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Post by BigE on Aug 5, 2022 13:49:51 GMT -5
I'm all about physical media. If you say physical media is on its way out you must not care about picture quality or read the news. Physical media is more of a niche market I would say, but it's far from being out. For example, 4k UHD movies had it's highest sale last month ever. Currently uhd disc are getting released like never before. Streaming devices are not going out either. Many built in apps do not support native frame rate and can have other issues.’ Eventually, the TV apps will no longer receive updates. The notion that HDMI is declining seems anecdotal. - Rich Agreed. That's how they sell more new TV's. Move to new win os,don't offer drivers, now you get addl hardware revenue. My $600 adf scanner suffered that fate with win8. I stopped supporting that manufacturer. Moved to a $200 Epson inkjet mfd with adf and great networking capabilities. Also have a win7MCE exclusively to record OTA tv shows. |
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Post by BigE on Aug 5, 2022 13:55:26 GMT -5
I think that physical A/V media, or at least copies/rips of uncompressed media played on local devices, and dedicated streamers, etc. will continue to exist for some time, at least for serious enthusiasts. And just look at CDs trying to make a comeback. There will be a place for physical media, even if just a niche, simply due to human fascination with physical objects if nothing else. Of course, I have stacks and stacks of vinyl at home, so that is my perspective and how I like to enjoy listening, even if "technically inferior" in all ways to digital media. Keith and I have had such conversations in the past, that is for sure, and we have different perspectives. Most of the folks who have the buying power to put together big media systems are old enough to have grown up with and remember the times of VHS, DVDs, and Blu-rays. So I think in some ways that familiarity alone will bolster physical media until there is some generational turnover with who is buying. Until smart TV apps, ARC, and operating systems become more stable and reliable and bandwidth increases to the point where uncompressed audio and video can be passed via streaming, physical media will stick around. But eventually, I could see a self-contained system in the display to handle all media playback. Many smart TV OS are pretty half-baked at this point. I will continue to hope for the post-HDMI days regardless. Whatever replaces it can't be worse, right? Completely agree. Long live my owned media. Except my laserdiscs... Sold for $1 each to used bookstore. |
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Post by aswiss on Aug 5, 2022 15:43:36 GMT -5
Thanks to all the posts over the last some weeks. Conclusion: FW Update is postponed again (I don't understand soon anyway).
ARC: Thank god, all my devices are directly connected to my RMC-1 - TV is only used for picture. No issues anymore.
Even the Pop and clicks are less with Delay over 100ms.
Will check again in some weeks - it's too hot here in switzerland.
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Post by PaulBe on Aug 5, 2022 16:27:27 GMT -5
What you need to understand is that HDMI is being replaced by other technologies in general. If you buy a nice new smart TV, you can plug in an Ethernet cable, and connect to all of your favorite streaming services. Where is the HDMI cable in all that? Blu-Ray discs are on the way out... And streaming apps and other capabilities in TVs are getting ever better... (So, even today, the only use many people are getting out of that HDMI cable is ARC.) I'm all about physical media. If you say physical media is on its way out you must not care about picture quality or read the news. Physical media is more of a niche market I would say, but it's far from being out. For example, 4k UHD movies had it's highest sale last month ever. Currently uhd disc are getting released like never before. I'll take the physical media too. It's physical. Mine. High quality. And, untraceable in use. A server with the media loaded on it could be useful, but very expense with a large catalog. Current 4K Ultra HD Release Dates www.blu-ray.com/movies/releasedates.php?4k=1Great deals on older releases 4K Blu-ray Deals www.blu-ray.com/deals/?sortby=price&category=4kblurayIf the industry wants to make the connections via Ethernet or fiber, works for me. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 5, 2022 16:39:25 GMT -5
