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Post by mauriceminor on Dec 29, 2020 9:47:46 GMT -5
Audio Advisor is a Bryston authorized online dealer
I've experienced excellent service from this firm
There are often Bryston demo units available
A newsletter subscription is available
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Post by leonski on Dec 29, 2020 14:09:58 GMT -5
BINGO! Should be no issue with warranty or service.
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pczach
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Post by pczach on Jan 3, 2021 11:18:48 GMT -5
Great job chops. Thank you for doing this comparison and taking the time to inform us of what you heard and your impressions. Your efforts are appreciated.
For those of you ripping this guy for making an effort to post information to others: If you really want to do something constructive, do your own comparisons in your own rooms, with your own equipment, with any definitions of "balanced" you prefer, in a room with sound treatments you deem acceptable to you, using equipment that you feel is "reference", take measurements with various meters and computer printouts, spending your own money on the new equipment needed for the comparison, spend your time writing up a post with your impressions of the comparison.....or shut the hell up.
If you are all so down on Emotiva gear or feel wronged in some way by the company, what the hell are you doing here? Go to the message boards of the makers of audiophile equipment that meet your rigid standards and have at it.
This thread was started by chops to tell us HIS impressions and observation, not anyone else's. I just don't get why people here have to rain on everyone's parade and bring someone down if they don't have the same opinions of equipment or dispute the real world application to specifications of a product.
If you don't agree based on your own experiences you are welcome to say so, but don't attempt to destroy a comparison test that was transparent and honest in his objectives to compare two pieces of equipment in his own system. If you didn't do a side-by-side comparison of the equipment discussed in this thread, then it is you who have no credibility on the subject.
If you don't like the process or the outcome....create your own thread and put the time and effort in instead of trying to discredit any opinion that may be different than yours that was done in good faith.
I don't care how much some of you think you know about all things audio. Your biases are bleeding through and no matter how hard you try to sound smarter than everyone else to belittle others, you come off as bitter, childish people that have to try to destroy any opinions that differ from your own and make someone else feel like crap to make you feel better about yourselves and validate your claims.
In other words....grow up. People who need to tear down others to raise themselves up are insecure, weak, and pathetic.
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Post by markc on Jan 3, 2021 11:45:00 GMT -5
The result of the CAT-scan would seem to imply unimpressed. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 4, 2021 15:44:14 GMT -5
Cats will leave the room if they don't like how it sounds. Cats are relieable gear testers.
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Post by chops on Jan 4, 2021 22:05:44 GMT -5
Are you two done?..
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Post by leonski on Jan 5, 2021 2:03:38 GMT -5
I'm sorry, chops, but with ALL due respect...and I'm certain that face to face you're a great guy and civil neighbor, you need a humor check.
I happen t love cats. Been staff to several over the years.....All left my panels Completely Alone.....didn't treat 'em as a giant scratch post.
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Post by brutiarti on Jan 6, 2021 23:56:10 GMT -5
Great job chops. Thank you for doing this comparison and taking the time to inform us of what you heard and your impressions. Your efforts are appreciated. For those of you ripping this guy for making an effort to post information to others: If you really want to do something constructive, do your own comparisons in your own rooms, with your own equipment, with any definitions of "balanced" you prefer, in a room with sound treatments you deem acceptable to you, using equipment that you feel is "reference", take measurements with various meters and computer printouts, spending your own money on the new equipment needed for the comparison, spend your time writing up a post with your impressions of the comparison.....or shut the hell up. If you are all so down on Emotiva gear or feel wronged in some way by the company, what the hell are you doing here? Go to the message boards of the makers of audiophile equipment that meet your rigid standards and have at it. This thread was started by chops to tell us HIS impressions and observation, not anyone else's. I just don't get why people here have to rain on everyone's parade and bring someone down if they don't have the same opinions of equipment or dispute the real world application to specifications of a product. If you don't agree based on your own experiences you are welcome to say so, but don't attempt to destroy a comparison test that was transparent and honest in his objectives to compare two pieces of equipment in his own system. If you didn't do a side-by-side comparison of the equipment discussed in this thread, then it is you who have no credibility on the subject. If you don't like the process or the outcome....create your own thread and put the time and effort in instead of trying to discredit any opinion that may be different than yours that was done in good faith. I don't care how much some of you think you know about all things audio. Your biases are bleeding through and no matter how hard you try to sound smarter than everyone else to belittle others, you come off as bitter, childish people that have to try to destroy any opinions that differ from your own and make someone else feel like crap to make you feel better about yourselves and validate your claims. In other words....grow up. People who need to tear down others to raise themselves up are insecure, weak, and pathetic. Your statement sounds like a cheap psychoanalysis of several complex people trying to make a point. Sounds about right??? |
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Post by brutiarti on Jan 7, 2021 0:03:18 GMT -5
Chops, your comparison is great. But don’t expect to dont be derailed, it’s the nature of the beast.
