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Post by doc1963 on Sept 1, 2022 8:55:27 GMT -5
Many thanks for letting me know that the lip-sync adjustments do work indeed. I was going by not so old Emo staff announcement about lip-sync not working but it is great to hear it is working just fine as if it would not it could be a deal breaker for me. You're welcome... I must have missed that announcement about lip-sync "not working", but did see Brent's suggestion of setting the value to "100ms" to combat the tics and pops that some owners have encountered. Admittedly, my entire system is sitting in boxes in the basement of my new home (and has been there for almost two months). But my RMC-1L was on the latest public firmware (v2.5) at the time my system was dismantled. Honestly, I only needed manual adjustment on one source device (my ATV4K) and it worked just fine...  |
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Post by doc1963 on Sept 1, 2022 9:03:21 GMT -5
I posted this a while back, here's what we should expect in the next firmware release according to previous posts: Enhancements/Updates/Bug Fixes that have been confirmed:
- Dolby Upmixer with DTS content and vice versa (03/02/22)
- Bass Management bug for single subwoofer setup/Possible additional fixes for multi sub? (12/02/21 and 10/25/21)
- Enhancements for ARC and HDMI (10/25/21)
If anyone else knows of anything definitely let me know. "Cross mixing" will not be part of the next firmware update (the one that will be released "soon"). Look for this in the next "major" release which might also include DSU v3 and DTX: Pro. |
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Post by ElectricKoolAid on Sept 1, 2022 9:13:17 GMT -5
I posted this a while back, here's what we should expect in the next firmware release according to previous posts: Enhancements/Updates/Bug Fixes that have been confirmed:
Dolby Upmixer with DTS content and vice versa (03/02/22)
- Bass Management bug for single subwoofer setup/Possible additional fixes for multi sub? (12/02/21 and 10/25/21)
- Enhancements for ARC and HDMI (10/25/21)
If anyone else knows of anything definitely let me know. "Cross mixing" will not be part of the next firmware update (the one that will be released "soon"). Look for this in the next "major" release which might also include DSU v3 and DTX: Pro. Thanks, I must have missed that, I created that list back in March probably. Not sure when that changed or if I just misread what was said about that update Edit: Also, happy 400th page! |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 1, 2022 9:22:46 GMT -5
Should we create one - the list of currently known bugs and known workarounds etc.? In my opinion, bugs and workarounds should be discussed here, in the owner’s thread. A bug thread would devolve into the same topics and make it harder to find discussion (somewhat like we get into Dirac here). |
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Post by sebna on Sept 1, 2022 10:25:27 GMT -5
"Cross mixing" will not be part of the next firmware update (the one that will be released "soon"). Look for this in the next "major" release which might also include DSU v3 and DTX: Pro. Thanks, I must have missed that, I created that list back in March probably. Not sure when that changed or if I just misread what was said about that update Edit: Also, happy 400th page! Wow, I know those are only "plans" but once and if this Pre would get cross-mixing of up mixers + DTS:X Pro and DSU v3 and DLBC and assuming the SQ is as good as some say and bugs will not be in the way of enjoying it on daily basis it would combine all functions I am looking for in one somehow affordable box!
Please correct me if I am wrong, but currently having 16 channels without DTS:X Pro and DSU v3 is not really that useful as 99% of object audio content is coded for 11 channels and without those upmixers having more than 4 height channels does not really make sense? Is that correct?
I would love to upgrade from 7.2.4 to 7.4.6 or even 7.4.8 but without new wave upmixers it does not make sense as almost nothing would make use of those extra channels.
Also I have started reading XMC manual yesterday where sadly it is written that upmixers may not work on Atmos and DTS:X content? I hope that with Neural X Pro and DSU 3 we would be able to upmix Atmost and DTS:X with them? Does anybody know? I know Trinnov can do it  , not sure about 8805 and HTP-1.
Cheers
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Post by sebna on Sept 1, 2022 10:26:33 GMT -5
Should we create one - the list of currently known bugs and known workarounds etc.? In my opinion, bugs and workarounds should be discussed here, in the owner’s thread. A bug thread would devolve into the same topics and make it harder to find discussion (somewhat like we get into Dirac here). I cannot say that I agree. There is no easy way to sift through 400 pages to find bugs description etc.
