ttocs
Global Moderator 
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,162
|
Post by ttocs on Dec 28, 2021 17:01:57 GMT -5
Things like this made me scrap the plan to trade in my XMC-1 for an XMC-2 (plus I have a different processor now). But, and apologies since I read the first few pages but not the entire thread, I am wondering about a solution I used years ago for a different processor that had a crossover issue with BM. (Nothing like this -- the LFE crossover and BM crossover were coupled and fixed for all channels, making it difficult to blend multiple speakers with different capabilities. LFE above the crossover setting was not sent to any other channels, unlike the Dolby block diagrams of the day, potentially leading to a "hole" in LFE between the crossover setting and the LFE upper limit of ~160 Hz.) The solution I used was to use an external analog crossover after the processor. This could be a purely analog unit (I used a dbx223 for a while) or a hybrid DSP-based unit like a miniDSP with analog I/O. The high/low crossover outputs went to the main power amps and subs. To the AVP, the speakers were "large", and the crossover split the low frequencies from mains (e.g. L/R speakers) to the subs. I placed the subs appropriately for the room, not necessarily next to the mains. The AVP's room correction program then handled phasing/timing of the signal so the result was coherent. I think this would provide a workaround, but with several caveats, mainly that it is complicated. Obviously the crossovers add money (and size, weight, power) to the system cost. And you would have to use room correction (Dirac Live in this case) all the time or the subs and mains would not be integrated (it depends upon the room correction program to align the subs to the other speakers over frequency). While my original system used one stereo crossover, handling just the front pair, I believe this bug means you would have to use a crossover for every channel, and essentially "throw away" the LF content for the speakers not paired with a sub. E.g., two subs would allow you to send L/R signal to them, but you'd have to roll off the LF sound to the other speakers (which are also set to "large" to avoid the BM boost bug). Edit: Reading back over this mess, it would probably work, but is way too complicated for most of us (me too). Better Emotiva just fixes the bug. Chances are a lot of users are happy with the extra bass, at least until something bad happens due to a net 10+ dB boost from the bug + target curve. Note 10 dB boost is asking for 10 times the power from the sub; if you have a 6 dB boost in your target curve and another 8 dB from the bug, then 14 dB boost is 25 times the power! The quick and simple way of working with what we've got at the moment is this. Set all channels to Small, connect all subs to one subwoofer channel like - Left Sub Output setup as Mono, either with the User EQ or Dirac EQ - Level all the channels using Levels in the processor, then reduce the Left Sub Mono by -3dB. This will reduce the BM below the XO in the processor down to the approximate correct level relative to the level above the XO. This will also, unfortunately, lower the LFE signal by that amount, so instead of the correct +10dB LFE level it will now be +7dB (and this cannot be fixed simply by raising the specific LFE adjustment in the Menu because that adjustment only will allow for lowering LFE, not raising it). Really simple version recap: All speaker channels = Small Left Sub = Mono Run Levels in the processor after selecting your EQ choice, User or Dirac, and level all channels. Lower the Left Sub level by -3dB. done More effort version: Use the Center Sub Output for LFE Only and send the BM to the Left Sub Output. This can be done by using two different inputs on the sub(s). Send the Center Sub LFE to the LFE input, and send the Left Sub Mono BM signal to the Left or Right input on the sub and set the sub's crossover as high as possible since you'll be using the crossover setting in the processor. Much more effort but more permanent version with multiple subs: In my case I've got a group of 3 subs being fed by one miniDSP which has both inputs fed from the processor from the Left Sub Mono and Center Sub LFE. One connection on each sub from the miniDSP instead of using two inputs on each sub, but I use the miniDSP to time align the subs in the group. If most folks have one sub, they may never notice a problem. They might just need the extra bass. Even some with multiple subs like extra bass, so, it really is user and setup dependent. |
|
|
|
Post by markc on Dec 29, 2021 19:02:21 GMT -5
Dear ttocs,
Slightly more effort but almost certainly a better result than either of the above options (but more than a little galling to have to even contemplate, but at least it will work as it should):
1) Reset Emotiva processor to factory settings.
2) Power recycle your G3P
3) Sell it "as is" as a used item.
