G3P Elevated BM & LFE Issue

[geebo]

Jan 21, 2022 20:30:07 GMT -5 davidl81 said:

Jan 21, 2022 19:55:10 GMT -5 davidl81 said:

I just installed 2.5. Will test in a few mins and report back.

Nope still there. I put on Metallica S&M2 blu-ray and the bass was still significantly louder than other levels. Turned the subs down to -7dB and it helps, but not quite right.
This is 100% BS

Not the same results I'm getting. And not what jimmydean is seeing above.
emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1086656/thread

What is your speaker setup?

[muslhead]

Jan 21, 2022 15:08:48 GMT -5 jbrunwa said:

Jan 21, 2022 13:13:02 GMT -5 geebo said:

Just load it up and see. What firmware are you on now?

"IMHO it’s lame to not publish the specific bug that was fixed. A transparent process would assign issue numbers to user bug reports and then publish the numbers that have been fixed."

But this whole entire problem and how they have handled it has been lame so this is nothing more than an extension of a lame response from a lame company, Who is surprised?

[cawgijoe]

Jan 22, 2022 7:00:47 GMT -5 muslhead said:

Jan 21, 2022 15:08:48 GMT -5 jbrunwa said:

"IMHO it’s lame to not publish the specific bug that was fixed. A transparent process would assign issue numbers to user bug reports and then publish the numbers that have been fixed."

But this whole entire problem and how they have handled it has been lame so this is nothing more than an extension of a lame response from a lame company, Who is surprised?

I always like to see exactly what was fixed. I wish all companies would do that. Many don’t.

I’m still happy that Emotiva is around however and certainly don’t think they are a “lame” company.

[bitzerjdb]

I got a chance to watch a movie last night and the bass finally sounded balanced. I have a Dual Subwoofer setup with the Front L/R speakers set to Large. I still think it is a tad bass heavy, but that could have been the movie. At least in my case, it appears the BM/LFE issue has been fixed!

[davidl81]

Fronts are large, dual mono subs, other speakers are small. I just realized that enhanced bass was on. I turned that off and it helped a bunch.

[jbrunwa]

Jan 22, 2022 7:41:28 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

Jan 22, 2022 7:00:47 GMT -5 muslhead said:

I always like to see exactly what was fixed. I wish all companies would do that. Many don’t.

I’m still happy that Emotiva is around however and certainly don’t think they are a “lame” company.

I also am glad they continue as a company in this economic environment. According to the dictionary, lame means “lacking needful or desirable substance”. I called the practice lame, not the company, so I stand by my statement.

[cawgijoe]

Jan 22, 2022 16:47:57 GMT -5 jbrunwa said:

Jan 22, 2022 7:41:28 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

I always like to see exactly what was fixed. I wish all companies would do that. Many don’t.

I’m still happy that Emotiva is around however and certainly don’t think they are a “lame” company.

I also am glad they continue as a company in this economic environment. According to the dictionary, lame means “lacking needful or desirable substance”. I called the practice lame, not the company, so I stand by my statement.

Thanks for the clarification

[sealman]

So has anyone done any testing on the new firmware to see if it helps the bass bug issue?

[405x5]

Jan 29, 2022 14:15:14 GMT -5 sealman said:

So has anyone done any testing on the new firmware to see if it helps the bass bug issue?

I Dunno 🤷‍♂️….but I LOVE MINIONS 

[ttocs]

I'll be testing FW2.5 tomorrow night.

edit: Actually it'll be Monday, forgot about a dinner with out of town friends.

[ttocs]

FW2.5
hmmmm . . . . .  Not sure yet. Loaded 2.5 after a Movie Night! Double Feature, then began testing, and I'm really tired. What I'm seeing is promising while using the User EQ, but need to end this for tonight and test again tomorrow just to see if the results are repeated and I'm not making mistakes. Need more time. Plus, I'll need to run Dirac to see what happens with a Dirac EQ Filter loaded.

[markc]

ttocs - Help us Obi Wan Kenobi, you are our only hope!