With dedicated thread first post can be kept update with links to relevant pages etc.
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Post by sebna on Sept 1, 2022 10:29:24 GMT -5
Many thanks for letting me know that the lip-sync adjustments do work indeed. I was going by not so old Emo staff announcement about lip-sync not working but it is great to hear it is working just fine as if it would not it could be a deal breaker for me. You're welcome... I must have missed that announcement about lip-sync "not working", but did see Brent's suggestion of setting the value to "100ms" to combat the tics and pops that some owners have encountered. Admittedly, my entire system is sitting in boxes in the basement of my new home (and has been there for almost two months). But my RMC-1L was on the latest public firmware (v2.5) at the time my system was dismantled. Honestly, I only needed manual adjustment on one source device (my ATV4K) and it worked just fine... I will not able to find an exact post for you as I read it copied over on a different forum but I believe it was written by Brent and relevant part is below:
If you set different delay values for different HDMI inputs, this fix will not help. For example, if you set one delay to 100 mSec and another input's delay to 99 mSec, you will get poor behavior when you toggle back and forth between these inputs. Any unused or unaffected HDMI inputs may be left at the default of 0 mSec and will not cause any issue if set to 0.
Altering the lip-sync value should not affect the audio-video sync, but it may help alleviate some of these noises. We are still working to track down why the lip-sync is not being applied as a lip-sync and why this setting might affect the pops/ticks. But this is the fix that we have found works in many cases where this noise is present on HDMI sources.
Based on the above I assumed that manual control of lip-sync does not work correctly but I am very happy to hear it did for you.
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Post by marcl on Sept 1, 2022 10:30:01 GMT -5
Thanks, I must have missed that, I created that list back in March probably. Not sure when that changed or if I just misread what was said about that update Edit: Also, happy 400th page! Wow, I know those are only "plans" but once and if this Pre would get cross-mixing of up mixers + DTS:X Pro and DSU v3 and DLBC and assuming the SQ is as good as some say and bugs will not be in the way of enjoying it on daily basis it would combine all functions I am looking for in one somehow affordable box!
Please correct me if I am wrong, but currently having 16 channels without DTS:X Pro and DSU v3 is not really that useful as 99% of object audio content is coded for 11 channels and without those upmixers having more than 4 height channels does not really make sense? Is that correct?
I would love to upgrade from 7.2.4 to 7.4.6 or even 7.4.8 but without new wave upmixers it does not make sense as almost nothing would make use of those extra channels.
Also I have started reading XMC manual yesterday where sadly it is written that upmixers may not work on Atmos and DTS:X content? I hope that with Neural X Pro and DSU 3 we would be able to upmix Atmost and DTS:X with them? Does anybody know? I know Trinnov can do it , not sure about 8805 and HTP-1.
Cheers
Right now Dolby content can be upmixed with the Dolby Surround Upmizer and DTS content can be upmixed with the DTSX upmixer. They can't cross-upmix yet. Also note that neither upmixer works with content that is sampled >48KHz. This is usually not an issue for video but can be an issue for music. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Sept 1, 2022 10:34:59 GMT -5
As far as I know the IDEA was that the TV would return an actual value that might vary depending on the video delay due to processing inside the TV. However, we've never seen a TV that actually returned different values at different times, and most of them today simply return a "0". (And, if the display does not impose a significant delay due to slow video processing, then that's just fine.) Also note that "auto lip-synch" ONLY means that we will accept and use a value provided to us by the TV. Neither our processors, nor anyone else's, actually look at the content and "figure out the correct lip synch setting based on the content". (Also note that this means that auto-lip-synch will NOT correct for sync errors in the video stream itself - caused by the client - or on something like Youtube videos.) Is there a "Bug Tracking" thread somewhere, which I could review to know what to expect and keep an eye on possible explanations if I would hit any snag? If not, what are the most common ones so I can be prepared? 1. I know about BM bug - which looks like will not be affecting me due to my config.