I agree - at the moment. Most of the current TV apps are pretty bad - and some of the stand-alone devices are - well - less bad. But I do believe that the TV apps will eventually converge on simply working correctly. At the moment, all of the apps, and all of the streaming devices, seem to have issues... But eventually it will converge on "deliver h.265 content to the customer and let them decode it". (Or whatever eventually replaces h.265 - since nothing lasts forever.) And, at that point, it makes sense to simply have the TV do the decoding. Right now there are too many unnecessary conversions, and matches, and adjustments going on. As far as I'm concerned, not only should I not have to select "match frame rate", but there shouldn't even be an option NOT to play at the original frame rate. (I can't imagine what idiot thought meddling with the frame rate by default was a good idea.) In other words I do think we'll eventually converge on "content as a commodity". You're buying such and such a movie, from such and such a studio, and it doesn't matter how you get it, or who delivers it. Bear in mind that, for a given movie, there is only ONE original version, with one original frame rate, and one original sound track. Why can't I just buy that version directly from the studio that owns it? What PURPOSE do the "streaming services" actually serve? For example - I should be receiving it at the original frame rate - so I should not have to "configure my player to match it". All of this other stuff with different frame rates and channel encoding is just more opportunities for things to go wrong. Of course everyone imagines that this system will somehow enable them to make more money off the deal. However, assuming you pay a certain amount, and the studio GETS PAYED a certain amount, what has the streaming service done to earn the part THEY keep? Can you honestly name a streaming service or device that makes life more convenient than typing the name of a movie you want to watch into your TV, paying for it, and having it play? What you need to understand is that HDMI is being replaced by other technologies in general. If you buy a nice new smart TV, you can plug in an Ethernet cable, and connect to all of your favorite streaming services. Where is the HDMI cable in all that? Blu-Ray discs are on the way out... And streaming apps and other capabilities in TVs are getting ever better... (So, even today, the only use many people are getting out of that HDMI cable is ARC.) By this you mean streaming is the predominant technology. Eventually, TV streaming apps are no longer supported on the display. Then, the tech savvy customer, buys a streaming device and connects via HDMI. The ATV4K is a very good streamer. I have standardized it and my family knows how to use it. It is yet another reason why external devices are preferred by many. Even if TV streaming is sizable, I suspect Emitova customer may shew toward dedicated streamer. That would include nearly all projectors. There are many market charts that differ, but generally, they show more stand-alone device usage over TV. View Attachment- Rich |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 5, 2022 16:47:29 GMT -5
You may be under a misapprehension about exactly what "physical media" means these days. That 4k-UHD disc is simply a physical piece of plastic with a computer file on it. That exact same file could be made available for me to download - and I could then store it on a hard drive that I personally own. The file on that plastic disc is in no way superior to that same file in any other format. The "physical media" is the package - and not the product. (But you are being forced to treat the two as if they were the same by not being allowed to purchase the file in any other form.) However the reality is that, while I personally agree with you, for now... (I'd rather have a copy on plastic because it's the only way I can get a copy I'm sure I'll be able to keep.) What you need to understand is that HDMI is being replaced by other technologies in general. If you buy a nice new smart TV, you can plug in an Ethernet cable, and connect to all of your favorite streaming services. Where is the HDMI cable in all that? Blu-Ray discs are on the way out... And streaming apps and other capabilities in TVs are getting ever better... (So, even today, the only use many people are getting out of that HDMI cable is ARC.) I'm all about physical media. If you say physical media is on its way out you must not care about picture quality or read the news. Physical media is more of a niche market I would say, but it's far from being out. For example, 4k UHD movies had it's highest sale last month ever. Currently uhd disc are getting released like never before. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 5, 2022 19:07:06 GMT -5
… There is a hope that tvOS 16 will fix the issue. I saw at least one person report the tvOS 16 beta release fixed it. I am not brave enough to use the beta releases. Since Apple has been silent about this we will not know for sure until the release. That would be nice, it’s surely in Apple’s court. I’d totally forgotten about this issue that’s fixed by switching to WiFi, because I have (4) TV4Ks, (2) G1s, (2) G2s (one very early, one very late), all of them have been on 1GB Ethernet and none have had this issue … but! Until last month my Internet speed was limited to 10 down / 3 up, which fits the scenario. Now that I have Starlink with speeds all over the place, I suppose I should expect this to start happening randomly. |
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Post by jasonf on Aug 5, 2022 19:57:07 GMT -5