4) Buy a processor that has these most simple of basic functionings working as they should (the Arcam and Anthem processors "issues" are pretty niche and minor compared with this elementary fault that our Emotiva's have. (nb In the UK, I don't have reasonable access to consider the Monoprice, so I have not looked the Monolith up to see what issues it may have)
Why would any G3P owner care, let alone fanny around with mic measurements (I still have not even connected the EDNIB Black Box) or even post, about the nuances that Dirac Live could add to Emotiva G3P when you can't even listen to anything from Dolby Digital (a 1991 standard!) thru Atmos or DTS thru DTS:X Pro with or without Dirac, and get balanced audio.
None of us get proper audio passed to Dirac to stand any chance of filters to even work let alone to do any magic.
Magic In (Atmos) = Garbage Within (Emotiva's unbalanced sound after 1st stage processing)= Garbage out. Each and every time. You can't change this.
Why add Dirac Live (or even DLBC if we had it) to process Garbage?
Room correction on sound that isn't correct to an ideal room to begin with is a stupid proposition.
(So for a fact, any longings in these forums for Dirac Live Bass Control are laughable - Your Processor (and mine) DO NOT WORK. You CANNOT pass a Dolby 5.1 and up audio signal through a G3P. (Speakers set to small, no matter how capable they are)
|
|
|
|
Post by msimanyi on Dec 30, 2021 9:51:01 GMT -5
That sure went off on a dark tangent.
Have you *tried* Dirac with ttocs suggestions? I have, and they work quite well. They’re not perfect, but the results are vastly better than my Marantz AVR.
Good luck with your sale…
|
|
|
|
Post by davidl81 on Dec 30, 2021 10:48:25 GMT -5
That sure went off on a dark tangent. Have you *tried* Dirac with ttocs suggestions? I have, and they work quite well. They’re not perfect, but the results are vastly better than my Marantz AVR. Good luck with your sale… Honestly I can’t blame him for selling. It is 100% unacceptable that someone purchases a “high end” pre/pro and has to do the level of work around for a basic thing like bass management. Especially when it is something that was working pre FW 2.3 and yet has not been corrected 8 months later. |
|
Lsc
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 3,435
|
Post by Lsc on Dec 30, 2021 11:57:01 GMT -5
… Why would any G3P owner care, let alone fanny around with mic measurements (I still have not even connected the EDNIB Black Box) or even post, about the nuances that Dirac Live could add to Emotiva G3P when you can't even listen to anything from Dolby Digital (a 1991 standard!) thru Atmos or DTS thru DTS:X Pro with or without Dirac, and get balanced audio. There is a lot here in the last sentence. What do you mean re: balanced audio? Are you saying we can’t play an old Dolby digital DVD? |
|
|
|
Post by JKCashin on Dec 30, 2021 12:07:33 GMT -5
What is the current agreed best MiniDSP to be using for bass management? I have three subs, but am confused on what MiniDSP unit (or units) to order. There's a new one that appears to handle balanced, but there's also a 4x10 that does balanced that ends up being cheaper for 3 to 4 inputs. So confused.
|
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Dec 30, 2021 12:13:24 GMT -5
Speaking to several posts above ... Lsc , markc and others ...
ttocs and I did a lot of measurements to characterize the bug. It's possible with measurements and some reconfiguring of a given system to minimize the impact, possibly with some tradeoffs, but still quite nice to listen to. There are some use cases that exacerbate the bug to its extreme, and ttocs has described some of those (e.g. All Stereo). And BTW, the Loudness function that was finally "fixed" in 2.1 is pretty much only useable in Stereo ... down right dangerous with upmixes or multichannel ... and that may be related to this. The BM issue is linked to using Dirac, but is not caused by Dirac. And if some mitigation is employed, the system still sounds better with Dirac. And DLBC probably can't work until this is fixed.
I agree that there is a fundamental truth to this bug and its variants: it is fundamental, expected functionality that has been around for decades. It should work, and it has nothing to do with Dolby or DTS specs.
