stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Oct 5, 2020 10:36:21 GMT -5
The "new" XPR line should have the conventional power supply of the XPA-1, Generation 2. I did hear the difference between the XPA series and the XPR series, which is why I sold my XPR-2. The Class H power supply stole dynamics from the sound - the extra smoothness robbed the sound of live music from the XPR line. The XPA series (at the time, Generation 2) sounded livelier. So give me an XPA-1 (Gen. 2) power supply made with XPR quality parts, include a 10, 15, or 20-year warranty, and it'll sell. As audiobill says, there ARE many powerful, high-quality, American-made alternatives, but of the Emotiva products made, the XPA-1 series 2 was the high-water mark for sound quality. None of the Generation 3 products have equalled it (regardless of what Stereophile, or anyone else says). If Emotiva wants to maintain their place in "highest quality stereo reproduction," then they have no alternative than but to supplement the current XPA line (with Class H power supplies) with something better. So the question is very simple: Has Emotiva lost their soul to Home Theater, or will they fight to preserve a place in high-end stereo? I fear that I already know the answer. Boomzilla The XPR line had the same power supply (toroidal transformer; which is why it was as heavy as it was) as the XPA series (Gen 1 or 2). Emotiva made their bones on Class H prior to the XPA series in 2009. The current XPA series (Gen 3) use a SMPS. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 5, 2020 10:42:44 GMT -5
The XPR line had the same power supply (toroidal transformer; which is why it was as heavy as it was) as the XPA series (Gen 1 or 2). Emotiva made their bones on Class H prior to the XPA series in 2009. The current XPA series (Gen 3) use a SMPS. And regardless of that, neither the XPR nor the XPA Gen. 3 products sound as good. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 5, 2020 11:55:53 GMT -5
Just for the record... SMPS and Class H have nothing specifically to do with each other. You can have either a linear or SMPS power supply with either a Class A/B or Class H topology...
A linear power supply is one with a 60 Hz power transformer that runs directly off the line... By their nature SMPS type power supplies are regulated. Linear power supplies can be regulated, and the smaller ones found in devices like DACs and preamps almost always are... However, a regulated linear power supply big enough to run a power amp would be PROHIBITIVELY large, heavy, and expensive. The term "toroidal" refers to the shape of the core used in the transformer (a donut shape)... and there are several other types. The toroidal type has become popular because it has several benefits in audio applications...
Those benefits include a low output impedance, low magnetic flux leakage, and a convenient low-profile shape.
Our XPR amps used linear power supplies and a Class H topology (Class H is a specific variation of Class A/B)... The Gen1 and Gen2 XPA amps used linear power supplies and an ordinary Class A/B topology... The XPA Gen3 amps use a fully regulated SMPS and a Class H topology...
And, yes, each design does sound a tiny bit different... Although we find the differences in sonic signature, other than those due to the obvious differences in power, to be quite subtle...
And, also, just for the record... Along with the other benefits of SMPS and Class H topology... We do actually think that the new XPA Gen3 amps sound a tiny bit better than the previous generations... Although we do agree that the XPA-1, which was also fully balanced and fully differential, was quite nice. The current equivalent of that is the XPA-DR1, which we also think sounds quite nice.
(Although, obviously, we are all entitled to our opinions.)