I'm all about physical media. If you say physical media is on its way out you must not care about picture quality or read the news. Physical media is more of a niche market I would say, but it's far from being out. For example, 4k UHD movies had it's highest sale last month ever. Currently uhd disc are getting released like never before. I think the point being made was that physical media is on it's way out (it's already out) for the significant majority of consumers. There will always be folks who want to use physical media, but you'll just have to go through the old hoops for it - advances in HDMI tech aren't going to cater to you. |
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Post by hsamwel on Aug 5, 2022 20:13:39 GMT -5
Sometimes it can be one of the connected devices disturbing. Usually one of the older HDMI 1.x. It can also be so simple as a questionable cable. Which work sometimes, and sometimes not. Even though being ”certified”. People don’t think it can be the cable because it works most of the times. Also works fine if I connect it to ”this or that”. What they often don’t think about is the total length from source to processor and to the display device. Two 6ft cables suddenly becomes 12ft. Do the super thin Amazon cables work the same with that length, even though being certified? Nic's issue presents more like an HDCP conflict or EDID merge issue, not a cable bandwidth issue in his particular case. I do think that our processors are more sensitive to cable bandwidth and length than other HDMI switchers that get their hands into the video processing/resampling a little bit more than just the OSD. In my experience, unless there is an HDMI cable that is just way out of date or out of spec regarding length, HDMI issues are more often caused by EDID and HDCP conflicts due to device configuration settings and growing complexity of HDMI spec. Projectors are of course pickier about HDMI and tend to use longer cables so can be more susceptible to cabling in general. Our new 8K cert HDMI cables should be out in a week or so. I haven't tried the 3 meter samples yet, but the 1m and 2m lengths have been rock solid for all of the source devices and gaming consoles I have used so far and the run between processor and TV. Yes, thar’s what I meant. HDCP is usually the culprit. Not the actual HDMI video/audio transfer. But sometimes those thin cables can miss if they are used at the top of their limits. And no, I don’t think your hardware are worse than any other manufacturers. But your software is. The trouble is, it’s what counts. Having the best engine when the chassie sucks makes no great cars.. I’m hoping the next couple of firmwares are going to change this however. Would be nice if you could tell us a bit what you have changed to make it more stable? What I have read before, there have not ever been a problem on your side. It’s always other devices that doesn’t play nice. I have always used cables that exceed the specs. Supra for example, their old HDMI 1.3 cables can still be used for 4k.. Although not without limits. If not used with too long cables they still work fine and stable up to well above 10Gbps. Same with their newer ones. Always according to specs plus some extra bandwidth to ensure stable transfers for all cables. I pay a couple of extra $ to ensure I have absolutely rock steady cables. And they for sure are! 1-2m usually works on any cable really, unless broken. If you get stable transfers with full 18Gbps for several weeks without hickups then you have a good cable. The 8k ”certfied” ones should IMO always clear this. They should also clear 30Gbps without any hickups at all.. I can understand if there are some at 40-48Gbps. Those are insane tranfer speeds. Luckily we will probably never use this much bandwidth for HT atleast. |
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Post by jasonf on Aug 5, 2022 20:15:35 GMT -5
The most sensible solution would be to send this signal straight to the TV, over an Ethernet connection, and decode it there. Do you really think the circuitry in your Roku or Apple TV does a better job of decoding an h.265 video signal than your TV could? Well, since Apple has purpose built H.265 decoders on Apple Silicon, ya I think the AppleTV is a pretty good decoder. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but Apple has to decode the video in order to do things like render a scrubber on a video window or render "up next" overlays when credits are running. That said, I'm sure they could recompress on the way to the TV, but then the processor just has to decompress again to get the audio right? It seems like the way things are going is that the AppleTV will probably decode, and then HDMI 2.1 will send it with DSC, no? It does seem like audio should be a different stream, so that it can keep playing even when video mode switching needs to happen. And there is an HDMI 2.1 expansion card with eARC coming soon right...? RIGHT? ;-) Let me know where to send my deposit. How does that work? |