Let's hope for a solution in the next couple months.
|
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Dec 30, 2021 12:21:01 GMT -5
What is the current agreed best MiniDSP to be using for bass management? I have three subs, but am confused on what MiniDSP unit (or units) to order. There's a new one that appears to handle balanced, but there's also a 4x10 that does balanced that ends up being cheaper for 3 to 4 inputs. So confused. I've used 2x4 Balanced and 2x4HD. Both work well and HD has some additional features that may or may not be useful to you. It depends somewhat on how you intend to use your subs. But if you're sending bass management and LFE to the subs (and nowhere else) then you only need to use the Center Sub output configured Mono, and one input to the miniDSP. Three of the four outputs of the miniDSP feed your three subs. The HD gives you larger time delay adjustment and more gain control than the Balanced or Unbalanced. It also has some additional filter features that you likely won't need. |
|
Lsc
Emo VIPs
Posts: 3,435
|
Post by Lsc on Dec 30, 2021 14:53:22 GMT -5
Speaking to several posts above ... Lsc , markc and others ... ttocs and I did a lot of measurements to characterize the bug. It's possible with measurements and some reconfiguring of a given system to minimize the impact, possibly with some tradeoffs, but still quite nice to listen to. There are some use cases that exacerbate the bug to its extreme, and ttocs has described some of those (e.g. All Stereo). And BTW, the Loudness function that was finally "fixed" in 2.1 is pretty much only useable in Stereo ... down right dangerous with upmixes or multichannel ... and that may be related to this. The BM issue is linked to using Dirac, but is not caused by Dirac. And if some mitigation is employed, the system still sounds better with Dirac. And DLBC probably can't work until this is fixed. I agree that there is a fundamental truth to this bug and its variants: it is fundamental, expected functionality that has been around for decades. It should work, and it has nothing to do with Dolby or DTS specs. Let's hope for a solution in the next couple months. Thanks. I’m fine with my XMC2 regarding the BM bug since it’s been relegated to the basement rec room. And yes, it sounds great down there for music and movies. The XMC2 is a great sounding unit and I don’t have any usability issues except for HDMI/ARC. |
|
|
|
Post by JKCashin on Dec 30, 2021 16:07:32 GMT -5
Speaking to several posts above ... Lsc , markc and others ... ttocs and I did a lot of measurements to characterize the bug. It's possible with measurements and some reconfiguring of a given system to minimize the impact, possibly with some tradeoffs, but still quite nice to listen to. There are some use cases that exacerbate the bug to its extreme, and ttocs has described some of those (e.g. All Stereo). And BTW, the Loudness function that was finally "fixed" in 2.1 is pretty much only useable in Stereo ... down right dangerous with upmixes or multichannel ... and that may be related to this. The BM issue is linked to using Dirac, but is not caused by Dirac. And if some mitigation is employed, the system still sounds better with Dirac. And DLBC probably can't work until this is fixed. I agree that there is a fundamental truth to this bug and its variants: it is fundamental, expected functionality that has been around for decades. It should work, and it has nothing to do with Dolby or DTS specs. Let's hope for a solution in the next couple months. Thanks. I’m fine with my XMC2 regarding the BM bug since it’s been relegated to the basement rec room. And yes, it sounds great down there for music and movies. The XMC2 is a great sounding unit and I don’t have any usability issues except for HDMI/ARC. Is there any value in configuring bass to the left and then LFE to center, and then using the two inputs? |
|
|
|
Post by hsamwel on Dec 31, 2021 1:58:57 GMT -5
… Why would any G3P owner care, let alone fanny around with mic measurements (I still have not even connected the EDNIB Black Box) or even post, about the nuances that Dirac Live could add to Emotiva G3P when you can't even listen to anything from Dolby Digital (a 1991 standard!) thru Atmos or DTS thru DTS:X Pro with or without Dirac, and get balanced audio. There is a lot here in the last sentence. What do you mean re: balanced audio? Are you saying we can’t play an old Dolby digital DVD? What I think markc means is.. If you can’t get the same volume out of all channels then it is simply broken, ie not balanced sound. He took Dolby Digital as an example because it’s old and to make a point. This of course has nothing to do with any sound format. Yes, as long as you use BM the sound will not be balanced volume wise. I would suggest using all small with one sub out set to mono. Setup Dirac with a flat curve. This way you’ll only have a 3dB increase in the bass which most want anyway.. |
|
|
|
Post by msimanyi on Dec 31, 2021 14:50:39 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by markc on Jan 1, 2022 5:46:15 GMT -5