The "new" XPR line should have the conventional power supply of the XPA-1, Generation 2. I did hear the difference between the XPA series and the XPR series, which is why I sold my XPR-2. The Class H power supply stole dynamics from the sound - the extra smoothness robbed the sound of live music from the XPR line. The XPA series (at the time, Generation 2) sounded livelier. So give me an XPA-1 (Gen. 2) power supply made with XPR quality parts, include a 10, 15, or 20-year warranty, and it'll sell. As audiobill says, there ARE many powerful, high-quality, American-made alternatives, but of the Emotiva products made, the XPA-1 series 2 was the high-water mark for sound quality. None of the Generation 3 products have equalled it (regardless of what Stereophile, or anyone else says). Class-H power supplies (as implemented currently by Emotiva) are not competitive with "conventional" power supplies in terms of audio sound quality - Period. If Emotiva wants to maintain their place in "highest quality stereo reproduction," then they have no alternative than but to supplement the current XPA line with something better-sounding. So the question is very simple: Has Emotiva lost their soul to Home Theater, or will they fight to preserve their former place in high-end stereo? I fear that I already know the answer. Boomzilla PS: I don't consider Class H power supply technology inherently inferior, but as currently implemented by Emotiva, I do consider the overall sound quality of current Generation 3 products (and previous XPR products) to be lacking. Further, I don't consider switching power supply technology with Class-D outputs (as implemented in the Emotiva PA-1 amplifiers) inferior to "conventional" technology. But Emotiva has not yet developed a XPA-series state-of-the-art switching-power-supply amplifier that has world-class sound either. We can all speculate on why... My best guess is that Emotiva's technical abilities have all been focused on Home Theater products and that stereo development has fallen by the wayside. And as always, I could be wrong. But the "why" (whatever it may be) does not alleviate the fact that Emotiva's Generation 3 XPA products are a step down in sound quality from their Generation 2 products. Emotiva can and should do better. |
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Post by novisnick on Oct 5, 2020 12:11:01 GMT -5
Just for the record... SMPS and Class H have nothing specifically to do with each other. You can have either a linear or SMPS power supply with either a Class A/B or Class H topology...
A linear power supply is one with a 60 Hz power transformer that runs directly off the line... By their nature SMPS type power supplies are regulated. Linear power supplies can be regulated, and the smaller ones found in devices like DACs and preamps almost always are... However, a regulated linear power supply big enough to run a power amp would be PROHIBITIVELY large, heavy, and expensive. The term "toroidal" refers to the shape of the core used in the transformer (a donut shape)... and there are several other types. The toroidal type has become popular because it has several benefits in audio applications...
Those benefits include a low output impedance, low magnetic flux leakage, and a convenient low-profile shape.
Our XPR amps used linear power supplies and a Class H topology (Class H is a specific variation of Class A/B)... The Gen1 and Gen2 XPA amps used linear power supplies and an ordinary Class A/B topology... The XPA Gen3 amps use a fully regulated SMPS and a Class H topology...
And, yes, each design does sound a tiny bit different... Although we find the differences in sonic signature, other than those due to the obvious differences in power, to be quite subtle...
And, also, just for the record... Along with the other benefits of SMPS and Class H topology... We do actually think that the new XPA Gen3 amps sound a tiny bit better than the previous generations... Although we do agree that the XPA-1, which was also fully balanced and fully differential, was quite nice. The current equivalent of that is the XPA-DR1, which we also think sounds quite nice.
(Although, obviously, we are all entitled to our opinions.)
The "new" XPR line should have the conventional power supply of the XPA-1, Generation 2. I did hear the difference between the XPA series and the XPR series, which is why I sold my XPR-2. The Class H power supply stole dynamics from the sound - the extra smoothness robbed the sound of live music from the XPR line. The XPA series (at the time, Generation 2) sounded livelier. So give me an XPA-1 (Gen. 2) power supply made with XPR quality parts, include a 10, 15, or 20-year warranty, and it'll sell. As audiobill says, there ARE many powerful, high-quality, American-made alternatives, but of the Emotiva products made, the XPA-1 series 2 was the high-water mark for sound quality. None of the Generation 3 products have equalled it (regardless of what Stereophile, or anyone else says). Class-H power supplies (as implemented currently by Emotiva) are not competitive with "conventional" power supplies in terms of audio sound quality - Period. If Emotiva wants to maintain their place in "highest quality stereo reproduction," then they have no alternative than but to supplement the current XPA line with something better-sounding. So the question is very simple: Has Emotiva lost their soul to Home Theater, or will they fight to preserve their former place in high-end stereo? I fear that I already know the answer. Boomzilla PS: I don't consider Class H power supply technology inherently inferior, but as currently implemented by Emotiva, I do consider the overall sound quality of current Generation 3 products (and previous XPR products) to be lacking. Further, I don't consider switching power supply technology with Class-D outputs (as implemented in the Emotiva PA-1 amplifiers) inferior to "conventional" technology. But Emotiva has not yet developed a XPA-series state-of-the-art switching-power-supply amplifier that has world-class sound either. We can all speculate on why... My best guess is that Emotiva's technical abilities have all been focused on Home Theater products and that stereo development has fallen by the wayside. And as always, I could be wrong. But the "why" (whatever it may be) does not alleviate the fact that Emotiva's Generation 3 XPA products are a step down in sound quality from their Generation 2 products. Emotiva can and should do better. Thanks so much for your post @keithl |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 5, 2020 12:33:49 GMT -5
Yes - XPA Generations one, two, and three (and XPR) differences in sound quality ARE subtle. And those subtleties are a matter of personal preference. Regardless of measurements, I have (consistently) found that my preference is for Generation 1 or 2 Emotiva power amplifier sound. I say this having actually owned and lived with one or more (original purchase) models of each generation XPA amplifier, including an XPR-2. My auditory preference has (consistently) been for unregulated, heavy-duty linear power supplies. I find that (other things being equal), the linear-supply Emotiva amplifiers have sounded more dynamic (particularly at low volume levels) than any others.