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KeithL
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Posts: 10,276
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Post by KeithL on Jan 7, 2021 1:45:47 GMT -5
So the actual band you heard sounded wrong...
Presumably that means that they would sound equally wrong on a totally accurate system... And, if they actually sounded good on someone's system, then the system must itself be wrong...
It also points out the obvious issue that, if your favorite band produced recordings that don't sound especially good to you, you're sort of stuck.
(With classical music you could find a different recording of the same piece, by a different orchestra, or a different conductor, or on a different label. However, with most rock, pop, or other modern music, you have little choice but to accept what the group gives you.)
The whole 'accuracy' thing hinges, IMO, on what is used as a reference. For someone who spends a lot of time going TO and Listening TO Live Music it's one thing. For someone who has been around the audio world for decades and seldom if Ever hears a Live perforance, something else entirely. I was at the county fair a few years ago and heard a band. Bu they were somehow WRONG. The PACE and RHYTHM were wrong. It was like they were standing in ankle deep MUD. I just coudn't get into these guys. Very good musicianship and a tight group. Just no 'drive'.......Overall I think they crowd enjoyed the performance. Different folks listen for different things and YOUR accuracy my not be MINE or even 'chops'........ Chops didn't like my 'use multiple speakers remark. But that is really the hinge of this. Each amp may or may not be better or worse, depending on the partnering gear. And I have YEET to hear about one of the more important aspects of this.....the ROOM which is certainly most of what you are hearing. Abundent clean power is also on the list. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 7, 2021 1:53:52 GMT -5
Indeed...
And, while both are quite accurate, because the XPA-DR2 is fully differential, certain distortion products cancel out between the two modules in each channel.
As a result, while both produce very little distortion, the spectral signature of the small amount of distortion they DO produce will be different. (Specifically, with the fully differential amp, certain harmonics tend to cancel out, while others do not, so the balance between the harmonics will be different.)
They will also have a slightly different output impedance... which can also have a slight effect on how they sound with a given load.
And, of course, while both have an admirably flat frequency response, they are not identical there either.
The point I would generally make is that our goal is to be entirely neutral - and we come pretty close to that objective. (As compared to some other manufacturers whose goal is to impart an intentional sonic signature - or "house sound" - to their products.)
Yes, my system is fully balanced from source to amp. The XPA-2 Gen2 is not a fully balanced amplifier, just some clarification. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 7, 2021 2:26:47 GMT -5
I'm inclined to both agree and disagree with a few things you've said...
The term "accuracy" is measured by whatever criteria you specify... However there are quite often criteria that are generally accepted to be "the most appropriate ones".
For example, if I write "1 + 1 = 2" on a math test, I'm probably going to be graded based on the resulting number, rather than on my handwriting. (But it's not quite so obvious in a contest on "conversational Spanish" - where I may be graded on grammar, or pronunciation, or both.)
If we're talking about an amplifier alone then accuracy really is "how precisely it reproduces the waveform". Of course, there are a variety of different measurements we could compare, and the specific load we use will probably affect affect the results.
And, if you're talking about a complete system, there are an incredible number of variables... For example no loudspeaker is capable of recreating the original "wave structure" of a live performance. By that I mean reproducing each waveform in the air perfectly... moving in the same direction as it left the original instrument.
With real instruments different collections of tones and harmonics exit the instrument, in different directions, according to different patterns, at the same time.
The only way to reproduce the true 3D structure of the sound coming from a piano is with a vibrating string. (So all we're really talking about is how well we can fool our limited human senses with "a good illusion of 3D".)
