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Post by leonski on Jan 13, 2021 16:51:41 GMT -5
Some discussion recently around here on the subject of accuracy. Here from the Linkwitz Labs people is kind of a summary of their conclusions. www.linkwitzlab.com/conclusions.htmKeep in mind that this is the company that makes the well regarded ORION Open Baffle system and others. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 14, 2021 14:43:08 GMT -5
this isn't conclusive, but sure indicates that MOST are not overly concerned with 'accuracy'. whatever that means to any particular person.
Home Theater is, IMO particularly prone to this since NOBODY has any idea what most of the 'effects' actually sound like. That's Fine.
I don't know a single critical listener of such effects laden movies. My particular favorite? The 2004 movie, SEABISCUIT which had an incredible
sound montage of the horses heartbeat set over an all-out run. They did NOT win the Oscar.....too bad!
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Post by mauriceminor on Jan 14, 2021 18:41:53 GMT -5
I currently have system in 3 rooms and the shop
Linkwitz LX Mini
Linkwitz Pluto / Watson
A/D/S L1290
Polk LSi9
While I enjoy listening to the box speakers the Linkwitz designs come quite a bit closer to live music
A former neighbor, a cellist and also a sound reinforcement tech 'back in the day' is in agreement
Enjoyable and revealing recordings:
Arturo Delmoni Performs Bach, Kreisler, and Ysaye
Belafonte at Carnegie Hall
Bill Evans Another Time The Hilversum Concert
Bill Evans Trio Waltz for Debbie
Leonard Cohn Live in London
Pentangle Sweet Child
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Post by leonski on Jan 14, 2021 19:10:31 GMT -5
Open Baffle would be a wonderful if somewhat $$$ experiment. I wouldn't know where to go for an audition.
I don't know when or where your ADS speakers were made, but I heard the German LV1020 a LONG time ago.
These were active speakers with 3x amplifiers built-in. A real achievement. I couldn't afford 'em then...or probably now.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Jan 14, 2021 19:33:41 GMT -5
“Accuracy” or “natural sounding” is what Revel claim to try to achieve.
I’m not sure what everyone’s goals are but mine is to have the best sounding system I can afford and focus on value products.
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 14, 2021 22:29:29 GMT -5
“Accuracy” or “natural sounding” is what Revel claim to try to achieve. I’m not sure what everyone’s goals are but mine is to have the best sounding system I can afford and focus on value products. Value products are as subjective as music listening itself. A value product for me is a $500 speaker that can compete with a $5K speaker. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Jan 14, 2021 22:44:20 GMT -5
“Accuracy” or “natural sounding” is what Revel claim to try to achieve. I’m not sure what everyone’s goals are but mine is to have the best sounding system I can afford and focus on value products. Value products are as subjective as music listening itself. A value product for me is a $500 speaker that can compete with a $5K speaker. Agreed. The XMC2 is a good example of value product. It’s the lowest priced 16 channel processor with Dirac. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 14, 2021 23:13:35 GMT -5
“Accuracy” or “natural sounding” is what Revel claim to try to achieve. I’m not sure what everyone’s goals are but mine is to have the best sounding system I can afford and focus on value products. Value products are as subjective as music listening itself. A value product for me is a $500 speaker that can compete with a $5K speaker. Cynics, like myself, figure that IF a speaker plays like 5000$, it'll cost 5000$ But, I WILL agree with the idea of subjective. Lsc sort of begged the question. HE knows what he means but nobody else has any idea of his musical reproduction values or what he looks for. |
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Post by mauriceminor on Jan 14, 2021 23:31:15 GMT -5
Open Baffle would be a wonderful if somewhat $$$ experiment. I wouldn't know where to go for an audition. I don't know when or where your ADS speakers were made, but I heard the German LV1020 a LONG time ago. These were active speakers with 3x amplifiers built-in. A real achievement. I couldn't afford 'em then...or probably now. A/D/S speakers were built by Braun in the the Fatherland Some of the A/D/S principals later went on to form Ariel Acoustics L1290 : 3/4" soft dome tweeter, 2" soft dome mid range, twin 8" woofers There is an area in the bottom of the towers to add two 50 watt amps in each speaker After replacing 200 watt UPA 1 mono bloc's with 500 watt XPA 1 mono bloc's they really came alive I bought mine from the original owner for $400, cartons and all in 2004, built about 20 years earlier Superior to my Klipsch La Scala's that they replaced - I cannot see replacing them I also had a pair of L810's, now in one of my nephew's systems A google search will show a plethora of information |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Jan 14, 2021 23:54:33 GMT -5
