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Post by audiobill on Jun 23, 2021 21:17:15 GMT -5
I’ve built over 100. Piece of cake if you can solder.
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 23, 2021 21:26:34 GMT -5
In some ways, Carver is the ultimate snakeoil. Interesting that a Carver acolyte calls out others as such! Lookin’ at you, 405. I dunno 🤷……over 44 years I’ve run (solid state) Carver Amps. His early “Blaze Linear” reputation may have been deserved. After Phase and into “Carver” everything hinged on those “magnetic field” amplifiers being relatively bulletproof compared to P.L….and he was successful I believe. Didn’t follow the “Silver Seven” and all the tube rest perhaps that’s where you’re going?? I’ve heard much talk about B.C. but snake oil salesman wasn’t part of him that I know of….anyone? |
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Post by audiobill on Jun 23, 2021 21:33:13 GMT -5
Easy, just google Bob Carver snakeoil.
Lots to munch on.
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 23, 2021 21:37:34 GMT -5
“You know? Every time I'm in a Large Crowd.....like hundreds or more persons, I look around and realize that 1/2 of everybody I'm looking at is Below Average. “ Ummmm…..OK! (If you say so)! |
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ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Jun 23, 2021 21:49:31 GMT -5
leonski I bought the M-125 kits which took about 10 hours to build the first amp, and a little less for the second one. If I buy more I'd still get the kits because I enjoy the building of them so much. I started with the higher power setting, Ultralinear, but switched to half power Triode Mode and never went back to Ultralinear. Then I went from KT-88 to KT-120 tubes which I now favor. I bought both types of rectifiers, tube and solid state, and like the Weber WZ68 solid state rectifier better. When the amps were new I was only using two tubes for the initial tests and quickly installed the second pair in each amp, but lately I've been wanting to try them with just a pair to see how they do.
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 23, 2021 21:59:57 GMT -5
“Easy, just google Bob Carver snakeoil. Lots to munch on.” Bill! ….that’s a GREAT idea. My Phase Linear didn’t flame out. 11 years of great service and I was tough on it back in the day. My 1.0t’s 1988 and sold in 2003 perfect condition for 350.00 each (2) Sunfire Signature 2001 until this moment PERFECT and counting.…..Time for me to Jump on Google and get educated about Bob. Oh I am CERTAIN my 44 plus years of satisfaction with Bobs Stuff will be upended by GOOGLE |
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Post by leonski on Jun 23, 2021 23:40:08 GMT -5
Bob consistently came up with 'novel' and createive names for his circuits. Some more innovative than others.
Sonic Hologram? I always wanted to try that! Asymmetrical Charge Coupled FM Detector? come again?
T mod made sense if you knew some of the Backstory. While That tracking downconverter PS (not UP?) was pretty neat.
My cube had 2 or 3 rails, the top one running at 70 or 75 volts. Class G or perhaps Class H.....
If 405 had the PL 400? Probably should consider himself LUCKY it didn't go ballistic. I've seen fix-it kits for retrofit to the couple dozen which survived......
I heard some of the big PL amps....I think there was also a 700, at Pacific Stereo in Whittier CA. driving some Bose 901s........which they'd hung frm the ceiling....
Bob later LOST Phase Linear in his Divorce. Company was sold and I guess simply later destroyed.