If I were alone in this preference, I'd be just an outlier - and the rest of the world could roll on by. But it seems that I'm not alone in these observations, it would seem that a fairly large contingent of former and current Emotiva customers tend to agree.
However, I must say that I find the Emotiva PA-1 amplifier the sonic equivalent of any Generation XPA (or XPR) amplifier that I've heard. That means that other technologies CAN be used to provide equivalent sound quality.
So which technologies are essential to good sound, and which aren't? Obviously, I don't know. But I do know what I hear. Despite good sales and the "Stereophile recommended component" designation, the Generation 3 XPA series just doesn't sound great to me. Good? Yes. Great - Definitely not.
So I await the XPA generation 4 amplifiers in hopes that I can return to the approbation of Big Dan, KeithL, and the Emotiva lounge. But until then, I'm glorying in the sound of my PA-1 amplifiers.
Cordially - Boomzilla
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Post by tropicallutefisk on Oct 5, 2020 12:44:17 GMT -5
I've never heard the XPR series, but I have no complaints with the DR1s driving my Magnepans. They were quite a positive change in my system and easily bested the previous two amplifiers I had been utilizing. The only other Emotiva amp I can compare against is the XPA-1L v.2. I loved that 1L and its the reason I purchased three other amps from Emotiva. It was purchased on a whim for my center channel and was pleasantly surprised by how great it sounded. I did replace the 1L with a DR1 and while the difference was not extraordinary, there was a difference. I'd say the DR1 is more refined/clearer and has a bit more bass punch. Otherwise the sound was very similar.
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Oct 5, 2020 15:39:23 GMT -5
The XPR line had the same power supply (toroidal transformer; which is why it was as heavy as it was) as the XPA series (Gen 1 or 2). Emotiva made their bones on Class H prior to the XPA series in 2009. The current XPA series (Gen 3) use a SMPS. And regardless of that, neither the XPR nor the XPA Gen. 3 products sound as good. All good. Just correcting your terminology. |
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Post by JKCashin on Oct 5, 2020 21:55:46 GMT -5
Yes - XPA Generations one, two, and three (and XPR) differences in sound quality ARE subtle. And those subtleties are a matter of personal preference. Regardless of measurements, I have (consistently) found that my preference is for Generation 1 or 2 Emotiva power amplifier sound. I say this having actually owned and lived with one or more (original purchase) models of each generation XPA amplifier, including an XPR-2. My auditory preference has (consistently) been for unregulated, heavy-duty linear power supplies. I find that (other things being equal), the linear-supply Emotiva amplifiers have sounded more dynamic (particularly at low volume levels) than any others. If I were alone in this preference, I'd be just an outlier - and the rest of the world could roll on by. But it seems that I'm not alone in these observations, it would seem that a fairly large contingent of former and current Emotiva customers tend to agree. However, I must say that I find the Emotiva PA-1 amplifier the sonic equivalent of any Generation XPA (or XPR) amplifier that I've heard. That means that other technologies CAN be used to provide equivalent sound quality. So which technologies are essential to good sound, and which aren't? Obviously, I don't know. But I do know what I hear. Despite good sales and the "Stereophile recommended component" designation, the Generation 3 XPA series just doesn't sound great to me. Good? Yes. Great - Definitely not. So I await the XPA generation 4 amplifiers in hopes that I can return to the approbation of Big Dan, KeithL, and the Emotiva lounge. But until then, I'm glorying in the sound of my PA-1 amplifiers. Cordially - Boomzilla WHat's your opinion on the XPA-1Ls? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 6, 2020 5:44:15 GMT -5
WHat's your opinion on the XPA-1Ls? Not personally fond of them, but I'm definitely in the minority with that opinion. |
