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Post by creimes on Nov 25, 2020 22:49:43 GMT -5
^^^^^^ Those plugs are nice! Funny, I have those same locking ends on some cables and can't stand them, the BFA Banana's from KnuKonceptz are the best ends I have ever owned to date, I would twist those locking ones till my hands went numb and they still weren't tight, I used pliers and still not that great haha. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Nov 25, 2020 23:03:42 GMT -5
I'm really not a fan of plugs or spades, I prefer bare wire. With that said, I very recently succumbed to using banana plugs again mostly because I've rearranged my stuff a few times in the last year and with the extra channels it's a real pain to get the wire in the hole. 16 gauge was so much easier way back when. I bought some Monoprice bananas and they are easy to work with. I like how big the wire hole is and the fact that the compression screw is huge. It's a simple design.  www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=&cp_id=&cs_id=&p_id=9437&sep=1&format=2 |
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,170
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Post by ttocs on Nov 25, 2020 23:07:53 GMT -5
^^^^^^ Those plugs are nice! Funny, I have those same locking ends on some cables and can't stand them, the BFA Banana's from KnuKonceptz are the best ends I have ever owned to date, I would twist those locking ones till my hands went numb and they still weren't tight, I used pliers and still not that great haha. The Nakamichi plug design looks nice, but after what Boom said it's got some issues. I just peaked at the ones you mention and they look like there's not enough meat to grab onto. The Monoprice bananas I started using recently seem to be working out ok. Cheap enough to check out. |
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Post by creimes on Nov 26, 2020 2:11:12 GMT -5
Funny, I have those same locking ends on some cables and can't stand them, the BFA Banana's from KnuKonceptz are the best ends I have ever owned to date, I would twist those locking ones till my hands went numb and they still weren't tight, I used pliers and still not that great haha. The Nakamichi plug design looks nice, but after what Boom said it's got some issues. I just peaked at the ones you mention and they look like there's not enough meat to grab onto. The Monoprice bananas I started using recently seem to be working out ok. Cheap enough to check out. It's odd the KnuKonceptz ones have a nice tight fit but yet are not insanely tough to remove either, BFA style actually have one of if not the best amounts of contact with the inner binding post, it is easy to fit the 10g cable from them as well as there are two offset screws to hold the cable in the end, honestly from all the different ends I have owned over the years I really like them., I have a few of the ones you linked as well, my rear speaker cable runs have them on them. Chad P.S the Karma cable from KnuKonceptz looks killer   |
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Post by widespreadpanic on Nov 28, 2020 22:47:32 GMT -5
I've made 8AWG cables before and can tell you of the issues: 1. Bring a GIANT soldering iron. One of those that they made in the 1950s that look like a ½" metal pipe with a cap on the end. You'll need that much heat (or else use a torch) to get the strands hot enough to tin. Even 8AWG laughs at "soldering pencils." 4AWG almost certainly will need a propane torch. 2. Want to terminate the wire? FUGGITABOUTIT! Nobody ( Nobody) makes spades or bananas for that big a wire. Yeah, some SAY they do, but just try & stuff all the strands into the connector - not even close. 3. The huge wire is so stiff that the amplifier and speakers go where the WIRE wants them to go. Forget about tight radius turns. 4. The advantage of the large radius wire (low resistance) is totally lost at the source and destination ends. You can't stuff even an 8AWG wire into a binding post or terminal, so you end up filing down the diameter to something usable. Once you've reduced the diameter, you've increased the resistance - so why bother with the larger wire in the first place? My recommendation to you? Stick with 10AWG at the largest and then either double the runs and/or biwire. The easiest way to double runs is to make two wires the same length - fit one pair with spade terminals and the other with banana plugs. Then, at both the amplifier and speaker ends, use both a spade and a banana to connect. I've also used biwire pairs with 12AWG (or even 10) on the woofers and maybe 14AWG on the high frequency run - for these, I use a single spade or banana on the amplifier end and terminate the speaker end to match the terminals supplied by the speaker-maker. Good luck, and if you DO go insane and make the 4AWG wires, please post us some photos! Boomzilla Hey Boom, humor me for a moment though. Regarding whether the wire would fit, check out these images... what do you think? www.nakamichiplug.com/pic/0575G04.jpgwww.batterycablesusa.com/assets/images/4-0-close-meas.jpgIf that cable is 5mm and those plugs are about 10mm, should work right? It looks like the plugs are on a metric scale and the wire is on a standard scale. 5/8 of an inch equals almost 16 mm. The cable looks as if it is 5/8 of an inch. |