In another thread someone described hearing a band, live and in person, and finding that "they didn't sound right".
So, in that case, if he'd brought home a recording of that performance, and it sounded great on his system at home, then his system must be INACCURATE. (After all, if his system was perfectly accurate, the band would sound just as bad when he played the recording at home as they did in person.)
In most situations, unless we were invited to the studio during recording, we are looking for a decent rendition of WHAT WE THINK THE ORIGINAL SOUNDED LIKE. (And, even if you were there at the studio, during the final edit... we all know that our human "acoustic memory" is only accurate for ten minutes or so anyway.) So what we're really seeking is "a system that makes our favorite recordings sound like what we want or expect them to sound like"...
But, since each of us places different priorities on different factors, we end up evaluating the same data differently.
I know some people who find "3D Imax movies" to look "incredibly realistic"... I personally find the difference between "a stereo image" - which is what 3D Imax actually is - and a true 3D image to be quite jarring and annoying... (Imax 3D is the equivalent of a moving Stereopticon slide.... a ViewMaster for those who remember them... but it is not a true hologram.)
Try moving your head to the side to see something that is behind something else in a 3D Imax movie... Or try focusing on the bush in the foreground instead of the giant T-Rex glaring at you from stage center...
Both of those will fail to produce the result you expect - and in a most unnatural and jarring way... (It's up to the director to do a good job of keeping your attention focused where it belongs so that doesn't happen.)
Reproduced music is like that... The goal is always merely to accurately reproduce the stuff that you find important... And that isn't always the same stuff for me as it is for you...
Thank you for your effort in writing this up. But I'm shocked to learn you hear differences among Emotiva amps! With @keithl watching over "accuracy" how can these products sound different on his watch? Which one is more "accurate"? Far more to accuracy than the 'mere' reproduction of a given waveform. |
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pczach
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Post by pczach on Jan 7, 2021 18:32:54 GMT -5
Great job chops. Thank you for doing this comparison and taking the time to inform us of what you heard and your impressions. Your efforts are appreciated. For those of you ripping this guy for making an effort to post information to others: If you really want to do something constructive, do your own comparisons in your own rooms, with your own equipment, with any definitions of "balanced" you prefer, in a room with sound treatments you deem acceptable to you, using equipment that you feel is "reference", take measurements with various meters and computer printouts, spending your own money on the new equipment needed for the comparison, spend your time writing up a post with your impressions of the comparison.....or shut the hell up. If you are all so down on Emotiva gear or feel wronged in some way by the company, what the hell are you doing here? Go to the message boards of the makers of audiophile equipment that meet your rigid standards and have at it. This thread was started by chops to tell us HIS impressions and observation, not anyone else's. I just don't get why people here have to rain on everyone's parade and bring someone down if they don't have the same opinions of equipment or dispute the real world application to specifications of a product. If you don't agree based on your own experiences you are welcome to say so, but don't attempt to destroy a comparison test that was transparent and honest in his objectives to compare two pieces of equipment in his own system. If you didn't do a side-by-side comparison of the equipment discussed in this thread, then it is you who have no credibility on the subject. If you don't like the process or the outcome....create your own thread and put the time and effort in instead of trying to discredit any opinion that may be different than yours that was done in good faith. I don't care how much some of you think you know about all things audio. Your biases are bleeding through and no matter how hard you try to sound smarter than everyone else to belittle others, you come off as bitter, childish people that have to try to destroy any opinions that differ from your own and make someone else feel like crap to make you feel better about yourselves and validate your claims. In other words....grow up. People who need to tear down others to raise themselves up are insecure, weak, and pathetic. Your statement sounds like a cheap psychoanalysis of several complex people trying to make a point. Sounds about right??? No. It's about several complex trolls who would try to belittle another poster's comparison test to make a selfish point, who then get pissed when they are exposed because someone calls them on their bullshit. |