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Post by rbk123 on Oct 6, 2020 11:25:09 GMT -5
Yes - XPA Generations one, two, and three (and XPR) differences in sound quality ARE subtle. And those subtleties are a matter of personal preference. Regardless of measurements, I have (consistently) found that my preference is for Generation 1 or 2 Emotiva power amplifier sound. I say this having actually owned and lived with one or more (original purchase) models of each generation XPA amplifier, including an XPR-2. My auditory preference has (consistently) been for unregulated, heavy-duty linear power supplies. I find that (other things being equal), the linear-supply Emotiva amplifiers have sounded more dynamic (particularly at low volume levels) than any others. However, I must say that I find the Emotiva PA-1 amplifier the sonic equivalent of any Generation XPA (or XPR) amplifier that I've heard. That means that other technologies CAN be used to provide equivalent sound quality. Doesn't the PA-1 have an SMPS? Just think how good it would have sounded with a torroid...  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 6, 2020 11:41:38 GMT -5
Doesn't the PA-1 have an SMPS? Just think how good it would have sounded with a torroid... It does. And you completely missed my point, rbk123. Different technologies CAN result in excellent performance. But the SAME technologies can also result in mediocre performance. And I don't personally CARE about the means, only the results (as should we all). |
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Post by rbk123 on Oct 6, 2020 11:49:11 GMT -5
No, I got your point, it's why I threw in the 2nd line.
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Post by leonski on Oct 6, 2020 17:18:24 GMT -5
Boom,
Prebuying that warranty will cost a fortune. Even over a span of 10 years? Shipping and technician wages may double or perhaps more.
ALL that and and more must be figured into original purchase price should you decide on a 10 year warranty. Make that 20 years? OUCH!
Look at the cost of Bryston, a very ordinary amp with a huge reliable reputation....and the warranty to match to orignal owners....
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Post by leonski on Oct 6, 2020 17:19:32 GMT -5
Just for the record... SMPS and Class H have nothing specifically to do with each other. You can have either a linear or SMPS power supply with either a Class A/B or Class H topology...
A linear power supply is one with a 60 Hz power transformer that runs directly off the line... By their nature SMPS type power supplies are regulated. Linear power supplies can be regulated, and the smaller ones found in devices like DACs and preamps almost always are... However, a regulated linear power supply big enough to run a power amp would be PROHIBITIVELY large, heavy, and expensive. The term "toroidal" refers to the shape of the core used in the transformer (a donut shape)... and there are several other types. The toroidal type has become popular because it has several benefits in audio applications...
Those benefits include a low output impedance, low magnetic flux leakage, and a convenient low-profile shape.
Our XPR amps used linear power supplies and a Class H topology (Class H is a specific variation of Class A/B)... The Gen1 and Gen2 XPA amps used linear power supplies and an ordinary Class A/B topology... The XPA Gen3 amps use a fully regulated SMPS and a Class H topology...
And, yes, each design does sound a tiny bit different... Although we find the differences in sonic signature, other than those due to the obvious differences in power, to be quite subtle...
And, also, just for the record... Along with the other benefits of SMPS and Class H topology... We do actually think that the new XPA Gen3 amps sound a tiny bit better than the previous generations... Although we do agree that the XPA-1, which was also fully balanced and fully differential, was quite nice. The current equivalent of that is the XPA-DR1, which we also think sounds quite nice.
(Although, obviously, we are all entitled to our opinions.)