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Post by LuisV on Jun 24, 2021 8:47:43 GMT -5
On a side note, any experience with Primaluna? I've heard nothing but good things about their gear.. I have never owned anything from Primaluna and have only heard them at trade shows. Pretty highly regarded. Thanks! |
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 24, 2021 9:58:05 GMT -5
Bob consistently came up with 'novel' and createive names for his circuits. Some more innovative than others. Sonic Hologram? I always wanted to try that! Asymmetrical Charge Coupled FM Detector? come again? T mod made sense if you knew some of the Backstory. While That tracking downconverter PS (not UP?) was pretty neat. My cube had 2 or 3 rails, the top one running at 70 or 75 volts. Class G or perhaps Class H..... If 405 had the PL 400? Probably should consider himself LUCKY it didn't go ballistic. I've seen fix-it kits for retrofit to the couple dozen which survived...... I heard some of the big PL amps....I think there was also a 700, at Pacific Stereo in Whittier CA. driving some Bose 901s........which they'd hung frm the ceiling.... Bob later LOST Phase Linear in his Divorce. Company was sold and I guess simply later destroyed. The 400 yes and it DID blow but….it took 11 years of hard driving service to do so. And yes lots of funky names there for the Carver “creations”. The Cube was out there shortly after the death ☠️ of my 400 but I went with the 1.0t’s instead for their bridged rating |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 24, 2021 10:55:50 GMT -5
Easy, just google Bob Carver snakeoil. Lots to munch on. It's amazing how some people throw the snake oil label around when they simply don't understand or disagree with an approach. Snake oil should be left to things like brilliant pebbles, not to electronics design philosophies. And especially not attached to scientific concepts like psychoacoustics. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 24, 2021 10:56:30 GMT -5
Bob consistently came up with 'novel' and createive names for his circuits. Some more innovative than others. Sonic Hologram? I always wanted to try that! Asymmetrical Charge Coupled FM Detector? come again? T mod made sense if you knew some of the Backstory. While That tracking downconverter PS (not UP?) was pretty neat. My cube had 2 or 3 rails, the top one running at 70 or 75 volts. Class G or perhaps Class H..... If 405 had the PL 400? Probably should consider himself LUCKY it didn't go ballistic. I've seen fix-it kits for retrofit to the couple dozen which survived...... I heard some of the big PL amps....I think there was also a 700, at Pacific Stereo in Whittier CA. driving some Bose 901s........which they'd hung frm the ceiling.... Bob later LOST Phase Linear in his Divorce. Company was sold and I guess simply later destroyed. The 400 yes and it DID blow but….it took 11 years of hard driving service to do so. And yes lots of funky names there for the Carver “creations”. The Cube was out there shortly after the death ☠️ of my 400 but I went with the 1.0t’s instead for their bridged rating My Phase Linear 400 lasted 20 years and then I sold it, still working. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 24, 2021 11:44:13 GMT -5
The 400 yes and it DID blow but….it took 11 years of hard driving service to do so. And yes lots of funky names there for the Carver “creations”. The Cube was out there shortly after the death ☠️ of my 400 but I went with the 1.0t’s instead for their bridged rating My Phase Linear 400 lasted 20 years and then I sold it, still working. Proof that all the news about the 400 wasn’t bad. Usually it was the sales force in the showroom that kept blaze linear stories alive. Still there are mod geeks out there that are wild for both the 400 and 700. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 24, 2021 11:50:30 GMT -5
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Post by leonski on Jun 24, 2021 12:56:23 GMT -5
Easy, just google Bob Carver snakeoil. Lots to munch on. It's amazing how some people throw the snake oil label around when they simply don't understand or disagree with an approach. Snake oil should be left to things like brilliant pebbles, not to electronics design philosophies. And especially not attached to scientific concepts like psychoacoustics. You must concede, DY, that Bob might NOT have done himself any favors by naming stuff with such......Gusto? Bob has probably forgotten more than some designers Know in the 1st place..... Now that I think back? POLK SDA speakers did the same thing as sonic hologram, but in hardware, not electronically.... polksda.com/These speakers did the same L/R stuff and phase thing as Bob's Sonic Holocaust did. Note that the speakers are about 6" apart. Same distance as BETWEEN YOUR EARS.....this allows for the cancelation needed to provide the benefit..... |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 24, 2021 13:34:49 GMT -5
When it comes to tube bias and matching there is a lot of leeway... Most older designs used "cathode bias"... which allows each tube to essentially set its own bias based on the current flowing through the tube. That method is simple, virtually foolproof, and requires no tube matching whatsoever (although you generally want them to at least be similar). This can be combined with an overall adjustment... or done "fully automatically" with no manual adjustment offered at all.
However, because it isn't as precise, it won't give you the absolute lowest distortion numbers... And it sacrifices about ten percent of the power the tube you choose is capable of delivering...
But, on the upside, it is also MUCH less sensitive to tubes that may drift slightly over time as they age.
(It's certainly what I'd be looking for in a low-powered amplifier considering the price of tubes these days.)
Alternately, you can provide individual adjustments for each tube, either automatically or manually. Giving you a separate potentiometer to adjust for each tube isn't really a big deal... but most people resent the extra effort required to make four separate adjustments. Fancy microprocessor-adjusted bias schemes are cool, and can work very well, but there's also a lot to go wrong.
It's also worth mentioning that there is nothing mystical about "tube matching".
All it really means is that someone put a bunch of tubes on their tube tester and picked out a set that measure close to each other. And, unless they specify how close, and what parameters they were matching, saying they're "matched" is sort of a vague claim.... (Did they "match" the bias, or the beta, or both, and to within what percentage? In this context they're probably matching the DC bias/operating point.)
