and destination - lots of connections and distance in between. The common problems are the RMC, and multiplicity of source standards. This should not be complicated. The industry has created a standards and HDMI mess for the consumer. For the future, I hope EMO errs on the side of robust compatibility. Spend a few extra dollars to save a lot of headache for yourselves and customers. In EMO's defense, compatibility pronouns should NOT be 'HDamI' and 'guessmyflavor'. |
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EmoBrent
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Processor and Product Support
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Post by EmoBrent on Aug 4, 2022 8:42:36 GMT -5
...Connecting an HDMI device directly to a display is always going to give you the most available resolutions and the fastest switching between framerates and dynamic range. Adding a third HDMI device (processor) to the circle complicates this immensely as the devices try to agree on their supported resolutions... The 4K players I have all have OSD and other processing. I can display the OSD and adjust settings without any interference with the video. Device agreement happens within the same physical box. If a service provider is used, device agreement happens between source and destination - lots of connections and distance in between. The common problems are the RMC, and multiplicity of source standards. This should not be complicated. The industry has created a standards and HDMI mess for the consumer. For the future, I hope EMO errs on the side of robust compatibility. Spend a few extra dollars to save a lot of headache for yourselves and customers. In EMO's defense, compatibility pronouns should NOT be 'HDamI' and 'guessmyflavor'. HDMI is a mess and hardly a standard the way it has been set up from the get go, plus never really was meant to pass the kinds of bandwidth we now ask of it. Being the repeater or middle-man in HDMI poses a challenge to try to capture all of the different permutations of device compatibility. And it is only getting more complex regarding features offered, with HDCP always there making it more of a headache. Would love for a new A/V standard to be developed and ditch the HDMI think altogether! Or at least for everyone to handle it the same way, you know, like a standard... But with that said, we should be and will be better at HDMI compatibility. I am loathe to keep mentioning the pending firmware release, but a more robust HDMI should be one of the main outcomes of the next firmware. I am not necessarily saying it will be faster, but more consistent and agreeable. |
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Post by housetech on Aug 4, 2022 12:44:16 GMT -5
The 4K players I have all have OSD and other processing. I can display the OSD and adjust settings without any interference with the video. Device agreement happens within the same physical box. If a service provider is used, device agreement happens between source and destination - lots of connections and distance in between. The common problems are the RMC, and multiplicity of source standards. This should not be complicated. The industry has created a standards and HDMI mess for the consumer. For the future, I hope EMO errs on the side of robust compatibility. Spend a few extra dollars to save a lot of headache for yourselves and customers. In EMO's defense, compatibility pronouns should NOT be 'HDamI' and 'guessmyflavor'. HDMI is a mess and hardly a standard the way it has been set up from the get go, plus never really was meant to pass the kinds of bandwidth we now ask of it. Being the repeater or middle-man in HDMI poses a challenge to try to capture all of the different permutations of device compatibility. And it is only getting more complex regarding features offered, with HDCP always there making it more of a headache. Would love for a new A/V standard to be developed and ditch the HDMI think altogether! Or at least for everyone to handle it the same way, you know, like a standard... But with that said, we should be and will be better at HDMI compatibility. I am loathe to keep mentioning the pending firmware release, but a more robust HDMI should be one of the main outcomes of the next firmware. I am not necessarily saying it will be faster, but more consistent and agreeable. The HDMI Forum (dot org) must come to the realization HDMI doesn't have any consistency, it doesn't work as envisioned. Their stubbornness to admit the facts are hurting consumers & manufacturers. I believe the audio and video signals need to be divided as it was in analogue. |
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Post by jbrunwa on Aug 4, 2022 13:06:44 GMT -5
Yeah, 60 mbps is pretty slow by todays standards (but still 2x what you need for 4k movies, so that's good), that's probably why its working for you. It seems to happen with fast speeds where the data arrives in big chunks with long time between chunks, as opposed to small but more frequent chunks. So it seems to depend on what's upstream from the ATV4K and how data is being buffered. But whatever the reason, if it happens to a given ATV4K, wireless seems to be a good workaround. Also I hear it happens more for gen 2 than gen 1 ATV4K units. All correct. With faster wired speeds the data rushes in, then stops for around 8 seconds, then another fast rush. With the speed limited to 30Mbps the data is almost continuous within a range of between 18-29Mbps. So it's a slower rise and fall and rise and fall, continuously, and is still more speed than is needed for 4K/DV/ATMOS from the ATV4K. Faster speeds exacerbates the problem for those who have the problem, but as has been mentioned, not every system has the problem. A lot of those I've communicated with who have more problems with this issue have Marantz processors, so I initially thought it was a Marantz issue, but it's not, just like it's not an Emotiva problem either. The earliest batches of ATV4K-2021 seem to be the ones affected the most. It shows that Emotiva is not the only brand to have these Atmos dropouts. Having said that, IMO the behavior described by the Stephen Park is extreme. Marantz, Arcam, etc. lose audio for a few seconds after which they automatically lock in Atmos and sound returns. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 4, 2022 19:56:27 GMT -5
I see the RMC models have their own website now … not sure where the XMCs are supposed to go?  |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Aug 4, 2022 22:15:38 GMT -5
Using QoS on my Asus router. I went to the Qos section, chose the ATV4K, then typed in the bandwidth number I wanted to try. Maybe late tonight I can post some images showing this. Cool, never thought of using QoS for that 😎 The QoS Type I chose on the page shown in the image is Bandwidth Limiter. The image below shows ATV3 (my third one purchased) has the bandwidth limited to 30Mbps download and 12Mbps upload. My max upload on my internet account is 12Mbps.  |
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Post by Stephen Park on Aug 4, 2022 23:52:40 GMT -5
Yesterday I did change wired network to wifi - Atmos dropouts is gone!
