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Post by jasonf on Feb 8, 2021 2:03:09 GMT -5
I've run a litany of Emotiva amps over the years, but at the moment I'm running a XPA-DR2 + RMC-1L setup. My best friend has a pair of XPA-1 monoblocks. We've been meaning to compare for a while, but finally did so tonight. For those that don't remember, the XPA-1 Gen 2 was a special animal in the lineup. Unlike the rest of the Gen 2 lineup, the XPA-1 was limited, fully differential, and ran in pure class-A at low wattage. It also hit 1000 watts @ 4 ohms. I've always just kind of assumed that the XPA-DR2 was better, being a more modern amp. I'm not so convinced after tonight. Setup:I took my amp to his house, so the setup was: B&W 803 D2 Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre/pro (For anyone that doesn't know this processor, it was a legendary beast with fully differential DACs, analog path, and power supply. It retailed for $7,500 in the early 2000s - not your typical Denon.) Listening:We started with the XPA-1 monoblocks, then went to the XPA-DR2, then back to the XPA-1 monoblocks to verify our observations. We used hi-res tracks via Amazon Music. Our sample material was: * Radiohead - Daydreaming * Daft Punk - Solar Sailor * Future - Mask Off (the bass track) * Tame Impala - The Less I Know the Better He also had a couple of other tracks I don't remember  Observations:I'm surprised to say that the voicing between the balanced XPA Gen2 and XPA Gen3s was quite different. One of the things that we've always agreed on is that the B&W 803s have the ability to resolve a ton of detail in the bass. Solar Sailor for example has a lot of detail in a step down section where it lowers an octave in each segment of stepping down to a tune of "dun-dun-dun-dun-dunnnnnnnnnnnn". With the Gen2, the bass is extremely focused and resolved. Each "step" of lowering the octave is very forward and resolved. I was a little disappointed when we switched over to the Gen3 to realize the lack of separation in those octaves of bass. It's not that the Gen2 DR-2 sounded worse, it was just way more laid back, and present the differences in bass in kind of a "meh" way. The XPA-1 Gen2 won the bass battle IMO. Next we switched over to Radiohead, "Daydreaming". We had a debate over this, but I immediately felt like the Gen3 DR-2 brought a lot more "sparkle" and sound stage the piano segment one minute into the track. It seemed way cleaner, and the track was much more focused on the music than the "static" track in the background. We had a debate over the DR-2 sounding better vs losing detail. However, overall to me, the DR-2 excelled in this segment. Wrap-up:While I felt like the Gen3 DR-2 was overall slightly more articulate at the high end, the Gen2 XPA-1 absolutely was the champion with clear, resolute bass sections. The XPA-1 is so much more tight, and it feels like maybe the capacitance and dampening factor are really able to keep these big speakers under tight tight tight control. With the DR-2, it felt like the response was a lot slower and I was getting a slower pulse out of the mid/bass speakers. I would say that the overall presentation was a tad less high-end-articualte. In Solar Sailer you could feel every single note of the step-down, but on the DR-2 it all kind of mushed together. Conversely, the DR-2 had greater competency at the high end frequencies, creating a larger sound stand and more interesting presentation. For example with both "Daydreaming" and "The Less I Know the Better", the string were way more articulate, but th over-all track still didn't stand up to the mono block. ===== Given all this, I'm not sure where to go next. I'm thinking about going with DR-1s for my mains, or bi-amping my mains, or switching to different amps all together. I'd love to hear if others have examples with this, but I will say... the XPA-1 Gen2 is a monster. |
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Post by leonski on Feb 8, 2021 3:11:46 GMT -5
B&W, especially the 800 series are not the easiest to drive. I don't care TOO much about impedance, but rather reactance. How much of a capacitor or inductor does the speaker Appear to be at any particular frequency?
It may be that the XPA-1 is simply better into such a load. DF is sort of a red herring. And I'll bet $$ to Donuts that it is lower than you'd expect. Add in speaker wire and those pesky crossovers and DF can drop to a more realistic 50 or so, in a metric heartbeat.
If you want something which MAY or MAY NOT be better, you may end up OUT of the EMO system. Try Parasound? Or McCormack? Even a used Pass or Sanders Magtech. Bryston is on the table, too.....
So you have many choices.
I'd expect for those of deep pocket? The Parasound JC-1 would show very well in ANY company. But they are $$$.
Read up on biamp. It is not 'the miracle cure' some think. Each amp continues to swing the entire frequency band / voltage so the gain is minimal. The cure is an Active Line Level crossover but THAT is an incredible can of worms not for the faint of heart.