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Post by brutiarti on Jan 7, 2021 19:28:52 GMT -5
Your statement sounds like a cheap psychoanalysis of several complex people trying to make a point. Sounds about right??? No. It's about several complex trolls who would try to belittle another poster's comparison test to make a selfish point, who then get pissed when they are exposed because someone calls them on their bullshit. Sorry, but I’m calling your BS. Do you wanna feel like some savior that explains whats wrong with the world?  ? Or we should wait until you get drunk/agresive ?? |
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pczach
Emo VIPs
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Post by pczach on Jan 7, 2021 21:53:23 GMT -5
No. It's about several complex trolls who would try to belittle another poster's comparison test to make a selfish point, who then get pissed when they are exposed because someone calls them on their bullshit. Sorry, but I’m calling your BS. Do you wanna feel like some savior that explains whats wrong with the world? ? Or we should wait until you get drunk/agresive ?? There is no BS in what I'm saying in this thread. Others here feel the same way about the sarcastic, dipshit comments from people towards others to try to ruin their day or to hijack threads. I'm not trying to be a savior and never said I was. I'm sick of people that screw with other people for their own gratification. I don't have to explain what's wrong with the world here. People that like making others feel like sh** are obvious to everyone. I'm commenting on a message board about Emotiva audio/home theater equipment with mostly like-minded people just looking to learn, share information, and enjoy conversation about a subject they care about and enjoy. Some people here make that much harder to do, and a lot less likely. I'm just sick of it, and I'm sure many others are too. It's pretty simple. Some people enjoy acting like jerks and the rest of us don't like people that act like jerks to us or to other people. Don't say anything online that you wouldn't say to someone's face. Smartasses making comments sitting behind a keyboard making fun of someone or messing with someone are a joke. They're the only one's that don't seem to know it or don't care because they feel safe when running their mouths through their keyboards thousands of miles away from the people they are screwing with. Got it now? |
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Post by leonski on Jan 8, 2021 2:13:00 GMT -5
It is very simple, pczach.
all amplifiers are not tthe same into the same speakers even if they measure the same. I suspect we'd agree on that.
But when you use apeaker with very high reactance in the upper octave or so and an electrostatic, at that, you simply have difficulty comparing amp.
Not all amps are the same into the same reactive load. Some will fall flat, and others do well.
Keith minimizes this by not mentioning it at all and going with impedance. Sure, amps can interact with a load based on high output impedance but that's not the issue.
chops won't even discuss this. Or even come to the realization that like everyone else, his system is pretty much an artifact. IOW? Would my Magnepans do similar things with this same pair of amplifiers?
I think that chops has a valid input. but with the lmits of not be applicible to everyone. I owned a Rotel amp once that simply fell FLAT in my system. It lasted about 4 months from new to sold.
I'm not making 'fun' of anyone, but trying to help. And I'd say the same thing to your face. Or whoever I was speaking with. I have purged myself of anger. It doesn't get you anywhere.
Keith mentions accuracy as reproducing the waveform. Without any reference to a real load or real world speaker conditions. Try that with an old Apogee Scintilla dropping to 1 ohm or less. (yep....they sold 'em) or with an old big-box speaker with
very high internal damping and of extrememly high sensitivity. I have wishsed for a standardized Simulated Speaker with which to test amplifiers. While dozen are avaialble to be built, there is Zero agreement from amp builders about which to use.
Resistors are fun and help keep your room warm in winter AND can be compared between amplifiers, but don't have full agreeement with what you hear. That accuracy thing, again.