This is absurd - I see many people complaining same problem with not only Emotiva but other brand as well, it is clearly APPLE who must fix this problem.
I don't still understand that why wired network is worse than wifi...?
Unfortunately, my internet router does not have QoS feature....
Problem is, our local DTV service app is on ATV and it only allowed to use with Wired network, I don't know why.
So I have to consider to buy ASUS or whatever router with QoS feature...
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Post by PaulBe on Aug 5, 2022 7:29:03 GMT -5
The 4K players I have all have OSD and other processing. I can display the OSD and adjust settings without any interference with the video. Device agreement happens within the same physical box. If a service provider is used, device agreement happens between source and destination - lots of connections and distance in between. The common problems are the RMC, and multiplicity of source standards. This should not be complicated. The industry has created a standards and HDMI mess for the consumer. For the future, I hope EMO errs on the side of robust compatibility. Spend a few extra dollars to save a lot of headache for yourselves and customers. In EMO's defense, compatibility pronouns should NOT be 'HDamI' and 'guessmyflavor'. HDMI is a mess and hardly a standard the way it has been set up from the get go, plus never really was meant to pass the kinds of bandwidth we now ask of it. Being the repeater or middle-man in HDMI poses a challenge to try to capture all of the different permutations of device compatibility. And it is only getting more complex regarding features offered, with HDCP always there making it more of a headache. Would love for a new A/V standard to be developed and ditch the HDMI think altogether! Or at least for everyone to handle it the same way, you know, like a standard... But with that said, we should be and will be better at HDMI compatibility. I am loathe to keep mentioning the pending firmware release, but a more robust HDMI should be one of the main outcomes of the next firmware. I am not necessarily saying it will be faster, but more consistent and agreeable. HDMI and HDCP was always just about profit and content protection. Nothing wrong with protecting intellectual property. Everything wrong with screwing the customer in the process, just for a few pennies. It's time to turn HDMI into a legacy connection and standard. Fiber is a better and cheaper connection. The industry lied about fiber's bandwidth limitations, from the very beginning. But, I digress, and I could rant about this for a long time. "Consistent and agreeable" is fine with me. As for my previous comment - "For the future, I hope EMO errs on the side of robust compatibility. Spend a few extra dollars to save a lot of headache for yourselves and customers." - Please, never back track on sound quality. |
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Post by jbrunwa on Aug 5, 2022 10:25:50 GMT -5
Yesterday I did change wired network to wifi - Atmos dropouts is gone! This is absurd - I see many people complaining same problem with not only Emotiva but other brand as well, it is clearly APPLE who must fix this problem. I don't still understand that why wired network is worse than wifi...? Unfortunately, my internet router does not have QoS feature.... Problem is, our local DTV service app is on ATV and it only allowed to use with Wired network, I don't know why. So I have to consider to buy ASUS or whatever router with QoS feature... There is a hope that tvOS 16 will fix the issue. I saw at least one person report the tvOS 16 beta release fixed it. I am not brave enough to use the beta releases. Since Apple has been silent about this we will not know for sure until the release. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 5, 2022 10:44:38 GMT -5
The problem is that it's way too late for that. First of all, I agree with your main statement, that HDCP is all about content protection. At some point, someone convinced someone else that "having someone tap into the HDMI line and record the content was a big risk". (Whereas it's always been much more practical to break the copy protection on a disc... and now on streamed content.) However, at some point, someone sold the studio folks on the idea that this was a huge risk which needed to be mitigated, and so HDCP was spawned. However, while HDCP made the HDMI standard much more complicated, and in turn led to many of its current problems, HDMI DID have some good points. A digital signal is a much better idea than an analog signal. And being able to automatically negotiate the best format that all of the devices involve support is a huge benefit as well. HDMI really is a good idea... and COULD have been very nice. It's also unfair to say that anyone specifically "lied about the bandwidth capabilities of fiber". As recently as twenty years ago fiber interfaces and cables that were capable of multi-gigabit speeds were VERY expensive. The type of hardware used with Toslink, which is relatively cheap, is also relatively slow. Back when the HDMI standard was first developed, which was quite a while ago, multi-gigabit fiber interfaces and interconnects cost hundreds or thousands of dollars. (Just as a five-port gigabit-Ethernet switch, which costs $5 today, cost a thousand bucks the day they came out, and a decent 100 mBit Ethernet card used