And when I suggested this to another 'reviewer' I was Blasted. Another different set of speakers may highlight the differences between amps. Might reverse the decision or just show some light on your conclusions.
Good Job........
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Post by tropicallutefisk on Feb 8, 2021 7:59:07 GMT -5
Interesting comparison. Thanks for sharing your observations. I have not compared my DR1s against any other Emo amp except the XPA 1L on my center. In that case the DR1 outclassed the 1L. Not by a lot, but it was a noticeable improvement especially in the higher frequencies. Mids and lows were comparable. Overall, I feel the DR1 is smoother and clearer in this application. For my mains, I've run a Rotel RMB 1075 and a McIntosh 152. The DR1 was a significant improvement over both of those. However, it took some tweaking. I found I had to change my speaker placement to overcome what I would call a mid bass muddiness and sharp highs. What was great for the McIntosh was not so great for the DR1. Also, I'm using a half ohm resistor to tame the ribbon a bit and I had to pull apart the mains a bit and pull further forward to eliminate that muddiness. Now I'm quite happy with their performance. Not sure what I'd replace them with if I'm ever allowed to get upgraditis. I've heard Ayre sound excellent with Maggies and many suggest Bryston. However, both are significantly higher in price. Probably the next best option for Maggies would be ATI. I've heard the 6002 run 0.7 Maggies and it sounded incredible.
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 8, 2021 8:48:38 GMT -5
It may be that the XPA-1 is simply better into such a load. And the better comparison would be XPA-1 vs. DR-1, not the DR-2, especially for a difficult load. |
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Post by routlaw on Feb 8, 2021 13:46:34 GMT -5
And the better comparison would be XPA-1 vs. DR-1, not the DR-2, especially for a difficult load. I agree, in some ways an apples to oranges comparison mostly. The specs are quite a bit different, then there's no denying the benefit of mono blocs compared to a stereo amp with noticeably less power output. Regardless an interesting and worthwhile comparison though. |
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Post by garbulky on Feb 8, 2021 13:47:33 GMT -5
I am not surprised by your impressions. However, I did find it interesting that you thought the treble was better. My main complaint about the single blade gen 3 was that I thought the treble and mid range was worse.
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Post by routlaw on Feb 8, 2021 13:54:33 GMT -5
I am not surprised by your impressions. However, I did find it interesting that you thought the treble was better. My main complaint about the single blade gen 3 was that I thought the treble and mid range was worse. Please understand the DR series are a bit different than just the basic "gen 3" amps. That said having owned a pair of XPA-1 Gen 2 for some 6 years and now have had the DR-1's for a little over a year there really is nothing I miss about the Gen 2 amps. I also have the DR-3 running center and two rears which replace the XPA-3 Gen 2 and again there is nothing I miss about the older amp compared to the DR-3. No doubt there are others who might, or will disagree with my assessments. |
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Post by jasonf on Feb 8, 2021 13:55:55 GMT -5
Thanks for the thoughts -- I'm considering picking up a pair of DR-1s, I just cringe at the idea of having two huge, mostly empty cases in my relatively space constrained media stand. I'm also debating giving something Purifi based a go, although I know they have lower total output.
Wow, I wish I had as much space as you!
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Post by leonski on Feb 8, 2021 13:56:13 GMT -5
As harsh as I may come off, it is STILL good data.
Look at what Gar wrote! Are the comparisons of the amp impressions based iin some part on the SPEAKER......?