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pczach
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Posts: 343
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Post by pczach on Jan 8, 2021 6:29:57 GMT -5
It is very simple, pczach. all amplifiers are not tthe same into the same speakers even if they measure the same. I suspect we'd agree on that. But when you use apeaker with very high reactance in the upper octave or so and an electrostatic, at that, you simply have difficulty comparing amp. Not all amps are the same into the same reactive load. Some will fall flat, and others do well. Keith minimizes this by not mentioning it at all and going with impedance. Sure, amps can interact with a load based on high output impedance but that's not the issue. chops won't even discuss this. Or even come to the realization that like everyone else, his system is pretty much an artifact. IOW? Would my Magnepans do similar things with this same pair of amplifiers? I think that chops has a valid input. but with the lmits of not be applicible to everyone. I owned a Rotel amp once that simply fell FLAT in my system. It lasted about 4 months from new to sold. I'm not making 'fun' of anyone, but trying to help. And I'd say the same thing to your face. Or whoever I was speaking with. I have purged myself of anger. It doesn't get you anywhere. Keith mentions accuracy as reproducing the waveform. Without any reference to a real load or real world speaker conditions. Try that with an old Apogee Scintilla dropping to 1 ohm or less. (yep....they sold 'em) or with an old big-box speaker with very high internal damping and of extrememly high sensitivity. I have wishsed for a standardized Simulated Speaker with which to test amplifiers. While dozen are avaialble to be built, there is Zero agreement from amp builders about which to use. Resistors are fun and help keep your room warm in winter AND can be compared between amplifiers, but don't have full agreeement with what you hear. That accuracy thing, again. Nobody cares about your numbers or your explanations of why you are giving chops a hard time. A few of you decided that you were going to give someone crap for simply doing his own comparison test. You should be able to take it for what it is and thank him for the effort and the information. If it didn't do it for you, do your own test. I'm not mucking this thread up anymore. Just think about this for a second. What if everyone that is thinking about sharing information about their own comparison's tests is reading this thread, but don't want to go through the anal exam of a few members that will find a way to criticize anything for a variety of reasons. Why would anyone want to put themselves through that? If you want a professional review....pay for a subscription, read one online, or conduct one yourself. The whole idea of this place is for people to share info, discuss Emotiva equipment, and enjoy themselves with people that want to do the same. Tearing apart someone's comparison test when they are open about not being a professional is certainly not going to encourage anyone to waste their time to do it again....and it's rude. If you don't understand that, that's on you. |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 8, 2021 10:48:16 GMT -5
OMG y'all....  |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Jan 8, 2021 11:01:19 GMT -5
This thread is a prime example of the decline of this forum.
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Post by adaboy on Jan 8, 2021 11:16:27 GMT -5
It is very simple, pczach. all amplifiers are not tthe same into the same speakers even if they measure the same. I suspect we'd agree on that. But when you use apeaker with very high reactance in the upper octave or so and an electrostatic, at that, you simply have difficulty comparing amp. Not all amps are the same into the same reactive load. Some will fall flat, and others do well. Keith minimizes this by not mentioning it at all and going with impedance. Sure, amps can interact with a load based on high output impedance but that's not the issue. chops won't even discuss this. Or even come to the realization that like everyone else, his system is pretty much an artifact. IOW? Would my Magnepans do similar things with this same pair of amplifiers? I think that chops has a valid input. but with the lmits of not be applicible to everyone. I owned a Rotel amp once that simply fell FLAT in my system. It lasted about 4 months from new to sold. I'm not making 'fun' of anyone, but trying to help. And I'd say the same thing to your face. Or whoever I was speaking with. I have purged myself of anger. It doesn't get you anywhere. Keith mentions accuracy as reproducing the waveform. Without any reference to a real load or real world speaker conditions. Try that with an old Apogee Scintilla dropping to 1 ohm or less. (yep....they sold 'em) or with an old big-box speaker with very high internal damping and of extrememly high sensitivity. I have wishsed for a standardized Simulated Speaker with which to test amplifiers. While dozen are avaialble to be built, there is Zero agreement from amp builders about which to use. Resistors are fun and help keep your room warm in winter AND can be compared between amplifiers, but don't have full agreeement with what you hear. That accuracy thing, again. Nobody cares about your numbers or your explanations of why you are giving chops a hard time. A few of you decided that you were going to give someone crap for simply doing his own comparison test. You should be able to take it for what it is and thank him for the effort and the information. If it didn't do it for you, do your own test. I'm not mucking this thread up anymore. Just think about this for a second. What if everyone that is thinking about sharing information about their own comparison's tests is reading this thread, but don't want to go through the anal exam of a few members that will find a way to criticize anything for a variety of reasons. Why would anyone want to put themselves through that? If you want a professional review....pay for a subscription, read one online, or conduct one yourself. The whole idea of this place is for people to share info, discuss Emotiva equipment, and enjoy themselves with people that want to do the same. Tearing apart someone's comparison test when they are open about not being a professional is certainly not going to encourage anyone to waste their time to do it again....and it's rude. If you don't understand that, that's on you. Plus 💯 👍 |
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