to cost $300+.) Unfortunately, at this point, HDMI is THE standard for "direct video transmission". And, in order to change that, EVERYONE would have to agree on a new and different standard. HOWEVER you are also completely mis-stating the problem and the current situation. At this point in the development of the technology there is no longer a REASON to send a full-bandwidth "decoded" video signal between devices. Virtually everything most of us watch arrives over an Ethernet connection. The most sensible solution would be to send this signal straight to the TV, over an Ethernet connection, and decode it there. Do you really think the circuitry in your Roku or Apple TV does a better job of decoding an h.265 video signal than your TV could? And you DO realize that, from that Roku, through our processor, and on to your TV, nobody is doing ANY video processing on that signal... The ONLY technological reason to decode that signal before it gets to the TV is to allow us to decode and access the audio portion of it... (And, once eARC becomes ubiquitous, there won't be any need for that either.) (And, from the point of AppleTV or Roku, to give them an opportunity to interpose their menu system and extras.) In short HDMI is NOT going to be replaced by fiber. It's going to be rendered obsolete by a direct Ethernet connection to the TV and an eARC connection from the TV to your audio system. (And someone will create a standard to do eARC over Ethernet.) The video will be handled directly by the TV and the audio will be passed on to your audio system. And, if you like, that Ethernet connection can be done using fiber, but it really doesn't matter much. (If the network industry has its way, in a few years it will probably be done wirelessly over 5g, but we'll see on that one.) And, assuming Blu-Ray players even still exist, they'll simply have an Ethernet output, and use the same network as everyone else (or maybe someday 5g). (And either HDCP will just fade away... or they'll use an encrypted connection over Ethernet that complies with the requirements of the standard.) HDMI is a mess and hardly a standard the way it has been set up from the get go, plus never really was meant to pass the kinds of bandwidth we now ask of it. Being the repeater or middle-man in HDMI poses a challenge to try to capture all of the different permutations of device compatibility. And it is only getting more complex regarding features offered, with HDCP always there making it more of a headache. Would love for a new A/V standard to be developed and ditch the HDMI think altogether! Or at least for everyone to handle it the same way, you know, like a standard... But with that said, we should be and will be better at HDMI compatibility. I am loathe to keep mentioning the pending firmware release, but a more robust HDMI should be one of the main outcomes of the next firmware. I am not necessarily saying it will be faster, but more consistent and agreeable. HDMI and HDCP was always just about profit and content protection. Nothing wrong with protecting intellectual property. Everything wrong with screwing the customer in the process, just for a few pennies. It's time to turn HDMI into a legacy connection and standard. Fiber is a better and cheaper connection. The industry lied about fiber's bandwidth limitations, from the very beginning. But, I digress, and I could rant about this for a long time. "Consistent and agreeable" is fine with me. As for my previous comment - "For the future, I hope EMO errs on the side of robust compatibility. Spend a few extra dollars to save a lot of headache for yourselves and customers." - Please, never back track on sound quality. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 5, 2022 11:10:27 GMT -5
What you need to understand is that HDMI is being replaced by other technologies in general. If you buy a nice new smart TV, you can plug in an Ethernet cable, and connect to all of your favorite streaming services. Where is the HDMI cable in all that? Blu-Ray discs are on the way out... And streaming apps and other capabilities in TVs are getting ever better... (So, even today, the only use many people are getting out of that HDMI cable is ARC.) HDMI is a mess and hardly a standard the way it has been set up from the get go, plus never really was meant to pass the kinds of bandwidth we now ask of it. Being the repeater or middle-man in HDMI poses a challenge to try to capture all of the different permutations of device compatibility. And it is only getting more complex regarding features offered, with HDCP always there making it more of a headache. Would love for a new A/V standard to be developed and ditch the HDMI think altogether! Or at least for everyone to handle it the same way, you know, like a standard... But with that said, we should be and will be better at HDMI compatibility. I am loathe to keep mentioning the pending firmware release, but a more robust HDMI should be one of the main outcomes of the next firmware. I am not necessarily saying it will be faster, but more consistent and agreeable. The HDMI Forum (dot org) must come to the realization HDMI doesn't have any consistency, it doesn't work as envisioned. Their stubbornness to admit the facts are hurting consumers & manufacturers. I believe the audio and video signals need to be divided as it was in analogue. |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Aug 5, 2022 12:43:15 GMT -5