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Post by tropicallutefisk on Feb 8, 2021 14:18:16 GMT -5
As harsh as I may come off, it is STILL good data. Look at what Gar wrote! Are the comparisons of the amp impressions based iin some part on the SPEAKER......? That's what I was wondering as well. In my case, it was a matter of mostly tweaking room placement. However, I could also see the poster having a compatibility issue. Some amps and some speakers just don't gel. I've learned this lesson the hard way. A great pair of speakers and a great amp do not always play great music together. |
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Post by routlaw on Feb 8, 2021 14:20:48 GMT -5
Thanks for the thoughts -- I'm considering picking up a pair of DR-1s, I just cringe at the idea of having two huge, mostly empty cases in my relatively space constrained media stand. I'm also debating giving something Purifi based a go, although I know they have lower total output. Wow, I wish I had as much space as you! Its really not that large, 12.5 feet x 22 feet room. It is a dedicated HT/Hifi room however so it doesn't have to serve multifunctional purposes. Agreed though, its at least one extra black box but a heck of a lot lighter in weight. |
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Post by jasonf on Feb 8, 2021 14:27:16 GMT -5
A great pair of speakers and a great amp do not always play great music together. Agreed. In my case, I run B&W 804 D3s at home, so I'm going to consider that close enough to the test environment to make decisions for my own setup Thanks for the thoughts -- I'm considering picking up a pair of DR-1s, I just cringe at the idea of having two huge, mostly empty cases in my relatively space constrained media stand. I'm also debating giving something Purifi based a go, although I know they have lower total output. Wow, I wish I had as much space as you! Its really not that large, 12.5 feet x 22 feet room. It is a dedicated HT/Hifi room however so it doesn't have to serve multifunctional purposes. Agreed though, its at least one extra black box but a heck of a lot lighter in weight. I have a media stand under my TV that can, at most, accommodate two XPA-sized amps. I'm currently running an A-500 for center/surround duty given my space constraints. |
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Post by garbulky on Feb 8, 2021 16:10:20 GMT -5
B&W, especially the 800 series are not the easiest to drive. I don't care TOO much about impedance, but rather reactance. How much of a capacitor or inductor does the speaker Appear to be at any particular frequency? It may be that the XPA-1 is simply better into such a load. DF is sort of a red herring. And I'll bet $$ to Donuts that it is lower than you'd expect. Add in speaker wire and those pesky crossovers and DF can drop to a more realistic 50 or so, in a metric heartbeat. If you want something which MAY or MAY NOT be better, you may end up OUT of the EMO system. Try Parasound? Or McCormack? Even a used Pass or Sanders Magtech. Bryston is on the table, too..... So you have many choices. I'd expect for those of deep pocket? The Parasound JC-1 would show very well in ANY company. But they are $$$. Read up on biamp. It is not 'the miracle cure' some think. Each amp continues to swing the entire frequency band / voltage so the gain is minimal. The cure is an Active Line Level crossover but THAT is an incredible can of worms not for the faint of heart. And when I suggested this to another 'reviewer' I was Blasted. Another different set of speakers may highlight the differences between amps. Might reverse the decision or just show some light on your conclusions. Good Job........ There's certainly the issue of different speakers producing different results. Now...the single blade xpa-2 GEN 3 (not the double blade differential DR-2) was tried with a variety of speakers so I can say that at least in that environment the amp was sounding that way. But then again, signal measurements show that we should be hard pressed to hear any difference at all in almost all amps. |
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Post by leonski on Feb 8, 2021 19:58:54 GMT -5
I TEND to believe my ears before 'measurements'. One smart guy I knew said that everything that can be heard can't be measured and that everything that can be measured can't be heard. But when you DO hear differences, your task is to figure out WHY? Actually a test (measurable) exists where an amp is put under load. With swings from capacitive to inductive. (measured in DEGREES) Good amps will maintain voltage well from swing to swing while poor amps, like those generally found in HT receivers may perform poorly..... It is called 'Power Cube' system. But not much actual buy-in from manufacturers who depend on 'sizzle' not necessarily measurable performance. www.audiograph.se/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/PowerCube_12p_brochure_complete.pdf |
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 8, 2021 21:07:01 GMT -5
I TEND to believe my ears before 'measurements'. One smart guy I knew said that everything that can be heard can't be measured and that everything that can be measured can't be heard. Ha. When the Amir-ites stormed this forum because the RMC-1 had a certain bad measurement spike, they insisted you can't trust your ears. Of course when Emo found the cause and fixed it, no one could hear a difference either way and poof, they just disappeared as fast as they came. They weren't happy if the sound improved, they were happy it measured better. |
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Post by jasonf on Feb 8, 2021 21:39:28 GMT -5
