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Post by jjkessler on Aug 31, 2022 8:55:45 GMT -5
How much delay is typically added . If I’m at the delay capability edges then, going the HD route makes sense
“As for 2x4 vs 2x4HD, the HD has more range of time delay available if you need it. HD can do 80ms while 2x4 can only do 7.2ms. “
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Post by marcl on Aug 31, 2022 9:01:54 GMT -5
ASR recent review of the flex was very good so that is an option plus there's a balanced version. Hey Marc - would love to spend a day or 2 in your system with a selection of gear and measure it all. Pity you're only 14,000 odd miles away or something like that 🤣🤣🤓👌 Definitely would like to hear a 4 in 8 out unit swapped for those minidsp's and compare the REW results. Plus I'd love to compare those Maggie's of yours with the stats I build. Yes the ASR review of the Flex bordered on "gushing"  A friend of mine just got one to use with a Mini Maggie desk system. The issue right now is that connected to his PC bt USB the sound is warbly and distorted ... trying to troubleshoot. 14,000 miles (I'm in PA)? Yeah that's a stretch. Also, I've had my system apart and reconfigured and shuffled around so many times the past few years ... I'm happy to let it rest right now. But yeah, it's interesting to try things in a methodical way and BOTH listen and measure. And I have ... hundreds of measurements and hundreds of hours listening. Sometimes I had a problem to solve and sometimes I just wanted to see if I could do better. Some experiments measured well and sounded bad ... and vice versa. I expect the Flex would have better performance through an A/D/A cycle with LCR than the 2x4 or 2x4HD. My system is complicated by the "Rooze" setup for the 3.7's and the addition of DWM's for both channels. A 4x8 would allow me to align everything more easily ... but at the possible expense of sound quality going through the A/D/A. I guess we'll just have to use our imagination! |
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Post by marcl on Aug 31, 2022 9:05:52 GMT -5
How much delay is typically added . If I’m at the delay capability edges then, going the HD route makes sense “As for 2x4 vs 2x4HD, the HD has more range of time delay available if you need it. HD can do 80ms while 2x4 can only do 7.2ms. “ In my system I don't need more than 7.2ms due to the way it's configured and symmetry. And it's not literally the difference in distance (~1ms/ft) but also considering latency, etc. Using the REW Alignment tool my subs on the 2x4 are 3.5 and 7.2 with the latter polarity inverted, while my DWM's are 2.5 and 4 on the 2x4HD. |
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Post by webmst007 on Aug 31, 2022 9:43:55 GMT -5
Yes I get you Marc...sometimes I just like to stop playing with the stuff and just enjoy.
But usually I'm back moving things around again within a few days.
I'll be interested to see how your friend gets on with the flex. It would be a straight swap for my Venu360 and I could try a "double Dirac" effort for fun that way. I'm still thinking of other preamp options, but that's all for another day. Have a great break 👌
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Post by yellowbalt on Aug 31, 2022 10:21:33 GMT -5
I was speaking with Emo support team, with Grant and indirectly with Brent over the phone yesterday about my order and I asked about FW 3.0 I was told it is weeks away. That it is almost ready. That they thought they had it ready for release few weeks back but decided to refine it a bit better and now it is very close to being ready. Also, what we have already knew but also confirmed over the phone yesterday, that the DLBC is not going to be part of 3.0. Cheers It's good that there's some status/update but isn't that the case always from day 1 for the delay? "refine it" due to issues or bugs. What if another issues come up? |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 31, 2022 10:38:42 GMT -5
… Am I right that DIRAC live without DLBC has same capabilities of filter creation and manipulation as DLBC module but with limitation of dealing with one sub only? Or is there more limitations for example how low will DIRAC live correct to in compare to DLBC? … If this were true there would be no need for a Single Subwoofer version of DLBC. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Aug 31, 2022 11:00:27 GMT -5