Thanks EDIT: 2. Lip Sync bug - manual control of lip sync delay in addition to automatic system does not work correctly - is this still the case? I know it was suggested to use lip sync delay of 100ms or more or less to combat pops and crackles as it was not doing delay at all but in some cases was helping with pops and crackles?
If number 2 is still a thing - how do you find auto lip sync working on its own? I am extremely sensitive to lip sync issues and TBH it scares me a little that I could potentially not be able to dial it out if present? On my current Yamaha CX-A5200 auto lip sync works mostly fine but for some sources I have to add or subtract from it and if point 2 is still true then I would have no tools to do it with XMC-2.
"Auto Lip-sync" only works if your display supports it. Since that value is reported via EDID and constantly changes based upon the frame rate of the video content, several manufactures have stopped supporting it. LG, the maker of my display, being one of them. While I cannot speak to your particular scenario (Auto with manual adjustment), I've never encountered an issue dialing in a manual adjustment when one is needed. Unlike some other processors out there (the HTP-1 for example), your XMC-2 will allow you to store a manual lip-sync value " per input" (which remains static and survives a power cycle) or "on the fly" (which resets itself to the input default after a power cycle or an input change). If your display is one that doesn't support "Auto Lip-sync" (like mine), then the "AUTO" selection is not present in the delay settings of the G3P's input setup menu. |
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Post by sebna on Sept 1, 2022 10:35:49 GMT -5
Wow, I know those are only "plans" but once and if this Pre would get cross-mixing of up mixers + DTS:X Pro and DSU v3 and DLBC and assuming the SQ is as good as some say and bugs will not be in the way of enjoying it on daily basis it would combine all functions I am looking for in one somehow affordable box!
Please correct me if I am wrong, but currently having 16 channels without DTS:X Pro and DSU v3 is not really that useful as 99% of object audio content is coded for 11 channels and without those upmixers having more than 4 height channels does not really make sense? Is that correct?
I would love to upgrade from 7.2.4 to 7.4.6 or even 7.4.8 but without new wave upmixers it does not make sense as almost nothing would make use of those extra channels.
Also I have started reading XMC manual yesterday where sadly it is written that upmixers may not work on Atmos and DTS:X content? I hope that with Neural X Pro and DSU 3 we would be able to upmix Atmost and DTS:X with them? Does anybody know? I know Trinnov can do it , not sure about 8805 and HTP-1.
Cheers
Right now Dolby content can be upmixed with the Dolby Surround Upmizer and DTS content can be upmixed with the DTSX upmixer. They can't cross-upmix yet. Also note that neither upmixer works with content that is sampled >48KHz. This is usually not an issue for video but can be an issue for music. Good to know about 48khz limitation. Is this HW limitation of XMC-2 or algorithms of up mixers?
My Yamaha CX-A5200 is one of the few that can manipulate all audio streams without any down sampling (for movies - no problem with 192khz, although I am not sure if it applies also to up-mixers or only its internal DSP)
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Post by sebna on Sept 1, 2022 10:37:38 GMT -5
As far as I know the IDEA was that the TV would return an actual value that might vary depending on the video delay due to processing inside the TV. However, we've never seen a TV that actually returned different values at different times, and most of them today simply return a "0". (And, if the display does not impose a significant delay due to slow video processing, then that's just fine.) Also note that "auto lip-synch" ONLY means that we will accept and use a value provided to us by the TV. Neither our processors, nor anyone else's, actually look at the content and "figure out the correct lip synch setting based on the content". (Also note that this means that auto-lip-synch will NOT correct for sync errors in the video stream itself - caused by the client - or on something like Youtube videos.) "Auto Lip-sync" only works if your display supports it. Since that value is reported via EDID and constantly changes based upon the frame rate of the video content, several manufactures have stopped supporting it. LG, the maker of my display, being one of them. While I cannot speak to your particular scenario (Auto with manual adjustment), I've never encountered an issue dialing in a manual adjustment when one is needed. Unlike some other processors out there (the HTP-1 for example), your XMC-2 will allow you to store a manual lip-sync value " per input" (which remains static and survives a power cycle) or "on the fly" (which resets itself to the input default after a power cycle or an input change). If your display is one that doesn't support "Auto Lip-sync" (like mine), then the "AUTO" selection is not present in the delay settings of the G3P's input setup menu. Keith while you are here - so is manual lip-sync adjustment working as expected or are there some problems with it as per Brent post I have partially posted?