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Post by PaulBe on Aug 5, 2022 20:21:44 GMT -5
You may be under a misapprehension about exactly what "physical media" means these days. That 4k-UHD disc is simply a physical piece of plastic with a computer file on it. That exact same file could be made available for me to download - and I could then store it on a hard drive that I personally own. The file on that plastic disc is in no way superior to that same file in any other format. The "physical media" is the package - and not the product. (But you are being forced to treat the two as if they were the same by not being allowed to purchase the file in any other form.) However the reality is that, while I personally agree with you, for now... (I'd rather have a copy on plastic because it's the only way I can get a copy I'm sure I'll be able to keep.) I'm all about physical media. If you say physical media is on its way out you must not care about picture quality or read the news. Physical media is more of a niche market I would say, but it's far from being out. For example, 4k UHD movies had it's highest sale last month ever. Currently uhd disc are getting released like never before. The "physical media" is the package - AND the product. Always has been, since the wax cylinder. Having it is the best way I can keep it, and pass it on. I think the 'pass it on' part is what the industry is most concerned about. Ones and zeros in the cloud have great consumer cost and provider profit, with little consumer value. It's always 'all about the money'. It's going to become increasingly about personal data gathering and social credit. You will own nothing and be happy. |
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Post by hsamwel on Aug 5, 2022 20:27:51 GMT -5
… There is a hope that tvOS 16 will fix the issue. I saw at least one person report the tvOS 16 beta release fixed it. I am not brave enough to use the beta releases. Since Apple has been silent about this we will not know for sure until the release. That would be nice, it’s surely in Apple’s court. I’d totally forgotten about this issue that’s fixed by switching to WiFi, because I have (4) TV4Ks, (2) G1s, (2) G2s (one very early, one very late), all of them have been on 1GB Ethernet and none have had this issue … but! Until last month my Internet speed was limited to 10 down / 3 up, which fits the scenario. Now that I have Starlink with speeds all over the place, I suppose I should expect this to start happening randomly. I have had the three last generation of AppleTVs in my setup. None have had this issue. Always connected by wire ethernet. I currently use AppleTV 4k gen2 on a 1Gbit connection internally with a 100Mbit internet provider. I used to have 250Mbit but cut it down to 100Mbit to save some money as I noticed I never exceeded 100Mbit. Checked the speed and got +240Mbit before and +100Mbit now into AppleTV. I have no limiter (QoS) setup in my router. The whole feature is turned off. |
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Post by PaulBe on Aug 5, 2022 20:29:15 GMT -5
I'm all about physical media. If you say physical media is on its way out you must not care about picture quality or read the news. Physical media is more of a niche market I would say, but it's far from being out. For example, 4k UHD movies had it's highest sale last month ever. Currently uhd disc are getting released like never before. I think the point being made was that physical media is on it's way out (it's already out) for the significant majority of consumers. There will always be folks who want to use physical media, but you'll just have to go through the old hoops for it - advances in HDMI tech aren't going to cater to you. What advances in HDMI tech are catering to you? |
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Post by hsamwel on Aug 5, 2022 20:53:11 GMT -5
You may be under a misapprehension about exactly what "physical media" means these days. That 4k-UHD disc is simply a physical piece of plastic with a computer file on it. That exact same file could be made available for me to download - and I could then store it on a hard drive that I personally own. The file on that plastic disc is in no way superior to that same file in any other format. The "physical media" is the package - and not the product. (But you are being forced to treat the two as if they were the same by not being allowed to purchase the file in any other form.) However the reality is that, while I personally agree with you, for now... (I'd rather have a copy on plastic because it's the only way I can get a copy I'm sure I'll be able to keep.) I'm all about physical media. If you say physical media is on its way out you must not care about picture quality or read the news. Physical media is more of a niche market I would say, but it's far from being out. For example, 4k UHD movies had it's highest sale last month ever. Currently uhd disc are getting released like never before. The problem being were to store all those big full size files. Yes, you could have several really big TB harddrives. But you would need to back them up to secure you’ll not loose all your buys. Double drives or discs? Discs are really not a good way if your collection is several hundreds of movies. 