Emotiva 7.2.4 with Bi-Amping

[giubio]

Hello to everyone !
I wish to completely renew may present 5.1 Home Theatre system with a new 7.2.4
Regarding the amplification section, I am thinking on a full Emotiva system with the three front channels in bi-amping and differential outputs.
The system probably is redundant for the surround part, but I wish to get the maximum.
So, this is what I wish to realise:
1. Preamplifier, Emotiva RMC-1L
2. the 3 front channels, 2 x XPA-DR3
3. the surround and Dolby Atmos, 2 x XPA-4 Gen3
Here below you will find the drawing of what I am designing.
I wish some comments from your side.
...and please, pardon me for my poor English...because I am Italian an I do not have many occasions to write in English

[markc]

If you want to get "the maximum" then you absolutely require ceiling speakers for an Atmos system, or Dolby Enabled "sound bouncers" as a much poorer second choice.

Dolby does not make any recommendation for all wall mounted height channels as an option for any Atmos layout specification - you require a minimum of two ceiling mounted speakers.
See www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/

From Dolby website:
Dolby Atmos speaker setup
There are a few ways to bring the overhead sound of Dolby Atmos into your home:

Ceiling speakers
Speakers enabled with Dolby Atmos
A soundbar enabled with Dolby Atmos

Note that wall mounted "height" speakers are not mentioned as one of the three ways, and to not have ceiling speakers is a big compromise rather than attaining "The Maximum" that you desire and to match the considerable expense you are planning to outlay.

[esquire]

Nov 17, 2020 16:31:00 GMT -5 giubio said:

Hello to everyone !
I wish to completely renew may present 5.1 Home Theatre system with a new 7.2.4
Regarding the amplification section, I am thinking on a full Emotiva system with the three front channels in bi-amping and differential outputs.
The system probably is redundant for the surround part, but I wish to get the maximum.
So, this is what I wish to realise:
1. Preamplifier, Emotiva RMC-1L
2. the 3 front channels, 2 x XPA-DR3
3. the surround and Dolby Atmos, 2 x XPA-4 Gen3
Here below you will find the drawing of what I am designing.
I wish some comments from your side.
...and please, pardon me for my poor English...because I am Italian an I do not have many occasions to write in English
View Attachment

Your English is admirable. Welcome to the clan and good hunting for the perfect setup. 

[giubio]

Nov 17, 2020 18:06:21 GMT -5 markc said:

...

Note that wall mounted "height" speakers are not mentioned as one of the three ways, and to not have ceiling speakers is a big compromise rather than attaining "The Maximum" that you desire and to match the considerable expense you are planning to outlay.

Klipsch, in their site, declare the RP-500SA as Dolby Atmos speakers to be mounted on the upper side of  floor-speakers or as height speakers.
May be I am wrong !?!
Which speakers do you suggest instead of the Klipsch ?

However, what regarding the bi-amping?
Beppe

[leonski]

First? Biamp doesn't Really do much. Takes another amp, of course, but both amps still must deal with the full range signal.
So the net-gain is NOT like having 2x the power.
At least until you go with a line-level crossover between amps and preamp.
And besides? Those speakers are fairly sensitive at 91db which means they don't need nearly 1000 watts. 1/4th that would be fine. IF good watts.
Also? You DO have several dedicated 20 amp circuits, right? 3, maybe 4 would be about right.
And finally? Do the Klipsch have a good timbre match with the B&W? They'll stick out like a sore thumb if not a good match

MIght consider a slight rebudget to INCLUDE some form of room treatment. You'll have to research that and see where it fits in with your plans.

Article.....only Part1, on biamp

sound-au.com/bi-amp.htm

excellent graphic, BTW.    You could make money doing that.

[ttocs]

I agree with leonski. Good points. 

I'm a huge fan of passive bi-amping, like your image shows, when it will actually be a benefit. I used passive bi-amping on a pair of Martin Logan Vista speakers, but it was only a noticeable improvement at higher volume. At normal and low volume there was not an obvious difference. The Vista speaker has a electrostatic mid and treble panel, and passive cone woofer. It was at high volume that the woofer could interfere with the electrostatic panel and cause some distortion in the upper frequencies.