I don't know the actual reason... but I can offer a couple of guesses... 1. The wired Ethernet port uses different hardware and different drivers than the wired port. There may be some flaw or bug in the wired Ethernet hardware or drivers that doesn't exist in the WiFi hardware and drivers. 2. When the AppleTV negotiates video resolution and frame rate it takes the speed of the network connection into account. It's possible that, when it sees a very fast network connection, it is attempting to negotiate a set of parameters that don't work right. It could be attempting to negotiate parameters it is unable to operate reliably at due to other limitations... Or it could be negotiating "too optimistically" and choosing parameters that work when the connection is at peak speed... but then cause dropouts when the speed varies... Yesterday I did change wired network to wifi - Atmos dropouts is gone! This is absurd - I see many people complaining same problem with not only Emotiva but other brand as well, it is clearly APPLE who must fix this problem. I don't still understand that why wired network is worse than wifi...? Unfortunately, my internet router does not have QoS feature.... Problem is, our local DTV service app is on ATV and it only allowed to use with Wired network, I don't know why. So I have to consider to buy ASUS or whatever router with QoS feature... |
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Post by panasonicst60 on Aug 5, 2022 12:49:36 GMT -5
What you need to understand is that HDMI is being replaced by other technologies in general. If you buy a nice new smart TV, you can plug in an Ethernet cable, and connect to all of your favorite streaming services. Where is the HDMI cable in all that? Blu-Ray discs are on the way out... And streaming apps and other capabilities in TVs are getting ever better... (So, even today, the only use many people are getting out of that HDMI cable is ARC.) The HDMI Forum (dot org) must come to the realization HDMI doesn't have any consistency, it doesn't work as envisioned. Their stubbornness to admit the facts are hurting consumers & manufacturers. I believe the audio and video signals need to be divided as it was in analogue. I'm all about physical media. If you say physical media is on its way out you must not care about picture quality or read the news. Physical media is more of a niche market I would say, but it's far from being out. For example, 4k UHD movies had it's highest sale last month ever. Currently uhd disc are getting released like never before. |
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Post by geebo on Aug 5, 2022 12:53:20 GMT -5
Is this ATV4K issue unique to the gen2? I have the gen1 ATV4K with a wired connection of 900mbps as tested using the Speedtest app from the ATV. No dropouts whatsoever using Ethernet.
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EmoBrent
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Post by EmoBrent on Aug 5, 2022 12:58:18 GMT -5
Is this ATV4K issue unique to the gen2? I have the gen1 ATV4K with a wired connection of 900mbps as tested using the Speedtest app from the ATV. No dropouts whatsoever using Ethernet. It may just be the Gen2, or the content you are watching doesn't fall into the mix that is losing Atmos. More likely to be a difference in the hardware/software between generations. Glad you aren't experiencing this either way! |
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richb
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Post by richb on Aug 5, 2022 12:59:41 GMT -5
What you need to understand is that HDMI is being replaced by other technologies in general. If you buy a nice new smart TV, you can plug in an Ethernet cable, and connect to all of your favorite streaming services. Where is the HDMI cable in all that? Blu-Ray discs are on the way out... And streaming apps and other capabilities in TVs are getting ever better... (So, even today, the only use many people are getting out of that HDMI cable is ARC.) I'm all about physical media. If you say physical media is on its way out you must not care about picture quality or read the news. Physical media is more of a niche market I would say, but it's far from being out. For example, 4k UHD movies had it's highest sale last month ever. Currently uhd disc are getting released like never before. Streaming devices are not going out either. Many built in apps do not support native frame rate and can have other issues.’ Eventually, the TV apps will no longer receive updates. The notion that HDMI is declining seems anecdotal. - Rich |
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richb
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Post by richb on Aug 5, 2022 13:10:27 GMT -5