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Post by rockman85 on Nov 30, 2020 16:54:11 GMT -5
Hi rockman85 - In theory, they’d be fine - but I’ve used those EXACT same plugs, and I could never get all the strands in. Further, with most of the plug’s interior volume filled with wire strands, the wire-retainer setscrews will NOT screw all the way into the body of the plug. Since the stubs of those setscrews now protrude from the plug body, the threaded compression collar won’t screw onto the plug body. In my opinion, the Nakamichi plugs are poorly engineered and absolutely do.not work. Boom Thanks for the advice, I decided to steer clear. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 30, 2020 17:56:19 GMT -5
ASSUMING (generous assumption) that the Inside Diameter (ID) of the Nakamichi IS ⅝" (about 16mm - and it looks like about only HALF that in the picture) - And also assuming (generous assumption) that the Outside Diameter (OD) of the 4AWG is also ⅝" (and it actually looks closer to ¾" or 19mm in the picture) - then there is ZERO clearance to spare. And in fact, once the wire is stripped of its insulation, it will NEVER again fit into the OD that it had while insulated. Therefore, all of the copper will NOT fit into the Nakamichi, and there will be no way to force it. Yes, in theory, you MIGHT be able to heat the Nakamichi and freeze the 4AWG so that they'll actually fit together. But even if you can do that, 100% of the free space inside the Nakamichi barrel is now filled with copper wire. This is important. When you try to thread in the clamping setscrews (that are longer than the Nakamichi barrel is thick) then they will become tight with about ½ of the setscrew length still on the outside of the Nakamichi barrel. Why is this an issue? Because the outer shell of the Nakamichi (that which you twist to compress the banana when connecting) must fit OVER the Nakamichi barrel with virtually ZERO clearance. If the setscrews are sticking out by 50% of their length, the outer shell of the Nakamichi will NOT go on over the protrusions. Therefore, the banana is no longer a "locking" plug. I couldn't quite fit 8AWG into my Nakamichis, and even when I cut off the spare whiskers, I still ran into the setscrew clearance problem and ended up just soldering the wire into the barrel. If 8AWG wouldn't go, 4AWG certainly won't. In this, I AM "the voice of experience." |
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 30, 2020 18:09:02 GMT -5
...the Karma cable from KnuKonceptz looks killer Hi creimes - May "look killer," but I've had problems with those "Soda-Straw Banana Plugs." If you try to insert them into a jack that is the slightest bit tight (and there are LOTS of those around), then the plug will bend. Once bent, you can never get it straight again, and the entire plug must be cut off and replaced. In theory, that type of plug does offer advantages - lots of contact area. But in practice, I value reliability more. The most reliable non-locking bananas I've encountered look like these (the spring tension keeps them in place): The most reliable locking ones I've encountered look like these (WTB brand or imitators): All of the above, by the way, work fine with wire up to 10AWG. Nothing larger! And unless you anticipate needing to change wires often, then just use bare wire. I generally dislike spades, because you never know what diameter posts you'll need the spades to fit. |
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Post by leonski on Dec 29, 2020 19:46:56 GMT -5
The oversized wire gauge craze is interesting and in some cases may make a slight difference. The following is from a Crown 1250 watt amplifier manual. For low-impedance loads, select the appropriate size of wire based on the distance from amplifier to speaker. Distance Wire Size Up to 25 ft. (7.6m) 16 AWG 26-40 ft. (7.9-12.2m) 14 AWG 41-60 ft. (12.5-18.3m) 12 AWG > 60 ft (18.3m) 10 AWG The recommendations actually make a limited amount of sense. I however, would never go below 14. I would base my choice on speaker sensitivity not power available. My very low sensitivity panels need more power for any given level than most other speakers. So I went with 10ga Belden. I WOULD NOT DO THAT AGAIN. 12 would be fine for up to maybe 25 feet or so. But my current runs? <3 feet. 2 runs from the amp to the speaker. One amp behind EACH panel. A few of the DIY guys use MAGNET WIRE and make multi-strand cables per some kind of personal formula...... |
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Post by rockman85 on Jan 19, 2021 18:54:14 GMT -5