Value products are as subjective as music listening itself. A value product for me is a $500 speaker that can compete with a $5K speaker. Cynics, like myself, figure that IF a speaker plays like 5000$, it'll cost 5000$ But, I WILL agree with the idea of subjective. Lsc sort of begged the question. HE knows what he means but nobody else has any idea of his musical reproduction values or what he looks for. What I look for in a system is rather simple - I’m kind of a simpleton when it comes to audio gear. Growing up poor but loving the sound of high end audio (especially in college), my goal was to get a sound system at my house that sounded as good as the system in the “big room” at the old traditional high end stores. So taking speakers as an example, this varied from the B&W 802, Revel Studios, Ariel Acoustics 10T, Dunlavy SC IV etc etc., and its associated equipment. There were stuff even more expensive but those were never in the cards. I recall how good things sounded at those stores and when I came home, my system was clearly not as good. Even when I bought my Revel F208 which was my first “high end” purchase, the sound I heard at the store when I tested them was superior. Well the store had McIntosh amps and pre/pro vs my Emotiva XPA5 and UMC200. Then with those stores all dying a slow death, I used Axpona as a place to set my barometer. I know the setups aren’t the best possible in those hotel rooms but when you listen some of those speakers, it still sounds amazing to me. So I don’t look for how something is reproduced bc I’ve never been to a symphony and my last concert was when Billy Joel and U2 were popular way back when. Hopefully this example sums up what I tried to achieve and the good news is that I feel like I’m close enough now. There is still a lot other gear out there better and waaay more expensive but when I go to my man cave and put on music or whatever, I’m still very impressed with how everything sounds. I feel Norah Jones is singing to me in my room - that’s all I can ask for, right? If that’s accuracy, then great! If it’s just a really good sounding system, I’ll take that. |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 15, 2021 0:40:26 GMT -5
“Accuracy” or “natural sounding” is what Revel claim to try to achieve. I’m not sure what everyone’s goals are but mine is to have the best sounding system I can afford and focus on value products. Value products are as subjective as music listening itself. A value product for me is a $500 speaker that can compete with a $5K speaker. You found one? What was it? $500 is very hard to make it reach that high. I could see something in the 1k to 2k range competing with stuff 5k and up. |
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 15, 2021 10:30:09 GMT -5
Value products are as subjective as music listening itself. A value product for me is a $500 speaker that can compete with a $5K speaker. You found one? What was it? $500 is very hard to make it reach that high. I could see something in the 1k to 2k range competing with stuff 5k and up. Yes it would be very hard to accomplish even as a DIY speaker. |
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Post by DYohn on Jan 15, 2021 11:22:29 GMT -5
From a technical perspective, "accuracy" means signal in = signal out, with the least amount of distortion (noise, harmonics, etc.) added. From an audiophile perspective, "accuracy" = "it sounds like what I think it should sound like" which is completely subjective. So, IMO, choose equipment with technical accuracy, but build your system in whatever way is necessary to achieve your version of listening accuracy.  |
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Post by KeithL on Jan 15, 2021 12:20:19 GMT -5
Part of the problem with defining this is that, when it comes to speakers, price is simply not a good indicator of accuracy or sound quality.
There are some relatively low cost speakers that are incredibly good... And there are some incredibly expensive speakers that don't sound good at all... And, yes, some of that comes down to "we all have different tastes in speakers"... But some of it also comes down to "some people seem to care about fancy veneer, or outrageous looking designs, more than sound quality"... There are some really beautiful, superbly finished, cool looking speakers out there that just plain sound bad...