I highly doubt that a speaker with all cone drivers could have as noticeable difference when using passive bi-amp connection.

BTW Nice amps!!

[leonski]

I am running ONE stereo amplifier for each of my Magnepans.     Total power is in line with what the speaker can use.    Which is a very very high power.   Speaker is also of quite LOW sensitivity, so that sort of makes sense.

If I had the know-how?   I'd buy a MiniDSP and GUT the speakers crossover and go direct-drive from each amp channel to each driver in the panel.    It's a 2-way......so that makes it a LITTLE easier.

When I went this route?   I actually went DOWN in power a little.    But the amp I replaced was a 'D' amp which made me nuts....long term.  

Keep in mind that 'Power Per Way' is related to crossover frequency.    The 50:50 power point is quite a bit lower than you may think.   Around 350hz give or take.  Offloading some of the load to a sub and LOW CUTTING

the main speaker may slightly Raise that number.  



B&W are sometimes a difficult load, regardless of the impedance claimed.   I'd be more concerned with better watts than merely 'more'.....But that's just ME.    

[markc]

Nov 17, 2020 18:58:08 GMT -5 giubio said:

Nov 17, 2020 18:06:21 GMT -5 markc said:

...

Note that wall mounted "height" speakers are not mentioned as one of the three ways, and to not have ceiling speakers is a big compromise rather than attaining "The Maximum" that you desire and to match the considerable expense you are planning to outlay.

Klipsch, in their site, declare the RP-500SA as Dolby Atmos speakers to be mounted on the upper side of  floor-speakers or as height speakers.
May be I am wrong !?!
Which speakers do you suggest instead of the Klipsch ?

However, what regarding the bi-amping?
Beppe

The Klipsch RP-500SA will ONLY be able to function as Dolby Atmos speakers when set up ON TOP of the floor / shelf mounted main speakers i.e. working as Dolby Enabled speakers and bouncing sound off the ceiling.

Mounted on the walls they are just simple height speakers, which don't have a place in any of the multiple published Dolby options for recommended Atmos setups unless there are at least two ceiling speakers.

From the Klipsch website:
Enhance your home theater system with the incredible, overhead sound effects of the Klipsch RP-500SA Dolby Atmos® speaker. By leveraging Klipsch proprietary horn-loaded controlled directivity technology, the RP-500SA bounces sound off the ceiling to create an astonishing, immersive listening experience. The Reference Premiere 500SA can also be utilized as an on-wall elevation or surround speaker via its easy-to-use keyhole mounting system - delivering the perfect angle for enhanced sound effects.


(The bold is mine to emphasise the fact that when used mounted on wall it is not marketed as a Dolby Atmos speaker, and neither can it be)

[giubio]

So, if I understand (not easy for me to fully understand english at the first reading...), according to your opinions, I am designing my new 7.2.4 with three main errors:
1. Bi-amping not needed, translated in simpler words, I will only wasting money...
2. The Klipsch RP-500SA are not suitable for Dolby Atmos
3. Klipsch are probably not matching the B&W timbre.

This means that I have to study again the system starting from zero...

[ttocs]

1. Correct. Do many other things first. Bi-amping not needed now. Can do later.

Speaker placement is not easy, but it's free, and is the most important first step. It can also have a big improvement.

[leonski]

Nov 18, 2020 21:10:49 GMT -5 giubio said:

So, if I understand (not easy for me to fully understand english at the first reading...), according to your opinions, I am designing my new 7.2.4 with three main errors:
1. Bi-amping not needed, translated in simpler words, I will only wasting money...
2. The Klipsch RP-500SA are not suitable for Dolby Atmos
3. Klipsch are probably not matching the B&W timbre.

This means that I have to study again the system starting from zero...

After all is said and done?   It IS a 'system' which means parts go together and all together serve the end.   You must evaluate your goals.    Your listening space.    And available resources.

[mgbpuff]

One last observation; the Klipsch RP502S speakers are not ideal for any Dolby Atomos which works best and is designed for point sources. Buona fortuna!