… Why would any G3P owner care, let alone fanny around with mic measurements (I still have not even connected the EDNIB Black Box) or even post, about the nuances that Dirac Live could add to Emotiva G3P when you can't even listen to anything from Dolby Digital (a 1991 standard!) thru Atmos or DTS thru DTS:X Pro with or without Dirac, and get balanced audio. There is a lot here in the last sentence. What do you mean re: balanced audio? Are you saying we can’t play an old Dolby digital DVD? Correct. Incorrect audio output whether from Dolby Digital DVD through to UHD Blu-rays with Lossless DTS or Dolby or PCM sound. Any audio output from these processors that uses bass extraction and a crossover then mixes it with the .1 LFE channel will not have the correct balance of low and high frequency sound. |
|
|
|
Post by marcl on Jan 1, 2022 8:49:25 GMT -5
There is a lot here in the last sentence. What do you mean re: balanced audio? Are you saying we can’t play an old Dolby digital DVD? Correct. Incorrect audio output whether from Dolby Digital DVD through to UHD Blu-rays with Lossless DTS or Dolby or PCM sound. Any audio output from these processors that uses bass extraction and a crossover then mixes it with the .1 LFE channel will not have the correct balance of low and high frequency sound. Actually it will be wrong even if it isn't mixed. I use center Sub=LFE to my subs, and Large Fronts get the BM ... separately. The BM from the Fronts is elevated with respect to the Small speakers. |
|
|
|
Post by JKCashin on Jan 2, 2022 14:07:19 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by hsamwel on Jan 3, 2022 7:05:33 GMT -5
Things like this made me scrap the plan to trade in my XMC-1 for an XMC-2 (plus I have a different processor now). But, and apologies since I read the first few pages but not the entire thread, I am wondering about a solution I used years ago for a different processor that had a crossover issue with BM. (Nothing like this -- the LFE crossover and BM crossover were coupled and fixed for all channels, making it difficult to blend multiple speakers with different capabilities. LFE above the crossover setting was not sent to any other channels, unlike the Dolby block diagrams of the day, potentially leading to a "hole" in LFE between the crossover setting and the LFE upper limit of ~160 Hz.) The solution I used was to use an external analog crossover after the processor. This could be a purely analog unit (I used a dbx223 for a while) or a hybrid DSP-based unit like a miniDSP with analog I/O. The high/low crossover outputs went to the main power amps and subs. To the AVP, the speakers were "large", and the crossover split the low frequencies from mains (e.g. L/R speakers) to the subs. I placed the subs appropriately for the room, not necessarily next to the mains. The AVP's room correction program then handled phasing/timing of the signal so the result was coherent. I think this would provide a workaround, but with several caveats, mainly that it is complicated. Obviously the crossovers add money (and size, weight, power) to the system cost. And you would have to use room correction (Dirac Live in this case) all the time or the subs and mains would not be integrated (it depends upon the room correction program to align the subs to the other speakers over frequency). While my original system used one stereo crossover, handling just the front pair, I believe this bug means you would have to use a crossover for every channel, and essentially "throw away" the LF content for the speakers not paired with a sub. E.g., two subs would allow you to send L/R signal to them, but you'd have to roll off the LF sound to the other speakers (which are also set to "large" to avoid the BM boost bug). Edit: Reading back over this mess, it would probably work, but is way too complicated for most of us (me too). Better Emotiva just fixes the bug. Chances are a lot of users are happy with the extra bass, at least until something bad happens due to a net 10+ dB boost from the bug + target curve. Note 10 dB boost is asking for 10 times the power from the sub; if you have a 6 dB boost in your target curve and another 8 dB from the bug, then 14 dB boost is 25 times the power! The quick and simple way of working with what we've got at the moment is this. Set all channels to Small, connect all subs to one subwoofer channel like - Left Sub Output setup as Mono, either with the User EQ or Dirac EQ - Level all the channels using Levels in the processor, then reduce the Left Sub Mono by -3dB. This will reduce the BM below the XO in the processor down to the approximate correct level relative to the level above the XO. This will also, unfortunately, lower the LFE signal by that amount, so instead of the correct +10dB LFE level it will now be +7dB (and this cannot be fixed simply by raising the specific LFE adjustment in the Menu because that adjustment only will allow for lowering LFE, not raising it). Really simple version recap: All speaker channels = Small Left Sub = Mono Run Levels in the processor after selecting your EQ choice, User or Dirac, and level all channels. Lower the Left Sub level by -3dB. done More effort version: Use the Center Sub Output for LFE Only and send the BM to the Left Sub Output. This can be done by using two different inputs on the sub(s). Send the Center Sub LFE to the LFE input, and send the Left Sub Mono BM signal to the Left or Right input on the sub and set the sub's crossover as high as possible since you'll be using the crossover setting in the processor. Much more effort but more permanent version with multiple subs: In my case I've got a group of 3 subs being fed by one miniDSP which has both inputs fed from the processor from the Left Sub Mono and Center Sub LFE. One connection on each sub from the miniDSP instead of using two inputs on each sub, but I use the miniDSP to time align the subs in the group. If most folks have one sub, they may never notice a problem. They might just need the extra bass. Even some with multiple subs like extra bass, so, it really is user and setup dependent. Why not set all to small, use center sub in mono. Set Dirac to a flat curve and live with the 3dB increase.. Many use Harman 4, 6, 10 curves anyway.. So what’s another 3dB from a flat curve? That’s less than Harman 4dB.. Note this is NOT an excuse for ignoring the bug.. We should ”bug” Emotiva each and every day until they release a fix. |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,162
|
Post by ttocs on Jan 3, 2022 8:04:57 GMT -5
The quick and simple way of working with what we've got at the moment is this. Set all channels to Small, connect all subs to one subwoofer channel like - Left Sub Output setup as Mono, either with the User EQ or Dirac EQ - Level all the channels using Levels in the processor, then reduce the Left Sub Mono by -3dB. This will reduce the BM below the XO in the processor down to the approximate correct level relative to the level above the XO. This will also, unfortunately, lower the LFE signal by that amount, so instead of the correct +10dB LFE level it will now be +7dB (and this cannot be fixed simply by raising the specific LFE adjustment in the Menu because that adjustment only will allow for lowering LFE, not raising it). Really simple version recap: All speaker channels = Small Left Sub = Mono Run Levels in the processor after selecting your EQ choice, User or Dirac, and level all channels. Lower the Left Sub level by -3dB. done More effort version: Use the Center Sub Output for LFE Only and send the BM to the Left Sub Output. This can be done by using two different inputs on the sub(s). Send the Center Sub LFE to the LFE input, and send the Left Sub Mono BM signal to the Left or Right input on the sub and set the sub's crossover as high as possible since you'll be using the crossover setting in the processor. Much more effort but more permanent version with multiple subs: In my case I've got a group of 3 subs being fed by one miniDSP which has both inputs fed from the processor from the Left Sub Mono and Center Sub LFE. One connection on each sub from the miniDSP instead of using two inputs on each sub, but I use the miniDSP to time align the subs in the group. If most folks have one sub, they may never notice a problem. They might just need the extra bass. Even some with multiple subs like extra bass, so, it really is user and setup dependent. Why not set all to small, use center sub in mono. Set Dirac to a flat curve and live with the 3dB increase.. Many use Harman 4, 6, 10 curves anyway.. So what’s another 3dB from a flat curve? That’s less than Harman 4dB.. Note this is NOT an excuse for ignoring the bug.. We should ”bug” Emotiva each and every day until they release a fix. As has been said before, many probably never notice this bug when they setup with All Small and using only a single subwoofer output, for a variety of reasons. It's when two or three sub outputs are used that the BMbug increases due to summing, so, using a single output is a recommended way to go. |
|
|
|
Post by donh50 on Jan 3, 2022 9:21:07 GMT -5
FWIW, I have four subs, so this would have a larger impact on me.
Full disclosure: At this point I have abandoned plans to trade in my XMC-1 (really wanted this bug fixed and DLBC, but neither happened before they closed the trade-in window).
|
|
|
|
Post by JKCashin on Jan 3, 2022 14:15:10 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by msimanyi on Jan 3, 2022 16:37:22 GMT -5
Well, I'm honestly the last person you should be thanking. ttocs and marcl are the real heavy lifters on this subject. Yes, that's the message in particular, and you can probably put a lot of the info in this thread to good use as well: emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/57730/subwoofer?page=23&scrollTo=1085461ttocs provides a number of details about how he has things connected. My miniDSP product finally made it through customs and has been delivered, but I haven't had time to set it up yet so I'm barely one small step ahead of you on this learning curve. |
|