There are also some speakers that can sound good... but only if you put them in a fifty foot square room with thirty foot ceilings.
The main issue with DIY speakers is the cost of parts... Sure, you can build a really nice cabinet at little cost, if you happen to be good with wood... And that makes for a great deal... if the alternative is an expensive commercial speaker with a fancy cabinet.
And it's nice to suggest that "if you build it yourself you can avoid a lot of markups"...
And that "if you do your own calculations, or build according to someone else's plans, you avoid the development costs"... However the simple reality is that, as a DIY builder, buying just a few of something, you pay a LOT more for the individual parts than manufacturers do...
And, also, to be brutally honest, DIY builders often spend a lot more than they should on fancy parts that simply DO NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. As with any build-type project there is a temptation for "parts creep"... buying "a little more expensive coil" or "better wire" or "premium capacitors"...
The problem is that many of those things really don't matter... and the costs can and do add up...
(And, again, to be honest, many audiophiles have little idea which things really do matter and which ones don't.)
And, while sometimes you may have the opportunity to buy really premium parts... Sometimes those parts aren't really more premium at all... even though they cost you a lot more. For example... when we put a woofer inside a box we don't have to spend money on a fancy paint job to make the back side of the magnet look pretty. But, when you buy that same driver from a parts store, with an impressive price tag on it, you can bet they painted the back up real nice... And guess who ends up paying for the fancy paint job that nobody will see once it's installed in the box...
As an end user you would be lucky to find the parts that make up one of our B1+, or parts that are truly equivalent, for what we sell the finished speaker for... And the same holds true for most of our other current models...
You found one? What was it? $500 is very hard to make it reach that high. I could see something in the 1k to 2k range competing with stuff 5k and up. Yes it would be very hard to accomplish even as a DIY speaker. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 15, 2021 14:41:03 GMT -5
Speakers, IMO, continue to be the weak link and most subjective of all components.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jan 15, 2021 15:09:15 GMT -5
Speakers, IMO, continue to be the weak link and most subjective of all components. I call speakers the strongest part of any system as they are by far the most powerful in terms of "what you hear." So rather then the weak link, I would call them the user's strongest tool for creating a pleasing soundspace. |
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Post by DYohn on Jan 15, 2021 15:13:45 GMT -5
And by the way, as a long-time loudspeaker designer and a DIY enthusiast, I cannot agree more with Keith's post above. Whenever I hear DIY'ers say things like, "I built a system for $29.95 that compares to a $10,000 system!" I laugh, shake my head, and know that person likely does not know what they are talking about. DIY is for people like me who like to experiment or create a particular effect or impact from a loudspeaker system. It is not for someone trying to save money or time or who thinks they can "do it better for less." You can't.
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Post by brutiarti on Jan 15, 2021 15:48:42 GMT -5
Well, IMO speaker aesthetics is an important factor. They need to sound and look good (to my taste of course). Emotiva speakers have an Ok look in general terms. They do sound really good so I think they are considered a really good buy. On the other hand, I heard gorgeous speakers aesthetically but with a sound that the price tag puts them in the “hell no” category. Best sounding speakers IMO omnidirectional MBL. I like the industrial look but probably not for everybody.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jan 15, 2021 16:34:57 GMT -5
Best sounding speakers IMO omnidirectional MBL. I like the industrial look but probably not for everybody. As I have said on this forum before, if I had the money and the listening room to handle them, I would own MBL. |
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Post by audiobill on Jan 16, 2021 9:32:42 GMT -5
IMO, the speaker and its intended room could be thought of as one component.
Start with those nice linear graphs, if you choose to, but understand that the in-room response will in the majority of cases be dramatically different.
And, at the end of the day, most people don’t even like a flat in-room response, as well documented by Harman and B&K.
Ultimately, personal preference rules. Root canal or massage. Your choice and your $$$.
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