[markc]

Nov 18, 2020 21:10:49 GMT -5 giubio said:

So, if I understand (not easy for me to fully understand english at the first reading...), according to your opinions, I am designing my new 7.2.4 with three main errors:
1. Bi-amping not needed, translated in simpler words, I will only wasting money...
2. The Klipsch RP-500SA are not suitable for Dolby Atmos
3. Klipsch are probably not matching the B&W timbre.

This means that I have to study again the system starting from zero...

1) Yes
2) They ARE suitable for Atmos, but only when used as Dolby Enabled speakers sat ON TOP of your Front and rear L&R speakers. Will they give ambient height sound if you use a Dolby Atmos decoder to render sound to them when mounted on the wall? Yes, but only as much as any wall mounted height speaker is suitable. If you mount them on the wall, you are not using an Atmos recognised setup and so the rendering will be inaccurate. Will it be acceptable? I can't say. If you cannot fit ceiling speakers, is it better than nothing? Probably, but know that you are not getting Dolby Atmos positional audio because the speakers are not on the ceiling in a recognised Atmos configuration.

[giubio]

Just to show you the position of the speakers.

The RP500SA are in the upper corners of the room.

The RP-502S and the tweeters of the 802 at the height of the listener's ears

The room is roughly 4.5 x 5.5 m (14.8 x 18.1 feet)

[giubio]

Please notice: the only items I have at the moment are the two B&W front speakers, the Primare BD32 and the SKY HD Receiver.
The rest it will come as soon as I will decide the final version of the HT.
The room is under renovation, then I'm stil in time to modify everything.

[ttocs]

Just for the record.
From Klipsch:
"Enhance your home theater system with the incredible, overhead sound effects of the Klipsch RP-500SA Dolby Atmos® speaker. By leveraging Klipsch proprietary horn-loaded controlled directivity technology, the RP-500SA bounces sound off the ceiling to create an astonishing, immersive listening experience. The Reference Premiere 500SA can also be utilized as an on-wall elevation or surround speaker via its easy-to-use keyhole mounting system - delivering the perfect angle for enhanced sound effects."

On wall. No problem.

The timbre is a different matter. The B&W's have such a character in their tweeters, I don't know if there's a non-B&W that would match in timbre. Klipsch would probably be closer than most, and for surround and ATMOS locations would probably be ok.

BUT, the center speaker really needs to match the Left/Right speakers for a thoroughly enjoyable experience. Get the cohesiveness of the Left, Center, and Right speakers correct and it's a wonderful experience! When the sound goes from Left to Center to Right, if the speakers don't match it might be ok, but when they match it's truly impressive. If the budget is available for all the speakers on your list and a matching B&W Center speaker, go for it. But if budget is not enough, then still get the B&W center and less surround/ATMOS speakers. 

[leonski]

Nov 19, 2020 12:25:57 GMT -5 giubio said:

Just to show you the position of the speakers.

The RP500SA are in the upper corners of the room.

The RP-502S and the tweeters of the 802 at the height of the listener's ears

The room is roughly 4.5 x 5.5 m (14.8 x 18.1 feet)

View AttachmentView AttachmentView AttachmentView Attachment

I am just curious as to how many electrical circuits you have everthing plugged into.....seperate breakers at the panel......

[markc]

Nov 19, 2020 13:06:12 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Just for the record.
From Klipsch:
"Enhance your home theater system with the incredible, overhead sound effects of the Klipsch RP-500SA Dolby Atmos® speaker. By leveraging Klipsch proprietary horn-loaded controlled directivity technology, the RP-500SA bounces sound off the ceiling to create an astonishing, immersive listening experience. The Reference Premiere 500SA can also be utilized as an on-wall elevation or surround speaker via its easy-to-use keyhole mounting system - delivering the perfect angle for enhanced sound effects."

On wall. No problem.

Sorry to upset all of you with wall mounted speakers, but whilst ttocs is right, it is no problem to have on-wall speakers (whether these Klipsch or any others), but note that used like this they are NOT then Atmos speakers.

Atmos positional audio specifically uses overhead ceiling speakers. Period. If you have 4 or 6 ceiling speakers, those ceiling speakers can be augmented by wall mounted speakers as I showed earlier in the thread, but the ceiling speakers are a necessary part of the Atmos setups.