EDIT: Also it seems that my JVC-X7900 is reporting a value as my Yamaha with auto-lipsync enabled is reporting automatically 176ms delay which is spot on for 90% of the content. Netflix app through UB820 requires manual adjustment - even tough BDs through the same player are fine with what was reported by JVC).
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Sept 1, 2022 11:16:04 GMT -5
OK.... the bottom line is that we're seeing some issues with manual lip synch not working on some combinations of firmware and hardware revisions. This is something we're looking into - and it will be ironed out in the future. However, at the moment, I don't have too many specific details about exactly what combinations of hardware and firmware it does and does not work with. I'll also backtrack a tiny bit on something I just said... According to our engineers they actually did see "auto lip-sync" deliver different values under different situations on some TVs in the past... (Apparently, back in the dark ages, some TVs actually had enough delay in their video processing that it could be predicted or measured and was worth correcting.) However, with most modern days TVs, it's almost always a fixed value, and usually 0. (But "auto" should be using the value we're receiving, even if that value is often 0, when it is enabled.) Unfortunately, these days, there is a possibility that a streaming box will introduce delays or sync errors when converting the stream back into normal video... And, when you play a downloaded video using VLC, or watch something on Youtube, you will often see various errors... or even missing audio or video frames... And these can cause sync errors that really cannot be fixed properly after the fact. As far as I know the IDEA was that the TV would return an actual value that might vary depending on the video delay due to processing inside the TV. However, we've never seen a TV that actually returned different values at different times, and most of them today simply return a "0". (And, if the display does not impose a significant delay due to slow video processing, then that's just fine.) Also note that "auto lip-synch" ONLY means that we will accept and use a value provided to us by the TV. Neither our processors, nor anyone else's, actually look at the content and "figure out the correct lip synch setting based on the content". (Also note that this means that auto-lip-synch will NOT correct for sync errors in the video stream itself - caused by the client - or on something like Youtube videos.) Keith while you are here - so is manual lip-sync adjustment working as expected or are there some problems with it as per Brent post I have partially posted?
EDIT: Also it seems that my JVC-X7900 is reporting a value as my Yamaha with auto-lipsync enabled is reporting automatically 176ms delay which is spot on for 90% of the content. Netflix app through UB820 requires manual adjustment - even tough BDs through the same player are fine with what was reported by JVC).
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 1, 2022 13:34:28 GMT -5
I would be remiss if I didn't remind everyone of something here... When you use something like a MiniDSP... You are taking an analog audio signal and converting it back into digital (at the input of the MiniDSP)... Then you are applying additional digital processing to that signal... And you are then converting it back into analog again (at the output of the MiniDSP)... So you are adding two more digital<->analog conversions to the audio signal chain... And you are also adding some additional analog circuitry... and interconnects... and connectors... at the inputs and outputs. And you also need to be sure to match your levels going in and out to avoid raising the noise floor or overloading anything... So you need to be sure that all of that extra complexity really will result in a significant overall improvement. So based on that info - which sounds about right I'm considering: live with bass/sub integration as is using a Venu360 ( or other PA DSP I have already ) for sub only integration. Get a basic minidsp and use either REW or REW+ MSO. Ignore main to sub bass integration and just run subs as a single into Dirac. Get a minidsp flex and still run subs seperated from the other speakers but add a seperate Dirac calibration to the subs in the Flex. Then let the RMC1 "see" those as 1 sub and run Dirac in the RMC1 as usual. Get a minidsp