4k disc movies are 25-80GB in size. But there are some systems were you buy the full movies in 4k disc quality, sometimes even better. So the concept does work. I know not a single person younger than 35 years that buy any discs anymore. Even some in my age 40-50 have stopped. Several big internet sites that used to sell discs have either stopped or gone under. In Sweden there’s not i bright future for physical media. We don’t even get most of the 4k releases. Just the big ones. The bad thing is also that because the market has shrunk so much the small players has took upon them to do some releases. Some of those releases have had lower bitrates and/or atmos removed just so they could save money on the discs. |
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Post by hsamwel on Aug 5, 2022 20:57:06 GMT -5
I think the point being made was that physical media is on it's way out (it's already out) for the significant majority of consumers. There will always be folks who want to use physical media, but you'll just have to go through the old hoops for it - advances in HDMI tech aren't going to cater to you. What advances in HDMI tech are catering to you? Probably future ones. Beyond HDMI 2,1. But I can’t see the physical media going beyond the 2,1 standard anytime soon anyway. So the point is pretty moot. |
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Post by jasonf on Aug 5, 2022 21:08:23 GMT -5
I think the point being made was that physical media is on it's way out (it's already out) for the significant majority of consumers. There will always be folks who want to use physical media, but you'll just have to go through the old hoops for it - advances in HDMI tech aren't going to cater to you. What advances in HDMI tech are catering to you? Basically everything in the HDMI 2.1 spec? 8K 4K at high frame rates eARC ALLM and VRR Dynamic HDR... I'm pretty sure that Keith is right about HDMI just turning into a differently shaped ethernet cable eventually, and there being no real difference between the data pulled off a disc, hard drive, network adapter, etc. I just don't see any manufacturers or standards bodies doing anything specifically to improve the quality of video sync'ing, device compatibility, content protection issues for physical media - but that seems OK to me because it mostly works today if you can deal with the quirks. |
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Post by PaulBe on Aug 5, 2022 21:16:53 GMT -5
What advances in HDMI tech are catering to you? Probably future ones. Beyond HDMI 2,1. But I can’t see the physical media going beyond the 2,1 standard anytime soon anyway. So the point is pretty moot. Since they are probably future ones, we probably don't know what the future holds. I think the death of physical media is greatly exaggerated. I think your point about advances in HDMI being moot is probable. There is no future in the HDMI standard. |
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Post by jasonf on Aug 5, 2022 21:18:39 GMT -5
However the reality is that, while I personally agree with you, for now... (I'd rather have a copy on plastic because it's the only way I can get a copy I'm sure I'll be able to keep.) See I prefer to have a copy in the cloud, so that I can always load up Spaceballs no matter where I am! |
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Post by Stephen Park on Aug 5, 2022 21:35:30 GMT -5
Yesterday I did change wired network to wifi - Atmos dropouts is gone! This is absurd - I see many people complaining same problem with not only Emotiva but other brand as well, it is clearly APPLE who must fix this problem. I don't still understand that why wired network is worse than wifi...? Unfortunately, my internet router does not have QoS feature.... Problem is, our local DTV service app is on ATV and it only allowed to use with Wired network, I don't know why. So I have to consider to buy ASUS or whatever router with QoS feature... There is a hope that tvOS 16 will fix the issue. I saw at least one person report the tvOS 16 beta release fixed it. I am not brave enough to use the beta releases. Since Apple has been silent about this we will not know for sure until the release. Wow, I see my ATV system update show tvOS 16 beta is available, but also afraid to upgrade to beta firmware...! But it is good to hear that someone confirm that this wired network issue is fixed on tvOS 16... oh... humm... Now I set to flow control ON for port which connected to ATV... let's see if only flow control can fix this problem, since my router does not provide QoS function... |
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Post by keithiegee on Aug 5, 2022 22:15:31 GMT -5
Ok team I’ve pulled the trigger and sold my XMC2 for an AVM70. Just wanted to say thanks to all who helped me along the rocky journey that was this processor.
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