Hi rockman85 - In theory, they’d be fine - but I’ve used those EXACT same plugs, and I could never get all the strands in. Further, with most of the plug’s interior volume filled with wire strands, the wire-retainer setscrews will NOT screw all the way into the body of the plug. Since the stubs of those setscrews now protrude from the plug body, the threaded compression collar won’t screw onto the plug body. In my opinion, the Nakamichi plugs are poorly engineered and absolutely do.not work. Boom So I finally got around to doing this... things I learned along the way. 1. The bananaplugs I got, while they did have (almost) the right measurements, had a different sized inner canal that I could not get the cable into, I am only utilizing the first screw on the bananplug because it was impossible to get into the inner chamber, 8 or 10 gauge may have worked. 2. Heat shrink tubing is kinda tricky and you need to be really slow and meticulous when applying it. 3. I am not an artist by any stretch of the imagination and my first go at making cables that look nice was a bit hit or miss with each terminal I made. With all that said, here is what they look like. The one thing I noticed already about these cables is bass sounds a lot more prominent (which was my desired goal). It was fun to do, and if I had to do it over again I would probably be a little more careful with the shrink tubing and I probably wouldn't go bigger than 8awg next time.   |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 19, 2021 23:17:47 GMT -5
“The one thing I noticed already about these cables is bass sounds a lot more prominent (which was my desired goal). “ Not a chance of this |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 20, 2021 6:31:56 GMT -5
Hi 405x5 - You saying that wires can't make any difference in bass response? Why would they NOT? If we're talking of a "nominal 4-ohm" loudspeaker with a minimum impedance of 3 ohms (usually in the bass), then a pair of speaker wires with even 10% additional resistance (0.3 ohms) would DEFINITELY affect the bass. But wait - there's more! The wire resistance measurement is normally taken on a SINGLE strand of wire. But for a completed circuit of the loop from your amp to the speaker and back, the signal has to travel through TWO lengths of speaker wire. Further, remember that wire termination is never perfect, and whether clamped, screwed, or soldered, you're now making your signal travel through not one, not two, not three, but FOUR wire-to-terminal interfaces. Additionally, the wire-terminal to speaker/amplifier-terminal interfaces (FOUR of them too) are also imperfect. SO your electrical signal has to make the following loop: Red amplifier terminal to positive speaker wire terminal (banana or spade) Positive speaker wire terminal to the actual speaker wire Actual positive speaker wire to the speaker wire terminal (banana or spade) Positive speaker wire terminal to the speaker Positive input terminal Negative speaker terminal to the Negative wire speaker terminal (banana or spade) Negative speaker wire terminal to the actual speaker wire Actual negative speaker wire terminal to the speaker wire terminal (banana or spade) Negative speaker wire terminal to the Black amplifier terminal I have actually MEASURED up to 0.4 Ohms of resistance per individual wire, banana to banana, in COMMERCIAL speaker wires. Keeping in mind that the (single-channel) signal also has to travel between two wire lengths, and also through four wire terminal to speaker/amplifier terminal interfaces, it isn't unreasonable to assume the better part of an Ohm of resistance in the wiring circuit (almost 25% of the speaker's nominal impedance)! Would you care to revise your "Not a chance of this" assessment of how speaker wires can affect the sound, particularly in the bass? Cordially - Boomzilla In fact (and not to hijack the thread), here are "Boom's speaker wire tenets" 1. Lower resistance wire is (usually) better than higher resistance wire 2. Bare wire is better than terminated wire (see No. 1) 3. Wire with more strands is better than wire with fewer (unproven assertion based on listening) 4. Wire with lower capacitance / inductance is better than wire with more (unproven assertion based on listening) 5. Wire with higher resistance insulation is better than wire with lower (unproven assertion based on listening) Make of those what you will. |
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Post by megash0n on Jan 20, 2021 7:54:44 GMT -5
“The one thing I noticed already about these cables is bass sounds a lot more prominent (which was my desired goal). “ Not a chance of this come on. You know it takes a bigger cable for those long sine waves. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 20, 2021 8:06:29 GMT -5
“The one thing I noticed already about these cables is bass sounds a lot more prominent (which was my desired goal). “ Not a chance of this come on. You know it takes a bigger cable for those long sine waves. .....OP better watch out! I may sneak in when nobody’s lookin and swipe that 4 gauge to back feed my generator to the panel.....MAYBE even peek in the fridge and see if there’s any jelly doughnuts 🍩 left. Bill |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 20, 2021 11:41:00 GMT -5