I've seen a bit of confusion about exactly how Dirac Live works on our processors... so I want to clarify some of it.(Some of this is specifically for new users who may find some of the nuances being discussed here confusing.) Dirac Live basically measures and corrects each speaker individually - and this includes your subwoofers. (It does to some degree "consider" symmetry and speaker pairs.) If you have multiple subs connected to the subwoofer outputs on your processor Dirac Live WILL MEASURE AND CORRECT EACH SUB YOU HAVE CONNECTED INDIVIDUALLY.So, as long as each subwoofer is connected to a separate subwoofer output, the version of Dirac Live with our processors WILL measure and calibrate all of them separately. (The Dirac Live that comes with our processors is NOT "limited to handling a single sub".) However, if you PREFER, you can use one sub output on the processor, and connect that to multiple subs through a splitter or a MiniDSP. And, if you do that, the Dirac Life software on our processor will see "one subwoofer" - since you're only using one of our subwoofer outputs. (You can then use the software on your MiniDSP to integrate multiple subs in any way you like... which we will then treat as "a single big sub".) Also, incidentally, the version of Dirac Live that you get with our big processors is the version that covers the full audio range. (Apparently some lower-cost products now come with a limited version of Dirac Live that only works up to 500 Hz.) And, if you're familiar with the previous version, which works with our older XMC-1... The version of Dirac Live you get with our current processors is Dirac Live 3.x - which is the current version. And it is the "Full Version" which allows you to edit and create your own Target Curves and to use third-party microphones if you like. Note that nothing mentioned so far has anything to do with DLBC. DLBC adds some extra capabilities on top of this related to bass management and "integrating subs and multiple subs better"... For which you pay an extra premium. (You might want to read some reviews and forum posts in order to decide if this is something you need or not.) #1 - You would connect to either Center or Left. So Center makes the most sense. Then you have a choice: if you want LFE + BM to go to the subs, set Center Sub=Mono; If you want only LFE to subs and BM to large fronts, set Center Sub=LFE (you will have +3db BM boost in the fronts) #2 - If you don't use miniDSP, then use Left and Right Sub outputs set to Dual Mono. You will have +3db boost in BM. #3 + last question - The best answer is to use Dirac in either case. Dirac will give you better results than PEQ because the filters are more sophisticated and you get phase and impulse response correction. When you use Dirac, the best results will be with miniDSP because you will use it to time-align the two subs so Dirac sees them as one sub and aligns them to the rest of the speakers. No need to do any PEQ in the miniDSP. If for some reason you don't want to use Dirac, then you should use Room EQ Wizard to measure the response of each speaker. REW can output a file that you can import into miniDSP or XMC. There is a procedure to export the specific file for each device. Marc, thank you one more time. Please correct me if I am wrong. So if I would decide to use DIRAC your recommendation is to only time align subs to each other not even to mains? Also not to apply filters at all in MiniDSP (using REW to produce them)? So to provide combine raw sub output to DIRAC (other than time aligning them)? Would not applying filters in MiniDSP not limit Dirac effectiveness as in MiniDSP I apply two filters, one for each sub for better granularity and control over final outcome and I would imagine DIRAC would apply only one filter as it would think there is only 1 sub? Am I right that DIRAC live without DLBC has same capabilities of filter creation and manipulation as DLBC module but with limitation of dealing with one sub only? Or is there more limitations for example how low will DIRAC live correct to in compare to DLBC? Lots of questions but worth asking as there is wealth of knowledgeable users here Cheers
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Post by sebna on Aug 31, 2022 11:02:16 GMT -5
… Am I right that DIRAC live without DLBC has same capabilities of filter creation and manipulation as DLBC module but with limitation of dealing with one sub only? Or is there more limitations for example how low will DIRAC live correct to in compare to DLBC? … If this were true there would be no need for a Single Subwoofer version of DLBC. I did not know there is one. Good to know. That answers my question. So DLBC is a completely different beast with its own set of functions.
