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Post by foggy1956 on Jan 23, 2022 8:25:08 GMT -5
I'll say this much, and no more on this subject because it's plain to see that you've been brainwashed, or cannot think logically for yourself, and it really makes no difference which is the case. You will know the what and why's of these so-called vaxxes, and possibly very soon, and you ain't going to like it. So have at it, take a few more jabs, the sooner we're rid of the brainwashed the sooner we can get to repairing what is wrong with this country, and the rest of the world. There's science, and there's brainwashing. Never the two shall meet (except in politics). The vaccines are NOT perfect. They don't protect as widely as we'd wish, and some people have reactions to the vaccines themselves. But the vaccines haven't killed 865,000 people in the U.S.A. That would be the Coronavirus itself. That count isn't opinion or politics - it's a fact. And the death toll continues to rise (primarily in the unvaccinated). That is also a fact. Yes, some people who have been vaccinated and boosted still get the Omicron variant, but your chances of dying (or even being hospitalized) from Omicron go DOWN 90-something percent if you HAVE been vaccinated and boosted. Vaccines are NOT a cure for Coronavirus. But don't confuse the vaccine with the virus itself. It's the virus killing so many of us - not the vaccine. Will there be widespread side-effects from the vaccines? There might be, the jury's still out on that question and the vaccines are still pretty new. But if I can avoid death now, I'll risk some potential side effects down the road. I can't make your decision for you, but I've made mine and said why. I'm NOT brainwashed, and I DO think logically. Cordially - Boom How many have died that did not have co-morbidities? |
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Post by marcl on Jan 23, 2022 8:26:44 GMT -5
I'll say this much, and no more on this subject because it's plain to see that you've been brainwashed, or cannot think logically for yourself, and it really makes no difference which is the case. You will know the what and why's of these so-called vaxxes, and possibly very soon, and you ain't going to like it. So have at it, take a few more jabs, the sooner we're rid of the brainwashed the sooner we can get to repairing what is wrong with this country, and the rest of the world. There's science, and there's brainwashing. Never the two shall meet (except in politics). The vaccines are NOT perfect. They don't protect as widely as we'd wish, and some people have reactions to the vaccines themselves. But the vaccines haven't killed 865,000 people in the U.S.A. That would be the Coronavirus itself. That count isn't opinion or politics - it's a fact. And the death toll continues to rise (primarily in the unvaccinated). That is also a fact. Yes, some people who have been vaccinated and boosted still get the Omicron variant, but your chances of dying (or even being hospitalized) from Omicron go DOWN 90-something percent if you HAVE been vaccinated and boosted. Vaccines are NOT a cure for Coronavirus. But don't confuse the vaccine with the virus itself. It's the virus killing so many of us - not the vaccine. Will there be widespread side-effects from the vaccines? There might be, the jury's still out on that question and the vaccines are still pretty new. But if I can avoid death now, I'll risk some potential side effects down the road. I can't make your decision for you, but I've made mine and said why. I'm NOT brainwashed, and I DO think logically. Cordially - Boom You are correct Boom, and there's no use arguing with those folks who claim conspiracy. A couple things to reinforce: the technology behind the vaccines has been studied for over 10 years, so they are no more "new" than any other pharma technology that has been studied, tested and proven in clinical trials; the number of people who have potentially serious adverse events directly attributable to these vaccines is on the order of 0.005%; there are no long tern side effects to these vaccines because the vaccine itself is only in our systems for a few weeks (the mRNA only a couple days), and from then on our "natural immunity" does the job, not the vaccine. We can be generous and offer the unbelievers some leeway for the as yet 100% known facts, but the truth is the uncertainties are many orders of magnitude less significant than the known facts of the vaccines and the virus. And these vaccines are as effective as most other vaccines that we all have had, and much more effective than some. Thanks for hanging in there supporting rational thought! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 23, 2022 9:30:35 GMT -5
How many have died that did not have co-morbidities? Does it matter? They're still dead, and most wouldn't have been but for the virus. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 23, 2022 9:33:09 GMT -5
...there's no use arguing with those folks who claim conspiracy... Don't confuse them with facts - their minds' made up! |
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Post by drtrey3 on Jan 23, 2022 10:09:34 GMT -5
My problems with N95 masks. They are uncomfortable. I have a big nose and it has red marks whenever I leave the facility that requires N95 masks. Boohoo, but there it is! They require fitting. The seal is what makes it work. I have been required to wear them several times, but never once had one fitted. They are not effective for people with facial hair. That would be me. And most of the men I see today. So my objection is to the policy of requiring a less comfortable respirator that is used in ways that make it less protective than the surgical masks it replaces. I am deeply committed to keeping my patients safe from me as a carrier, so I distance and wash my hands till they are pink. And wear a mask where required, even those nasty N95s. I just do not pretend that it is anything but a stupid policy.