If you have your own tube tester you can find your own sets of "matched tubes".... If you buy four tubes, from the same manufacturer, and the same batch, there's a good chance they'll be pretty close.... And, if you buy a bunch of tubes from the same batch, there's a good chance you''ll find lots of sets that are even closer.... (So, if you and a few friends all have amps that use the same tubes, buy fifty "unmatched" ones, and make a weekend of testing them to find "matched sets".)
One final NOTE on the subject which I started this thread for? I'm looking at a DECWARE amps of 20x2. Nice ampunt of power for a high sensitivity speaker IF YOU LIKE IT......No amount of power will do if you DON'T. But ONE problem? Tubes are replaced as a 4-tube set. ALL tubes are biased at the same time with ONE potentiometer. So If ONE tube goes south? you are in it for a set of 4! I'm not prepared, yet, to look at what it takes to secure 4x EL34 tubes as a 'matched quad'......a frightening thought. Especially if you are drawn to some $$$ NOS tubes. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 24, 2021 13:51:10 GMT -5
The "Sonic Hologram" uses summing and phase shifts to create a "surround effect" from a single pair of speakers. The effect is actually pretty impressive.
The "catch" is that the full effect only works if you're sitting in the precise correct spot within a few inches (literally about three inches either way). Outside of that range it merely produces a pleasant but vague sense of depth and dimension. If you like that sort of thing you can sometimes still find the boxes on eBay. Several Carver devices included the basic circuit... but the separate box, with all the options, is the "Carver C9 Sonic Hologram Generator".
Note that this is long before fancy DSP-based processing... It's all done analog - with resistors and capacitors and 4136 quad op-amps.
Bob consistently came up with 'novel' and createive names for his circuits. Some more innovative than others. Sonic Hologram? I always wanted to try that! Asymmetrical Charge Coupled FM Detector? come again? T mod made sense if you knew some of the Backstory. While That tracking downconverter PS (not UP?) was pretty neat. My cube had 2 or 3 rails, the top one running at 70 or 75 volts. Class G or perhaps Class H..... If 405 had the PL 400? Probably should consider himself LUCKY it didn't go ballistic. I've seen fix-it kits for retrofit to the couple dozen which survived...... I heard some of the big PL amps....I think there was also a 700, at Pacific Stereo in Whittier CA. driving some Bose 901s........which they'd hung frm the ceiling.... Bob later LOST Phase Linear in his Divorce. Company was sold and I guess simply later destroyed. |
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Post by leonski on Jun 24, 2021 14:28:58 GMT -5
I tried many years ago to borrow the C9 from a stereo store but didn't pursue it. I got sidetracked experimenting with DynaQuad. Which had its own virtues and problems.
The SDA speakers did the same thing as the Sonic Hologram but needed a speaker wire connecting the L/R speakers to one another.
I think if you had 2 pair of full range speaekrs, you could figure that one out and try it at home.......
I may look into this. But overall? Yes....you are pretty much 'locked' into a sitting position...
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Post by leonski on Jun 24, 2021 14:38:47 GMT -5
Judging an amp on a price per watt basis is not the best way to judge an amp, in my opinion. Indeed it has absolutely nothing to do with how it performs or more importantly how it sounds.  Boy, ain't THAT the truth. One of those metrics which makes me wonder...... Some SS, like the 'pro' stuff cango for a couple bucks a watt while the Decware 2x25 Torii MK IV goes over 70$ per watt....... so many differences as to make the price difference pale...... |
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 24, 2021 14:44:07 GMT -5
The "Sonic Hologram" uses summing and phase shifts to create a "surround effect" from a single pair of speakers. The effect is actually pretty impressive.
The "catch" is that the full effect only works if you're sitting in the precise correct spot within a few inches (literally about three inches either way). Outside of that range it merely produces a pleasant but vague sense of depth and dimension. If you like that sort of thing you can sometimes still find the boxes on eBay. Several Carver devices included the basic circuit... but the separate box, with all the options, is the "Carver C9 Sonic Hologram Generator".
Note that this is long before fancy DSP-based processing... It's all done analog - with resistors and capacitors and 4136 quad op-amps.
I’m fairly certain Carver’s “Ambience Control” was the predecessor to what became “Sonic Holography”. I had it on board my Phase Linear 2000 stereo preamp back in the 70’s to control the 400. It had a defeat button and and a large control knob to contour the mix. With the wide dispersion Allison:One loudspeaker, the effect was quite dramatic indeed and I ran it all the time around the 2 O clock ⏰ position. Rarely did I have a reason to kill it. |
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Post by leonski on Jun 24, 2021 21:58:30 GMT -5
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