“Hi 405x5 - Would you care to revise your "Not a chance of this" assessment of how speaker wires can affect the sound, particularly in the bass?” Oops! You’re right Boomzilla What I meant was 4 gauge for loudspeakers is something that should be relegated to the “Today’s Humor” section |
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Post by rockman85 on Jan 20, 2021 12:04:52 GMT -5
“The one thing I noticed already about these cables is bass sounds a lot more prominent (which was my desired goal). “ Not a chance of this I had both speakers hooked up, one to my old 12awg cable and one to the new, I played The Trooper, an Iron Maiden track that I am very familiar with. I then moved from one speaker to the other, and I can definitely hear Steve Harris' bass guitar a lot more on the fat cable. Its more bold and pronounced and pops out a bit more from the speaker. Maybe you think I am imagining this but I hear it. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 20, 2021 12:36:52 GMT -5
“The one thing I noticed already about these cables is bass sounds a lot more prominent (which was my desired goal). “ Not a chance of this I had both speakers hooked up, one to my old 12awg cable and one to the new, I played The Trooper, an Iron Maiden track that I am very familiar with. I then moved from one speaker to the other, and I can definitely hear Steve Harris' bass guitar a lot more on the fat cable. Its more bold and pronounced and pops out a bit more from the speaker. Maybe you think I am imagining this but I hear it. Hey Rockman! Sure sounds like you’re happy with what you hear. All of us are in this to have fun 🤩 and at the end of the day that’s all that matters. My latest venture oddly enough is a more serious approach to sound with no wires at all. To that end, I’m waiting for Mr. FedEx to get here with my new “Sonos Move” portable loudspeaker. The goal is to develop a serious, WIRELESS sound system that’s portable as Hell, but at the same time, to give me second thoughts about continuing to lug all the heavy stuff. “The Move” is NOT a replacement for any of my existing gear only the beginning of how far I might take this down the road. Bill |
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Post by leonski on Jan 20, 2021 13:19:08 GMT -5
Is the output set for MONO when running the L / R comparison test of speaker wire? It can make a difference.
Also? Without reagards to some additional resistance in the wires......what is the overall DF? Anything over about 50 should be fine.
Those numbers you see of over 1000 or whatever are a fiction since as you point out, 'Ya Gotta have WIRE'.......
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Post by rockman85 on Jan 20, 2021 20:21:55 GMT -5
Is the output set for MONO when running the L / R comparison test of speaker wire? It can make a difference. Also? Without reagards to some additional resistance in the wires......what is the overall DF? Anything over about 50 should be fine. Those numbers you see of over 1000 or whatever are a fiction since as you point out, 'Ya Gotta have WIRE'....... I did not do the test with MONO, although I probably could have since the Node2i has a setting for this. Its a done deal though as there is no way I am going through all that cable changing while bending over balancing on one foot  . I believe I heard a difference and Frankly its good enough for me, even if it is placebo. Also, I am not sure how to calculate the over all DF (not an engineer). But I made my cables 5ft in length out of 4awg OFC, and the amp is the DR2 with 4ohm Pendragons (maybe). I asked for the 4ohm Pens but I have no way of confirming this without a multimeter. From what I understood from reading about DF though, the less resistance the greater the DF. So a 4 gauge cable has to have a higher DF, right? |
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Post by leonski on Jan 20, 2021 21:44:56 GMT -5
First? 4ohm speakers probably won't measure 4 ohms with a DVM or 'multimeter'......The speaker is rated to have an IMPEDANCE which is not quite the same, though also in 'ohms'.....
To calculate damping factor? You'd need some idea of the On Resistance of the output devices.
An easy way to 'simulate' very high damping factor is to bridge your speakers with a short piece of wire. I've used paperclips, in the past. 'Thump' the edge of the woofer with NO wire or anything attached
than only with a bridge wire.
Let us know what you hear when doing this comparison. I'd think a real overachiever could use 1 watt resistors. Make 'em 5 ohms, 10 ohms, (2x5 in series?) and 1k. You'll hear distinct differences as resistance goes UP.
50 ohms should simulate a DF of 10. Give or take.
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-1B.jpg)
. I believe I heard a difference and Frankly its good enough for me, even if it is placebo. 