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Post by marcl on Jan 23, 2022 10:16:13 GMT -5
My problems with N95 masks. They are uncomfortable. I have a big nose and it has red marks whenever I leave the facility that requires N95 masks. Boohoo, but there it is! They require fitting. The seal is what makes it work. I have been required to wear them several times, but never once had one fitted. They are not effective for people with facial hair. That would be me. And most of the men I see today. So my objection is to the policy of requiring a less comfortable respirator that is used in ways that make it less protective than the surgical masks it replaces. I am deeply committed to keeping my patients safe from me as a carrier, so I distance and wash my hands till they are pink. And wear a mask where required, even those nasty N95s. I just do not pretend that it is anything but a stupid policy. Thank you! I have a beard too (used to get yelled at when visiting refineries and chem plants), but an unfitted N95 still beats all the alternatives. So I'll join you in still wearing them. Here's a study:  |
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Post by drtrey3 on Jan 23, 2022 10:30:38 GMT -5
Masked mustachioed Marc and Monroe. Forward we go!
Trey
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Post by ÈlTwo on Jan 23, 2022 11:04:56 GMT -5
How many have died that did not have co-morbidities? Almost none, but ... that's because comorbidities developed as a result of Covid are listed in the official statistics. If you want to delve into the statistics you're going to have to define the comorbidities you want to include. But bear in mind that obesity is a comorbidity for Covid-19 and over 42% of the US population is obese! |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 23, 2022 11:45:07 GMT -5
How many have died that did not have co-morbidities? Almost none, but ... that's because comorbidities developed as a result of Covid are listed in the official statistics. If you want to delve into the statistics you're going to have to define the comorbidities you want to include. But bear in mind that obesity is a comorbidity for Covid-19 and over 42% of the US population is obese! There is a difference between existing afflictions that become comorbidities when the patient is infected with Covid, versus comorbidities developed as a result of Covid. The literature suggests that any preexisting conditions are made worse by Covid, and those who have comorbidities are more likely to contract Covid, have more severe symptoms and die from it. I am not speaking in favor of or against the vaccine but pointing out that one thing that seems to be lacking is more emphasis on promoting good health practices - like proper diet and exercise. Sure, no matter what shape you are in you can still be afflicted with something deadly but you have a better chance of faster recovery and survival being fit than unfit. Maybe Covid is a wakeup call for good health practices that will lead to better long-term protection. But how many will heed that (and getting vaccinated if they so choose) versus running to the latest band-aid available while continuing with unhealthy habits? |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 23, 2022 11:57:02 GMT -5
Regarding the talk in this thread of science versus brainwashing or conspiracy theory or whatever appears to be anti-science...
There is no substitute for good, true science. But these days science too often is politicized and becomes a science of consensus rather than a continuing quest for the objective truth.
Let's look at North Korea and what those people believe. Many believe Kim Jong Un is literally a God. The people are free to think as long as they think what they are supposed to think. And you know what happens to dissidents over there.
Now you say that can't happen in a free country like the United States of America. But no matter where you live, your world view is shaped by the culture in which you are raised. And it not only depends on the knowledge you are exposed to, but how that knowledge is presented or, not presented (withheld).
Are dissidents in North Korea brainwashed or deluded under conspiracy theory? The ruling party would tell you so. There are probably many who secretly agree with these dissidents but they sure are not going to speak up, if they know what is good for them.
But not so in "free" countries, right? We can speak up because it is our right. But looking back in our own experience, how often have we refrained from speaking up because of fear of reprisal, ridicule, being ostracized, etc. Or we did speak up but were quickly shut down by the consensus majority? Politics enters into everything. Just because we have the right doesn't necessarily mean we choose to freely exercise it or are allowed to freely exercise it, because of politics.
Yes, a lot of conspiracy theories are looney but something should not be dismissed just because it has been labeled by someone as a "conspiracy theory." You also need to look at who is doing the labeling.