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Aug 31, 2022 11:11:24 GMT -5
DLBC is an add-on feature which enables additional features / functions in the Dirac Live software. If you have a device that runs Dirac Live, AND that supports DLBC, then you can purchase a license for DLBC as an optional upgrade. (There are two versions of DLBC, one of which only works with a single sub, and a higher-cost version that supports multiple subs.) We have plans to offer support for DLBC in our road map... But we don't have any details on that yet... If this were true there would be no need for a Single Subwoofer version of DLBC. I did not know there is one. Good to know. That answers my question. So DLBC is a completely different beast with its own set of functions.
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EmoBrent
Emo Staff
Processor and Product Support
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Post by EmoBrent on Aug 31, 2022 11:19:12 GMT -5
If anyone has questions about setting the Levels and how they interact with Dirac before or after creating your filters, take a look at the video below that we recently made about configuring your speaker preset and Dirac. There were some changes to this from how it originally worked with previous Dirac versions, but since there has been some discussion on this, will leave this here. Goes into some detail about Levels and Dirac and how they interact. An important distinction is that Levels adjustments are applied in the analog realm, not the DSP, so the Dirac filters are applied in a completely different portion of the processor than Levels. Levels are covered starting around 3:45 of the video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6k8MLoMug8&t=6s |
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Post by BigE on Aug 31, 2022 14:07:26 GMT -5
I've seen a bit of confusion about exactly how Dirac Live works on our processors... so I want to clarify some of it.(Some of this is specifically for new users who may find some of the nuances being discussed here confusing.) Dirac Live basically measures and corrects each speaker individually - and this includes your subwoofers. (It does to some degree "consider" symmetry and speaker pairs.) If you have multiple subs connected to the subwoofer outputs on your processor Dirac Live WILL MEASURE AND CORRECT EACH SUB YOU HAVE CONNECTED INDIVIDUALLY.So, as long as each subwoofer is connected to a separate subwoofer output, the version of Dirac Live with our processors WILL measure and calibrate all of them separately. (The Dirac Live that comes with our processors is NOT "limited to handling a single sub".) However, if you PREFER, you can use one sub output on the processor, and connect that to multiple subs through a splitter or a MiniDSP. And, if you do that, the Dirac Life software on our processor will see "one subwoofer" - since you're only using one of our subwoofer outputs. (You can then use the software on your MiniDSP to integrate multiple subs in any way you like... which we will then treat as "a single big sub".) Also, incidentally, the version of Dirac Live that you get with our big processors is the version that covers the full audio range. (Apparently some lower-cost products now come with a limited version of Dirac Live that only works up to 500 Hz.) And, if you're familiar with the previous version, which works with our older XMC-1... The version of Dirac Live you get with our current processors is Dirac Live 3.x - which is the current version. And it is the "Full Version" which allows you to edit and create your own Target Curves and to use third-party microphones if you like. Note that nothing mentioned so far has anything to do with DLBC. DLBC adds some extra capabilities on top of this related to bass management and "integrating subs and multiple subs better"... For which you pay an extra premium. (You might want to read some reviews and forum posts in order to decide if this is something you need or not.) Marc, thank you one more time. Please correct me if I am wrong. So if I would decide to use DIRAC your recommendation is to only time align subs to each other not even to mains? Also not to apply filters at all in MiniDSP (using REW to produce them)? So to provide combine raw sub output to DIRAC (other than time aligning them)? Would not applying filters in MiniDSP not limit Dirac effectiveness as in MiniDSP I apply two filters, one for each sub for better granularity and control over final outcome and I would imagine DIRAC would apply only one filter as it would think there is only 1 sub? Am I right that DIRAC live without DLBC has same capabilities of filter creation and manipulation as DLBC module but with limitation of dealing with one sub only? Or is there more limitations for example how low will DIRAC live correct to in compare to DLBC? Lots of questions but worth asking as there is wealth of knowledgeable users here Cheers How would you incorporate a bass shaker which Dirac wouldn't "find" during sweep that I wish to handle LFE or possibly bass? Thought was to use combiner cable (y in reverse) for two bass outputs from xmc2 to my bigger sub so it sees it and then simply swap out cable for separates to large sub & another to bass shaker. |