The "new" XPR line should have the conventional power supply of the XPA-1, Generation 2. I did hear the difference between the XPA series and the XPR series, which is why I sold my XPR-2. The Class H power supply stole dynamics from the sound - the extra smoothness robbed the sound of live music from the XPR line. The XPA series (at the time, Generation 2) sounded livelier. So give me an XPA-1 (Gen. 2) power supply made with XPR quality parts, include a 10, 15, or 20-year warranty, and it'll sell. As audiobill says, there ARE many powerful, high-quality, American-made alternatives, but of the Emotiva products made, the XPA-1 series 2 was the high-water mark for sound quality. None of the Generation 3 products have equalled it (regardless of what Stereophile, or anyone else says). Class-H power supplies (as implemented currently by Emotiva) are not competitive with "conventional" power supplies in terms of audio sound quality - Period. If Emotiva wants to maintain their place in "highest quality stereo reproduction," then they have no alternative than but to supplement the current XPA line with something better-sounding. So the question is very simple: Has Emotiva lost their soul to Home Theater, or will they fight to preserve their former place in high-end stereo? I fear that I already know the answer. Boomzilla PS: I don't consider Class H power supply technology inherently inferior, but as currently implemented by Emotiva, I do consider the overall sound quality of current Generation 3 products (and previous XPR products) to be lacking. Further, I don't consider switching power supply technology with Class-D outputs (as implemented in the Emotiva PA-1 amplifiers) inferior to "conventional" technology. But Emotiva has not yet developed a XPA-series state-of-the-art switching-power-supply amplifier that has world-class sound either. We can all speculate on why... My best guess is that Emotiva's technical abilities have all been focused on Home Theater products and that stereo development has fallen by the wayside. And as always, I could be wrong. But the "why" (whatever it may be) does not alleviate the fact that Emotiva's Generation 3 XPA products are a step down in sound quality from their Generation 2 products. Emotiva can and should do better. Keith? Why do you and otherss contintue to conflate 'H' and 'A/B'? |
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Post by audiobill on Oct 6, 2020 17:33:58 GMT -5
Because he supports what he sells?
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Post by leonski on Oct 7, 2020 0:24:26 GMT -5
Because he supports what he sells? I understand that......but would counter that education sells better than 'plan B'..... You might even be able to put a class H Power Supply with a 'D' amp.....?? Than what would it be called? |
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Post by audiobill on Oct 7, 2020 2:27:53 GMT -5
A mixed up mashup?
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Post by rbk123 on Oct 7, 2020 10:30:20 GMT -5
Keith? Why do you and otherss contintue to conflate 'H' and 'A/B'? It's an odd conversation, for sure. Boom - discussing Class H power supplies, for both A/B and H topologies Keith - clarifying A/B and H topologies, for both linear and SMPS power supplies They're not on the same page. |
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Lsc
Emo VIPs
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Post by Lsc on Oct 7, 2020 15:18:20 GMT -5
Well I’m not sure about XPR-1 (being fully balanced it was probably in its own league) but the XPR2 while it served me well with no issues, the ATI 4002 is a better sounding amp.
So, I vote against reviving the XPR series, instead maybe Emotiva can shock the world again with state of the art amps with state of the art looks at killer prices.
And use the ATI 6000 / 4000 series as a benchmark.
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Post by leonski on Oct 7, 2020 21:44:41 GMT -5
Keith? Why do you and otherss contintue to conflate 'H' and 'A/B'? It's an odd conversation, for sure. Boom - discussing Class H power supplies, for both A/B and H topologies Keith - clarifying A/B and H topologies, for both linear and SMPS power supplies They're not on the same page. Read the description for the HC-1. In that document, it is made fairly clear that 'H' is a power supply scheme and A/B is the output bias of the amplifier section. 2 different things. People tend to conflate the 2. As it turns out? The specs of the HC-1 look good, even if 'High Current' is a certain red herring. But the power looks adequate for even the lowest sensitivity speakers at higher levels and in larger spaces. Simply not needed for 90db+ speakers, in general. And certainly NEVER if the speaker is a real 96db or higher..... The exception would be if the amp were incapable of driving highly reactive loads.......Some B&W, maybe, or even some Thiel speakers. For me? If I had a pair of TRIO of these? I'd make certain that I had a DEDICATED 20 amp line for JUST the amps......The PS willcertainly ide at very low power, but the A/B output won't ever be more than maybe 50% efficient and with speaker efficienty not greater than maybe 4% or so? Do the math and see that 98% of your 'power' goes to heat. Good in winter, not so good in Summer! |
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