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Post by fbczar on Jan 23, 2022 12:03:22 GMT -5
Regarding the talk in this thread of science versus brainwashing or conspiracy theory or whatever appears to be anti-science... There is no substitute for good, true science. But these days science too often is politicized and becomes a science of consensus rather than a continuing quest for the objective truth. Let's look at North Korea and what those people believe. Many believe Kim Jong Un is literally a God. The people are free to think as long as they think what they are supposed to think. And you know what happens to dissidents over there. Now you say that can't happen in a free country like the United States of America. But no matter where you live, your world view is shaped by the culture in which you are raised. And it not only depends on the knowledge you are exposed to, but how that knowledge is presented or, not presented (withheld). Are dissidents in North Korea brainwashed or deluded under conspiracy theory? The ruling party would tell you so. There are probably many who secretly agree with these dissidents but they sure are not going to speak up, if they know what is good for them. But not so in "free" countries, right? We can speak up because it is our right. But looking back in our own experience, how often have we refrained from speaking up because of fear of reprisal, ridicule, being ostracized, etc. Or we did speak up but were quickly shut down by the consensus majority? Politics enters into everything. Just because we have the right doesn't necessarily mean we choose to freely exercise it or are allowed to freely exercise it, because of politics. Yes, a lot of conspiracy theories are looney but something should not be dismissed just because it has been labeled by someone as a "conspiracy theory." You also need to look at who is doing the labeling. Australia comes to mind. |
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Post by marcl on Jan 23, 2022 12:11:27 GMT -5
Regarding the talk in this thread of science versus brainwashing or conspiracy theory or whatever appears to be anti-science... There is no substitute for good, true science. But these days science too often is politicized and becomes a science of consensus rather than a continuing quest for the objective truth. Let's look at North Korea and what those people believe. Many believe Kim Jong Un is literally a God. The people are free to think as long as they think what they are supposed to think. And you know what happens to dissidents over there. Now you say that can't happen in a free country like the United States of America. But no matter where you live, your world view is shaped by the culture in which you are raised. And it not only depends on the knowledge you are exposed to, but how that knowledge is presented or, not presented (withheld). Are dissidents in North Korea brainwashed or deluded under conspiracy theory? The ruling party would tell you so. There are probably many who secretly agree with these dissidents but they sure are not going to speak up, if they know what is good for them. But not so in "free" countries, right? We can speak up because it is our right. But looking back in our own experience, how often have we refrained from speaking up because of fear of reprisal, ridicule, being ostracized, etc. Or we did speak up but were quickly shut down by the consensus majority? Politics enters into everything. Just because we have the right doesn't necessarily mean we choose to freely exercise it or are allowed to freely exercise it, because of politics. Yes, a lot of conspiracy theories are looney but something should not be dismissed just because it has been labeled by someone as a "conspiracy theory." You also need to look at who is doing the labeling. Agreed. And unfortunately, "science" doesn't get to choose what gets politicized. So science does what science does, someone takes a piece of it and through political, social media or other malicious means twists or misrepresents the science for their agenda ... and science gets blamed or ignored, etc. It's up to individuals to dig deeper, look to original sources, and use their intellectual skills to parse out the truth from all the self-serving manipulations. Yes, easier said than done. Most debates that I get into suffer from lack of consensus on facts themselves, not on interpretation. Our individual epistemic bubbles bounce off each other and consensus is impossible. And this applies to our audio hobby too (if I may point us back to what most of us come here to discuss  ). Much debate happens with regard to audio that has absolutely no foundation in fact, physics, biology, or even repeatable personal experience. And yet the debate goes on. My favorite quote over the past few years has been "Don't attribute to malice what can more easily be explained by ignorance" ... or "stupidity", depending which version you read. Another favorite quote has been "Why measure what you can hear with your own two ears?" Yes, sometimes ignorance is bliss! |
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Post by marcl on Jan 23, 2022 12:19:32 GMT -5
Almost none, but ... that's because comorbidities developed as a result of Covid are listed in the official statistics. If you want to delve into the statistics you're going to have to define the comorbidities you want to include. But bear in mind that obesity is a comorbidity for Covid-19 and over 42% of the US population is obese! There is a difference between existing afflictions that become comorbidities when the patient is infected with Covid, versus comorbidities developed as a result of Covid. The literature suggests that any preexisting conditions are made worse by Covid, and those who have comorbidities are more likely to contract Covid, have more severe symptoms and die from it. I am not speaking in favor of or against the vaccine but pointing out that one thing that seems to be lacking is more emphasis on promoting good health practices - like proper diet and exercise. Sure, no matter what shape you are in you can still be afflicted with something deadly but you have a better chance of faster recovery and survival being fit than unfit. Maybe Covid is a wakeup call for good health practices that will lead to better long-term protection. But how many will heed that (and getting vaccinated if they so choose) versus running to the latest band-aid available while continuing with unhealthy habits?  Got this from a friend who is a scientist. PhD professor specializing in immunology and vaccines. I think it's fair to say that comorbidities will shift the numbers higher, but the relative proportions remain significant. One might even argue that comorbidities would disproportionately affect the unvaccinated, making the case even stronger. The argument in favor of being vaccinated and boosted is overwhelmingly clear. The argument against, has no data at all. No significant medical exemption argument, and not even any significant/legitimate religious argument. And yes! Better health practices overall are good for us irrespective of the virus. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 23, 2022 12:40:50 GMT -5