ddrc88A and run mains (large) plus bass + LFE into that. So include sub cross over to the mains for low information from the "Large" setting, sub DLBC. Run Dirac on that lot in the ddrc88a. Then let RMC1 run Dirac on the finalised large mains plus a single sub. What would be interesting is seeing how the phase relationships were handled by Dirac and the before and after REW results in that setup. I'm assuming 3 will pretty much fix the HDMI switching issues as much as is possible. My solution for that was going to be a HDfury VVRoom 8k and switch through that to projector and TV whilst sending audio only to the RMC1. Not that my Epson projector takes 8k but it would allow me to try the LLdv HDR hack that's being played with currently for non-Dolby Vision projectors. |
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Post by marcl on Sept 1, 2022 14:09:32 GMT -5
I would be remiss if I didn't remind everyone of something here... When you use something like a MiniDSP... You are taking an analog audio signal and converting it back into digital (at the input of the MiniDSP)... Then you are applying additional digital processing to that signal... And you are then converting it back into analog again (at the output of the MiniDSP)... So you are adding two more digital<->analog conversions to the audio signal chain... And you are also adding some additional analog circuitry... and interconnects... and connectors... at the inputs and outputs. And you also need to be sure to match your levels going in and out to avoid raising the noise floor or overloading anything... So you need to be sure that all of that extra complexity really will result in a significant overall improvement. So based on that info - which sounds about right I'm considering: live with bass/sub integration as is using a Venu360 ( or other PA DSP I have already ) for sub only integration. Get a basic minidsp and use either REW or REW+ MSO. Ignore main to sub bass integration and just run subs as a single into Dirac. Get a minidsp flex and still run subs seperated from the other speakers but add a seperate Dirac calibration to the subs in the Flex. Then let the RMC1 "see" those as 1 sub and run Dirac in the RMC1 as usual. Get a minidsp ddrc88A and run mains (large) plus bass + LFE into that. So include sub cross over to the mains for low information from the "Large" setting, sub DLBC. Run Dirac on that lot in the ddrc88a. Then let RMC1 run Dirac on the finalised large mains plus a single sub. What would be interesting is seeing how the phase relationships were handled by Dirac and the before and after REW results in that setup. I'm assuming 3 will pretty much fix the HDMI switching issues as much as is possible. My solution for that was going to be a HDfury VVRoom 8k and switch through that to projector and TV whilst sending audio only to the RMC1. Not that my Epson projector takes 8k but it would allow me to try the LLdv HDR hack that's being played with currently for non-Dolby Vision projectors. And this is why I only use the miniDSP for the bass/sub audio and not the full range audio from LCR or other channels. Although, I really could do some interesting things with my particular system if I did that. But those extra A/D/A cycles - even with a miniDSP Flex which seems to have better performance - just sound wrong in front of the G3P's excellent DAC implementation. |
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Post by PaulBe on Sept 1, 2022 14:13:03 GMT -5
I’ve made some changes to my room layout and speaker configuration and am looking for advice. I was using 6 height channels but have backed off to 4 height channels. 6 height channels is adding more confusion than cure for me.
I have in-wall front and back height channels and in-ceiling center top channels. The front in-wall height channels are too low; Angle of elevation is only about 11 degrees. The center tops are slightly forward of MLP at 60 degrees of elevation. Rear in-wall heights are at 22 degrees of elevation. The rear heights will soon be on-wall wedges, near the ceiling, at a 34 degree angle of elevation. 34 degrees is the best I can do without cutting new holes in the ceiling.
In the size menu, my rear heights are designated as small rear heights. Should the center tops be designated as small front height, small front top, or small middle top, when using these slightly forward center tops as the front height channels in a .4 setup?
Thanks.