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,101
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Post by ttocs on Aug 31, 2022 16:34:02 GMT -5
I've seen a bit of confusion about exactly how Dirac Live works on our processors... so I want to clarify some of it.(Some of this is specifically for new users who may find some of the nuances being discussed here confusing.) Dirac Live basically measures and corrects each speaker individually - and this includes your subwoofers. (It does to some degree "consider" symmetry and speaker pairs.) If you have multiple subs connected to the subwoofer outputs on your processor Dirac Live WILL MEASURE AND CORRECT EACH SUB YOU HAVE CONNECTED INDIVIDUALLY.So, as long as each subwoofer is connected to a separate subwoofer output, the version of Dirac Live with our processors WILL measure and calibrate all of them separately. (The Dirac Live that comes with our processors is NOT "limited to handling a single sub".) However, if you PREFER, you can use one sub output on the processor, and connect that to multiple subs through a splitter or a MiniDSP. And, if you do that, the Dirac Life software on our processor will see "one subwoofer" - since you're only using one of our subwoofer outputs. (You can then use the software on your MiniDSP to integrate multiple subs in any way you like... which we will then treat as "a single big sub".) Also, incidentally, the version of Dirac Live that you get with our big processors is the version that covers the full audio range. (Apparently some lower-cost products now come with a limited version of Dirac Live that only works up to 500 Hz.) And, if you're familiar with the previous version, which works with our older XMC-1... The version of Dirac Live you get with our current processors is Dirac Live 3.x - which is the current version. And it is the "Full Version" which allows you to edit and create your own Target Curves and to use third-party microphones if you like. Note that nothing mentioned so far has anything to do with DLBC. DLBC adds some extra capabilities on top of this related to bass management and "integrating subs and multiple subs better"... For which you pay an extra premium. (You might want to read some reviews and forum posts in order to decide if this is something you need or not.) How would you incorporate a bass shaker which Dirac wouldn't "find" during sweep that I wish to handle LFE or possibly bass? Thought was to use combiner cable (y in reverse) for two bass outputs from xmc2 to my bigger sub so it sees it and then simply swap out cable for separates to large sub & another to bass shaker. Simple. Connect the shaker to a sub output, disable that output while running Dirac, enable the output when you want yo use ghe shaker. |
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Post by sebna on Sept 1, 2022 4:21:31 GMT -5
Is there a "Bug Tracking" thread somewhere, which I could review to know what to expect and keep an eye on possible explanations if I would hit any snag? If not, what are the most common ones so I can be prepared?
1. I know about BM bug - which looks like will not be affecting me due to my config.
Thanks
EDIT:
2. Lip Sync bug - manual control of lip sync delay in addition to automatic system does not work correctly - is this still the case? I know it was suggested to use lip sync delay of 100ms or more or less to combat pops and crackles as it was not doing delay at all but in some cases was helping with pops and crackles?
If number 2 is still a thing - how do you find auto lip sync working on its own? I am extremely sensitive to lip sync issues and TBH it scares me a little that I could potentially not be able to dial it out if present? On my current Yamaha CX-A5200 auto lip sync works mostly fine but for some sources I have to add or subtract from it and if point 2 is still true then I would have no tools to do it with XMC-2.
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Post by marcl on Sept 1, 2022 7:24:35 GMT -5
Is there a "Bug Tracking" thread somewhere, which I could review to know what to expect and keep an eye on possible explanations if I would hit any snag? If not, what are the most common ones so I can be prepared?