Even the Klipsch blurb you pasted and emboldened in the second part of the paragraph simply refers to them as "elevation or surround speakers" when used on-wall where they "can also be utilised".

Klipsch are being clever - their paragraph above leads casual readers to infer that they are Dolby Atmos both when used as sound-bouncers reflecting off the ceiling, as in the first sentence, or as on-wall speakers.

However, this is not what they are stating or implying though. They are most definitely only Dolby Atmos Enabled speakers. They have missed the word "Enabled" out, but this is what they are describing.
(Unless I suppose you screwed them to the central ceiling as down-firers above the listeners)
On wall they are ideally suited to be top tier height surround speakers in an Audyssey DSX setup

[ttocs]

Nov 20, 2020 15:44:59 GMT -5 markc said:

Nov 19, 2020 13:06:12 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Just for the record.
From Klipsch:
"Enhance your home theater system with the incredible, overhead sound effects of the Klipsch RP-500SA Dolby Atmos® speaker. By leveraging Klipsch proprietary horn-loaded controlled directivity technology, the RP-500SA bounces sound off the ceiling to create an astonishing, immersive listening experience. The Reference Premiere 500SA can also be utilized as an on-wall elevation or surround speaker via its easy-to-use keyhole mounting system - delivering the perfect angle for enhanced sound effects."

On wall. No problem.

Sorry to upset all of you with wall mounted speakers, but whilst ttocs is right, it is no problem to have on-wall speakers (whether these Klipsch or any others), but note that used like this they are NOT then Atmos speakers.

Atmos positional audio specifically uses overhead ceiling speakers. Period. If you have 4 or 6 ceiling speakers, those ceiling speakers can be augmented by wall mounted speakers as I showed earlier in the thread, but the ceiling speakers are a necessary part of the Atmos setups.

Even the Klipsch blurb you pasted and emboldened in the second part of the paragraph simply refers to them as "elevation or surround speakers" when used on-wall where they "can also be utilised".

Klipsch are being clever - their paragraph above leads casual readers to infer that they are Dolby Atmos both when used as sound-bouncers reflecting off the ceiling, as in the first sentence, or as on-wall speakers.

However, this is not what they are stating or implying though. They are most definitely only Dolby Atmos Enabled speakers. They have missed the word "Enabled" out, but this is what they are describing.
(Unless I suppose you screwed them to the central ceiling as down-firers above the listeners)
On wall they are ideally suited to be top tier height surround speakers in an Audyssey DSX setup

Great catch! I missed the fact that they will never be ATMOS when not mounted on the ceiling!! Goofy me.

I was so intently looking at whether it would be proper to mount that model speaker on the wall that I got tunnelvision. 

[giubio]

OK, now it's my turn :-)

1. The bi-amping:
it can be redundant, not strictly necessary, but I think it can bring significant improvements in listening.
The separate amplification of woofer & mid-range from the tweeter can only bring benefits.
This is at least my experience with my other HiFi and HT systems owned in the past

2. The center speaker:
YES, to match the timbre, the B&W can be an option, but the suitable loudspeaker from B&W costs more than 6000 Euro (in Italy) that is roughly 7200 USD...
In my opinion, an exorbitant price that makes no sense
I'm not willing to spend that amount.

3. The Klipsch RP-500SA:
The four loudspeakers at the upper corners of the room, are "pointing to the listener at the center of the seat.
Sincerely I - technically - do not understand why they should not be considered Dolby Atmos.
On the contrary, I am convinced that direct sound versus reflected sound is better, even if literally Klipsh does not say exactly that.

Not yet definitively decided, but most probably I will go for the 2 x XPA-DR2 to drive the two B&W 802 in pure bi-ambing (one XPA-DR2 for each speaker) and XPA-6 + XPA-4 to drive the center channel in bi-amping and the 4+4 surround speakers .
For the pre-amplifier...I am considering the RMC-1 instead of the 1L version because of the all-channels equipped with the AKM4490 converters and the possibility to add extra channels in the future.