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Post by PaulBe on Sept 1, 2022 14:27:17 GMT -5
I would be remiss if I didn't remind everyone of something here... When you use something like a MiniDSP... You are taking an analog audio signal and converting it back into digital (at the input of the MiniDSP)... Then you are applying additional digital processing to that signal... And you are then converting it back into analog again (at the output of the MiniDSP)... So you are adding two more digital<->analog conversions to the audio signal chain... And you are also adding some additional analog circuitry... and interconnects... and connectors... at the inputs and outputs. And you also need to be sure to match your levels going in and out to avoid raising the noise floor or overloading anything... So you need to be sure that all of that extra complexity really will result in a significant overall improvement. So based on that info - which sounds about right I'm considering: live with bass/sub integration as is using a Venu360 ( or other PA DSP I have already ) for sub only integration. Get a basic minidsp and use either REW or REW+ MSO. Ignore main to sub bass integration and just run subs as a single into Dirac. Get a minidsp flex and still run subs seperated from the other speakers but add a seperate Dirac calibration to the subs in the Flex. Then let the RMC1 "see" those as 1 sub and run Dirac in the RMC1 as usual. Get a minidsp ddrc88A and run mains (large) plus bass + LFE into that. So include sub cross over to the mains for low information from the "Large" setting, sub DLBC. Run Dirac on that lot in the ddrc88a. Then let RMC1 run Dirac on the finalised large mains plus a single sub. What would be interesting is seeing how the phase relationships were handled by Dirac and the before and after REW results in that setup. I'm assuming 3 will pretty much fix the HDMI switching issues as much as is possible. My solution for that was going to be a HDfury VVRoom 8k and switch through that to projector and TV whilst sending audio only to the RMC1. Not that my Epson projector takes 8k but it would allow me to try the LLdv HDR hack that's being played with currently for non-Dolby Vision projectors. Looks like a good reason to have digital outs on the next incarnation of the RMC. Put optional analog outs on expansion cards... All the I/O conversion costs money too. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 1, 2022 14:30:25 GMT -5
I would be remiss if I didn't remind everyone of something here... When you use something like a MiniDSP... You are taking an analog audio signal and converting it back into digital (at the input of the MiniDSP)... Then you are applying additional digital processing to that signal... And you are then converting it back into analog again (at the output of the MiniDSP)... So you are adding two more digital<->analog conversions to the audio signal chain... And you are also adding some additional analog circuitry... and interconnects... and connectors... at the inputs and outputs. And you also need to be sure to match your levels going in and out to avoid raising the noise floor or overloading anything... So you need to be sure that all of that extra complexity really will result in a significant overall improvement. This is why we’d prefer to use DLBC 🙂😉 |
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Post by ElectricKoolAid on Sept 1, 2022 14:39:49 GMT -5
I would be remiss if I didn't remind everyone of something here... When you use something like a MiniDSP... You are taking an analog audio signal and converting it back into digital (at the input of the MiniDSP)... Then you are applying additional digital processing to that signal... And you are then converting it back into analog again (at the output of the MiniDSP)... So you are adding two more digital<->analog conversions to the audio signal chain... And you are also adding some additional analog circuitry... and interconnects... and connectors... at the inputs and outputs. And you also need to be sure to match your levels going in and out to avoid raising the noise floor or overloading anything... So you need to be sure that all of that extra complexity really will result in a significant overall improvement. This is why we’d prefer to use DLBC 🙂😉 Bingo...with the caveat that I will still have to have the MiniDSP in the chain if I want to use BEQ...unless Emotiva want's to do what the HTP-1 did and allow a web interface which allows you to do it all in the processor. |
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NicS
Sensei
Will the G4 upgrade help quell my RMC1-L frustrations...?
Posts: 238
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Post by NicS on Sept 1, 2022 17:02:17 GMT -5
Another week passes. Another month passes.
Will the elusive v3.0 firmware update manifest next week? Or is October more likely?
Is there a betting pool on this yet?
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Post by aswiss on Sept 1, 2022 19:14:34 GMT -5
I posted this a while back, here's what we should expect in the next firmware release according to previous posts: Enhancements/Updates/Bug Fixes that have been confirmed:
- Dolby Upmixer with DTS content and vice versa (03/02/22)
- Bass Management bug for single subwoofer setup/Possible additional fixes for multi sub? (12/02/21 and 10/25/21)
- Enhancements for ARC and HDMI (10/25/21)
If anyone else knows of anything definitely let me know. "Cross mixing" will not be part of the next firmware update (the one that will be released "soon"). Look for this in the next "major" release which might also include DSU v3 and DTX: Pro. Sorry to say - but I don't believe in "soon" when it comes to Emo Talking. it's all guessing - I prefer knowing - and from my POV Emotiva even does not know. so better say nothing.
The last major release is more than 2 years back. the last really FW update 2.3 released more than 13 months back.
For me so far nothing is really confirmed - and I'm monthly checking back here since 1 year to find out that again nothing happened. As much as I like my RMC-1... you know... 
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, not sure about 8805 and HTP-1.