1. I know about BM bug - which looks like will not be affecting me due to my config.
Thanks
EDIT:
2. Lip Sync bug - manual control of lip sync delay in addition to automatic system does not work correctly - is this still the case? I know it was suggested to use lip sync delay of 100ms or more or less to combat pops and crackles as it was not doing delay at all but in some cases was helping with pops and crackles?
If number 2 is still a thing - how do you find auto lip sync working on its own? I am extremely sensitive to lip sync issues and TBH it scares me a little that I could potentially not be able to dial it out if present? On my current Yamaha CX-A5200 auto lip sync works mostly fine but for some sources I have to add or subtract from it and if point 2 is still true then I would have no tools to do it with XMC-2.
There is neither a comprehensive bug list nor a list of planned content for upcoming releases available to the public. Your best bet is to search the forum for the issues and see if there's a discussion. Release notes will describe major content of the release but not a comprehensive list. |
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doc1963
Emo VIPs 
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Post by doc1963 on Sept 1, 2022 8:13:57 GMT -5
Is there a "Bug Tracking" thread somewhere, which I could review to know what to expect and keep an eye on possible explanations if I would hit any snag? If not, what are the most common ones so I can be prepared? 1. I know about BM bug - which looks like will not be affecting me due to my config.
Thanks EDIT: 2. Lip Sync bug - manual control of lip sync delay in addition to automatic system does not work correctly - is this still the case? I know it was suggested to use lip sync delay of 100ms or more or less to combat pops and crackles as it was not doing delay at all but in some cases was helping with pops and crackles?
If number 2 is still a thing - how do you find auto lip sync working on its own? I am extremely sensitive to lip sync issues and TBH it scares me a little that I could potentially not be able to dial it out if present? On my current Yamaha CX-A5200 auto lip sync works mostly fine but for some sources I have to add or subtract from it and if point 2 is still true then I would have no tools to do it with XMC-2.
"Auto Lip-sync" only works if your display supports it. Since that value is reported via EDID and constantly changes based upon the frame rate of the video content, several manufactures have stopped supporting it. LG, the maker of my display, being one of them. While I cannot speak to your particular scenario (Auto with manual adjustment), I've never encountered an issue dialing in a manual adjustment when one is needed. Unlike some other processors out there (the HTP-1 for example), your XMC-2 will allow you to store a manual lip-sync value " per input" (which remains static and survives a power cycle) or "on the fly" (which resets itself to the input default after a power cycle or an input change). If your display is one that doesn't support "Auto Lip-sync" (like mine), then the "AUTO" selection is not present in the delay settings of the G3P's input setup menu. |
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Post by sebna on Sept 1, 2022 8:34:58 GMT -5
Is there a "Bug Tracking" thread somewhere, which I could review to know what to expect and keep an eye on possible explanations if I would hit any snag? If not, what are the most common ones so I can be prepared?
1. I know about BM bug - which looks like will not be affecting me due to my config.
Thanks
EDIT:
2. Lip Sync bug - manual control of lip sync delay in addition to automatic system does not work correctly - is this still the case? I know it was suggested to use lip sync delay of 100ms or more or less to combat pops and crackles as it was not doing delay at all but in some cases was helping with pops and crackles?
If number 2 is still a thing - how do you find auto lip sync working on its own? I am extremely sensitive to lip sync issues and TBH it scares me a little that I could potentially not be able to dial it out if present? On my current Yamaha CX-A5200 auto lip sync works mostly fine but for some sources I have to add or subtract from it and if point 2 is still true then I would have no tools to do it with XMC-2.
There is neither a comprehensive bug list nor a list of planned content for upcoming releases available to the public. Your best bet is to search the forum for the issues and see if there's a discussion. Release notes will describe major content of the release but not a comprehensive list. Ohh... I think that is a big omission, don't you think?
Being transparent about those things is always better IMHO.
Should we create one - the list of currently known bugs and known workarounds etc.?