What you need to understand is that HDMI is being replaced by other technologies in general. If you buy a nice new smart TV, you can plug in an Ethernet cable, and connect to all of your favorite streaming services. Where is the HDMI cable in all that? Blu-Ray discs are on the way out... And streaming apps and other capabilities in TVs are getting ever better... (So, even today, the only use many people are getting out of that HDMI cable is ARC.) The HDMI Forum (dot org) must come to the realization HDMI doesn't have any consistency, it doesn't work as envisioned. Their stubbornness to admit the facts are hurting consumers & manufacturers. I believe the audio and video signals need to be divided as it was in analogue. By this you mean streaming is the predominant technology. Eventually, TV streaming apps are no longer supported on the display. Then, the tech savvy customer, buys a streaming device and connects via HDMI. The ATV4K is a very good streamer. I have standardized it and my family knows how to use it. It is yet another reason why external devices are preferred by many. Even if TV streaming is sizable, I suspect Emitova customer may skew toward dedicated streamer. That would include nearly all projectors. There are many market charts that differ, but generally, they show more stand-alone device usage over TV.  - Rich |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Aug 5, 2022 13:23:35 GMT -5
Is this ATV4K issue unique to the gen2? I have the gen1 ATV4K with a wired connection of 900mbps as tested using the Speedtest app from the ATV. No dropouts whatsoever using Ethernet. I'm not certain that it's "unique" to the Gen2. Some have had the issue with Gen1. While I don't have any evidence to support what I think, while the problem is real, is all Apple's problem to fix, I think that the router being used can exacerbate the issue, or make it such that it doesn't happen at all. IMO it's another "which group of devices like each other" kinda thing. I tried to find out "exact" setup info from several guys both privately and publicly, but after 3 times asking basically the same thing and getting wishy washy replies, I gave up. I was trying to nail down exact router model info and setup. It wasn't until I decided to try testing a wired connection and found that wired was the only way my setup would fail that a bunch of folks spoke up and said "hey, that's right, I'm using wired and not WiFi". Then lots of others started chiming in and stating either problem with wired, or, no problem with WiFi. I also was trying to track device manufacturing dates, which I believe makes a difference, and that went nowhere fast. Maybe I'll try my old ATV4K from 2017 (I think that's when I bought it) over the weekend. Bottom line, like all this modern day tech stuff, some have problems, and some don't. It's a box of chocolates. |
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EmoBrent
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Post by EmoBrent on Aug 5, 2022 13:23:42 GMT -5
I think that physical A/V media, or at least copies/rips of uncompressed media played on local devices, and dedicated streamers, etc. will continue to exist for some time, at least for serious enthusiasts. And just look at CDs trying to make a comeback. There will be a place for physical media, even if just a niche, simply due to human fascination with physical objects if nothing else. Of course, I have stacks and stacks of vinyl at home, so that is my perspective and how I like to enjoy listening, even if "technically inferior" in all ways to digital media. Keith and I have had such conversations in the past, that is for sure, and we have different perspectives. Most of the folks who have the buying power to put together big media systems are old enough to have grown up with and remember the times of VHS, DVDs, and Blu-rays. So I think in some ways that familiarity alone will bolster physical media until there is some generational turnover with who is buying.
Until smart TV apps, ARC, and operating systems become more stable and reliable and bandwidth increases to the point where uncompressed audio and video can be passed via streaming, physical media will stick around. But eventually, I could see a self-contained system in the display to handle all media playback. Many smart TV OS are pretty half-baked at this point.
I will continue to hope for the post-HDMI days regardless. Whatever replaces it can't be worse, right?
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Post by geebo on Aug 5, 2022 13:41:18 GMT -5
I think that physical A/V media, or at least copies/rips of uncompressed media played on local devices, and dedicated streamers, etc. will continue to exist for some time, at least for serious enthusiasts. And just look at CDs trying to make a comeback. There will be a place for physical media, even if just a niche, simply due to human fascination with physical objects if nothing else. Of course, I have stacks and stacks of vinyl at home, so that is my perspective and how I like to enjoy listening, even if "technically inferior" in all ways to digital media. Keith and I have had such conversations in the past, that is for sure, and we have different perspectives. Most of the folks who have the buying power to put together big media systems are old enough to have grown up with and remember the times of VHS, DVDs, and Blu-rays. So I think in some ways that familiarity alone will bolster physical media until there is some generational turnover with who is buying. Until smart TV apps, ARC, and operating systems become more stable and reliable and bandwidth increases to the point where uncompressed audio and video can be passed via streaming, physical media will stick around. But eventually, I could see a self-contained system in the display to handle all media playback. Many smart TV OS are pretty half-baked at this point. I will continue to hope for the post-HDMI days regardless. Whatever replaces it can't be worse, right? Don't ever say things couldn't be worse.  |
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