For what it's worth, Amir's 2nd review of the RMC-1 is what got me to jump on it Overall, it sounds excellent. Anyways, I was having some more amp comparison fun tonight and decided to put my mains on my A-500. I'm confused and fascinated. Compared to the DR2, the A-500 sounds "flat" but the bass is quite a bit more thumpy. The DR2 is a whole different world of detail, sound stage, and clarity... but at low/mid volumes you'd probably never know without doing a back-to-back. (High volumes are a different issue, the A-500 falls apart and gets flabby on the 804s.) I made a rough analogy to the A-500 being like listening to your friends garage band standing next to the drummer and bass guitarist. The DR2 is a bit more like being at the symphony and knowing that someone, somewhere in there has a bass instrument. My take away is that the DR series amps aren't quite focused on the bass authority of some of the older amps. I haven't run room correction on my RMC-1 yet, and I'm guessing that with a little bit of EQ will get things closer to where I like them. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 8, 2021 21:51:33 GMT -5
Interesting comparison. Thanks for sharing your observations. I have not compared my DR1s against any other Emo amp except the XPA 1L on my center. In that case the DR1 outclassed the 1L. Not by a lot, but it was a noticeable improvement especially in the higher frequencies. Mids and lows were comparable. Overall, I feel the DR1 is smoother and clearer in this application. For my mains, I've run a Rotel RMB 1075 and a McIntosh 152. The DR1 was a significant improvement over both of those. However, it took some tweaking. I found I had to change my speaker placement to overcome what I would call a mid bass muddiness and sharp highs. What was great for the McIntosh was not so great for the DR1. Also, I'm using a half ohm resistor to tame the ribbon a bit and I had to pull apart the mains a bit and pull further forward to eliminate that muddiness. Now I'm quite happy with their performance. Not sure what I'd replace them with if I'm ever allowed to get upgraditis. I've heard Ayre sound excellent with Maggies and many suggest Bryston. However, both are significantly higher in price. Probably the next best option for Maggies would be ATI. I've heard the 6002 run 0.7 Maggies and it sounded incredible. Just want to second your ATI 6002 amp thought. I just picked up the 6003 last weekend to replace my 4003. Just a quick background, I have gone thru the gamut of Emotiva amps starting with the XPA5 gen1, XPA2 gen2, XPR5 and finally XPR2. As one could predict, the XPR2 was the best of the lot followed by the XPR5. The 4003 easily bests the XPR2. Much cleaner, faster etc, just a more high end sounding amp whatever that means. I don’t know if the 4003 being fully balanced contributed to this but regardless, I am sold on the ATI signature amps. The 6003 takes the good from the 4003 had takes up a notch to a whole new level. The dynamics is unbelievable. So I don’t know if it has anything to do with the synergy but when I swapped out the 4003 with the 6003, I felt like I got new speakers...one that images better and has dynamics and bass response where I feel like my speakers are going to explode. It’s the best way I can describe it. Also I think most of us on the emo forums care about value. Both of those ATI amps are well worth it (no one pays retail FYI). I was going to sell my 4003 but I think I’ll send it in to get more channels and keep em both. At this point, I have no plans to ever replace these amps. |
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Post by garbulky on Feb 8, 2021 22:47:01 GMT -5
For what it's worth, Amir's 2nd review of the RMC-1 is what got me to jump on it Overall, it sounds excellent. Anyways, I was having some more amp comparison fun tonight and decided to put my mains on my A-500. I'm confused and fascinated. Compared to the DR2, the A-500 sounds "flat" but the bass is quite a bit more thumpy. The DR2 is a whole different world of detail, sound stage, and clarity... but at low/mid volumes you'd probably never know without doing a back-to-back. (High volumes are a different issue, the A-500 falls apart and gets flabby on the 804s.) I made a rough analogy to the A-500 being like listening to your friends garage band standing next to the drummer and bass guitarist. The DR2 is a bit more like being at the symphony and knowing that someone, somewhere in there has a bass instrument. My take away is that the DR series amps aren't quite focused on the bass authority of some of the older amps. I haven't run room correction on my RMC-1 yet, and I'm guessing that with a little bit of EQ will get things closer to where I like them. What’s second review? |
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Post by jasonf on Feb 8, 2021 23:09:15 GMT -5
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Post by leonski on Feb 8, 2021 23:13:08 GMT -5
For what it's worth, Amir's 2nd review of the RMC-1 is what got me to jump on it Overall, it sounds excellent. Anyways, I was having some more amp comparison fun tonight and decided to put my mains on my A-500. I'm confused and fascinated. Compared to the DR2, the A-500 sounds "flat" but the bass is quite a bit more thumpy. The DR2 is a whole different world of detail, sound stage, and clarity... but at low/mid volumes you'd probably never know without doing a back-to-back. (High volumes are a different issue, the A-500 falls apart and gets flabby on the 804s.) I made a rough analogy to the A-500 being like listening to your friends garage band standing next to the drummer and bass guitarist. The DR2 is a bit more like being at the symphony and knowing that someone, somewhere in there has a bass instrument. My take away is that the DR series amps aren't quite focused on the bass authority of some of the older amps. I haven't run room correction on my RMC-1 yet, and I'm guessing that with a little bit of EQ will get things closer to where I like them. Here's the measured data for the B&W 804. You can see it is not the easiest load. And the A500 is not the most 4ohm capable. www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-amp-wilkins-804-diamond-loudspeaker-measurementsBetter watts not more would be indicated. |
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