Cheers
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Post by sebna on Sept 1, 2022 8:37:20 GMT -5
Is there a "Bug Tracking" thread somewhere, which I could review to know what to expect and keep an eye on possible explanations if I would hit any snag? If not, what are the most common ones so I can be prepared? 1. I know about BM bug - which looks like will not be affecting me due to my config.
Thanks EDIT: 2. Lip Sync bug - manual control of lip sync delay in addition to automatic system does not work correctly - is this still the case? I know it was suggested to use lip sync delay of 100ms or more or less to combat pops and crackles as it was not doing delay at all but in some cases was helping with pops and crackles?
If number 2 is still a thing - how do you find auto lip sync working on its own? I am extremely sensitive to lip sync issues and TBH it scares me a little that I could potentially not be able to dial it out if present? On my current Yamaha CX-A5200 auto lip sync works mostly fine but for some sources I have to add or subtract from it and if point 2 is still true then I would have no tools to do it with XMC-2.
"Auto Lip-sync" only works if your display supports it. Since that value is reported via EDID and constantly changes based upon the frame rate of the video content, several manufactures have stopped supporting it. LG, the maker of my display, being one of them. While I cannot speak to your particular scenario (Auto with manual adjustment), I've never encountered an issue dialing in a manual adjustment when one is needed. Unlike some other processors out there (the HTP-1 for example), your XMC-2 will allow you to store a manual lip-sync value " per input" (which remains static and survives a power cycle) or "on the fly" (which resets itself to the input default after a power cycle or an input change). If your display is one that doesn't support "Auto Lip-sync" (like mine), then the "AUTO" selection is not present in the delay settings of the G3P's input setup menu. Many thanks for letting me know that the lip-sync adjustments do work indeed. I was going by not so old Emo staff announcement about lip-sync not working but it is great to hear it is working just fine as if it would not it could be a deal breaker for me. |
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Post by marcl on Sept 1, 2022 8:44:15 GMT -5
There is neither a comprehensive bug list nor a list of planned content for upcoming releases available to the public. Your best bet is to search the forum for the issues and see if there's a discussion. Release notes will describe major content of the release but not a comprehensive list. Ohh... I think that is a big omission, don't you think?
Being transparent about those things is always better IMHO.
Should we create one - the list of currently known bugs and known workarounds etc.?
Cheers
It has been discussed at length in the forum. Most of us agree, but Emotiva only maintains internal documentation. |
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Lsc
Emo VIPs
Posts: 3,424
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Post by Lsc on Sept 1, 2022 8:49:52 GMT -5
There is neither a comprehensive bug list nor a list of planned content for upcoming releases available to the public. Your best bet is to search the forum for the issues and see if there's a discussion. Release notes will describe major content of the release but not a comprehensive list. Ohh... I think that is a big omission, don't you think?
Being transparent about those things is always better IMHO.
Should we create one - the list of currently known bugs and known workarounds etc.? Cheers
Please…feel free to do so . |
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Post by ElectricKoolAid on Sept 1, 2022 8:54:51 GMT -5
There is neither a comprehensive bug list nor a list of planned content for upcoming releases available to the public. Your best bet is to search the forum for the issues and see if there's a discussion. Release notes will describe major content of the release but not a comprehensive list. Ohh... I think that is a big omission, don't you think?
Being transparent about those things is always better IMHO.
Should we create one - the list of currently known bugs and known workarounds etc.?
Cheers
I posted this a while back, here's what we should expect in the next firmware release according to previous posts: Enhancements/Updates/Bug Fixes that have been confirmed:
Dolby Upmixer with DTS content and vice versa (03/02/22)
- Bass Management bug for single subwoofer setup/Possible additional fixes for multi sub? (12/02/21 and 10/25/21)
- Enhancements for ARC and HDMI (10/25/21)
If anyone else knows of anything definitely let me know. |
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A friend of mine just got one to use with a Mini Maggie desk system. The issue right now is that connected to his PC bt USB the sound is warbly and distorted ... trying to troubleshoot.