There is a difference between existing afflictions that become comorbidities when the patient is infected with Covid, versus comorbidities developed as a result of Covid. The literature suggests that any preexisting conditions are made worse by Covid, and those who have comorbidities are more likely to contract Covid, have more severe symptoms and die from it. I am not speaking in favor of or against the vaccine but pointing out that one thing that seems to be lacking is more emphasis on promoting good health practices - like proper diet and exercise. Sure, no matter what shape you are in you can still be afflicted with something deadly but you have a better chance of faster recovery and survival being fit than unfit. Maybe Covid is a wakeup call for good health practices that will lead to better long-term protection. But how many will heed that (and getting vaccinated if they so choose) versus running to the latest band-aid available while continuing with unhealthy habits? Got this from a friend who is a scientist. PhD professor specializing in immunology and vaccines. I think it's fair to say that comorbidities will shift the numbers higher, but the relative proportions remain significant. One might even argue that comorbidities would disproportionately affect the unvaccinated, making the case even stronger. The argument in favor of being vaccinated and boosted is overwhelmingly clear. The argument against, has no data at all. No significant medical exemption argument, and not even any significant/legitimate religious argument. And yes! Better health practices overall are good for us irrespective of the virus. Here is data that shows different results: www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz-the-very-concerning-data-from-scotlandGranted, pretty much everything I've seen jibes more with what you posted from your friend. And while he is a PhD specializing in immunology and vaccines, there are others with the same background and expertise who are cautioning against the vaccine and recommending alternate treatment. Who is right? Each person needs to make their own conclusions. While the preponderance of the data indicates less severity with the vaccine, one has to weigh the overall risk of being infected whether vaccinated or not, and choose. For example, if some disease has a rate of 5 per 1,000 if vaccinated but 50 per 1,000 if not, it would seem the chances of being infected are 10x by foregoing vaccination. But is a 5% chance versus 1/2% chance enough to make you do it? Some would say yes and some would say no. |
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Post by marcl on Jan 23, 2022 12:53:03 GMT -5
<button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Got this from a friend who is a scientist. PhD professor specializing in immunology and vaccines. I think it's fair to say that comorbidities will shift the numbers higher, but the relative proportions remain significant. One might even argue that comorbidities would disproportionately affect the unvaccinated, making the case even stronger. The argument in favor of being vaccinated and boosted is overwhelmingly clear. The argument against, has no data at all. No significant medical exemption argument, and not even any significant/legitimate religious argument. And yes! Better health practices overall are good for us irrespective of the virus. Here is data that shows different results: www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz-the-very-concerning-data-from-scotlandGranted, pretty much everything I've seen jibes more with what you posted from your friend. And while he is a PhD specializing in immunology and vaccines, there are others with the same background and expertise who are cautioning against the vaccine and recommending alternate treatment. Who is right? Each person needs to make their own conclusions. While the preponderance of the data indicates less severity with the vaccine, one has to weigh the overall risk of being infected whether vaccinated or not, and choose. For example, if some disease has a rate of 5 per 1,000 if vaccinated but 50 per 1,000 if not, it would seem the chances of being infected are 10x by foregoing vaccination. But is a 5% chance versus 1/2% chance enough to make you do it? Some would say yes and some would say no. This is an excellent example. And I'm not intending to be critical of you for posting it. It allows us to illustrate something. First, as more and more people are vaccinated, there will be higher and higher numbers of breakthrough cases ... once everyone is vaccinated, only the vaccinated will be infected. Nearly 90% of Scotland is vaccinated ... nearly 100% for those over 50. Hospitalization rate is still twice as high for unvaccinated. And here's the rest of the fact-check ... www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-scotland-statistics/fact-check-graph-comparing-scottish-covid-19-hospitalisations-and-deaths-by-vaccination-status-lacks-key-information-idUSL1N2QQ24L |
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator 
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,849
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Post by LCSeminole on Jan 23, 2022 13:22:21 GMT -5
So much for a discussion amongst adults. It’s as if many of you can’t help turning a discussion such as this, “PERSONAL!"…………..
…………Discussion over, have a nice rest of your Sunday. Maybe watch the two NFL playoff games, Bills Vs Chiefs or Rams Vs Buccaneers anyone?
Oh yeah, any more Covid threads will be immediately deleted. Thanks for everyone’s cooperation.
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). Much debate happens with regard to audio that has absolutely no foundation in fact, physics, biology, or even repeatable personal experience. And yet the debate goes on.