(I am genuinely checking this thread for measured confirmations. To my ears it seems better and my subwoofer has not tripped since I installed the new firmware. I have a feeling that an overloaded signal was being output previously when I ran a mode with dual subs)

[ElectricKoolAid]

ttocs, do you run dual subs? I've still been holding off on this update, but I only run a single sub. Been waiting to see what the outcome of testing this firmware is before updating.

[ttocs]

FW2.5 User EQ BMbug tests
Each run with a different Speaker Size setting change is done after Levels are used to set the level of each channel to 75dB. This is to keep the measurements very consistent in REW, because with some Speaker Size changes the levels can go up/down 0.5dB to 1+dB and drives me nuts. This helps to visually see the patterns that emerge from stacked REW traces.

BM with this firmware is much more tightly controlled when using Surround sound field. I haven't tested other sound fields yet.

So far only Surround has been tested with the following combos:
All using User EQ, 200Hz crossover setting so BM is very easy to see.
All Small, Left Sub Mono
All Small, Left Sub and Center Sub Mono
All Small, Left Sub Mono, Center Sub LFE
Large Fronts and others Small, Left Sub Mono
Large Fronts and others Small, Left Sub and Center Sub Mono
Large Fronts and others Small, Left Sub Mono, Center Sub LFE
Large Fronts and others Small, Center Sub LFE
Large Fronts and others Small,

All Small channels and Large Fronts measure the same, exactly, at about 650Hz in all combos.
Two sub channels providing BM are 1.5dB higher than a single sub channel in all combos using subwoofers for BM (not using Large Fronts for BM).

When only using Left Sub Mono for Small channels there is a "tilt", such that, at 40Hz it's about 2dB higher than at 650Hz, exactly the same as the Large Fronts traces.
When Left Sub Mono and Center Sub Mono are both providing BM for Small channels there is 1.5dB more output for a total of 3.5dB above 650Hz, which is more than a tilt, but because LFE is also higher by the same amount is more correctable by just leveling the sub channels down and they will retain their proper 10dB separation.

I don't see a problem here when using one subwoofer output. In my opinion the BM is fixed for single sub output setups. Like I said above, the tilt for subwoofer/small-channels is exactly like my Large Fronts all by themselves, and in fact the lower frequencies on my Large Fronts get even higher as they get lower.

But,
When two sub channels are used there is increased output of 1.5dB. Is this a problem? If it is, it can very easily be corrected by lowering the level of each sub by half that amount, or something close enough to half. Should we expect more from Emotiva? I'm not so sure, because it may just be how my subs in my room measure, so I'm not going to say there's a problem with what I've measured so far.

I'm not going to declare anything further for now, but, this is better than it's ever been!

Keep something in mind here. With each Speaker Size change you make you should re-Level all the channels because they will change just a tiny amount. Changing which sub channels are active and how they are set, and, if going between Large/Small for Fronts as an example, can change the output of other channels. Sometimes it's no change, sometimes it's a dB plus or minus. Don't assume (as Felix Unger pointed out in a courtroom scene in The Odd Couple tv show), verify.

[ElectricKoolAid]

Feb 1, 2022 16:57:42 GMT -5 ttocs said:

FW2.5 User EQ BMbug tests
Each run with a different Speaker Size setting change is done after Levels are used to set the level of each channel to 75dB. This is to keep the measurements very consistent in REW, because with some Speaker Size changes the levels can go up/down 0.5dB to 1+dB and drives me nuts. This helps to visually see the patterns that emerge from stacked REW traces.

BM with this firmware is much more tightly controlled when using Surround sound field. I haven't tested other sound fields yet.

So far only Surround has been tested with the following combos:
All using User EQ, 200Hz crossover setting so BM is very easy to see.
All Small, Left Sub Mono
All Small, Left Sub and Center Sub Mono
All Small, Left Sub Mono, Center Sub LFE
Large Fronts and others Small, Left Sub Mono
Large Fronts and others Small, Left Sub and Center Sub Mono
Large Fronts and others Small, Left Sub Mono, Center Sub LFE
Large Fronts and others Small, Center Sub LFE
Large Fronts and others Small,

All Small channels and Large Fronts measure the same, exactly, at about 650Hz in all combos.
Two sub channels providing BM are 1.5dB higher than a single sub channel in all combos using subwoofers for BM (not using Large Fronts for BM).

When only using Left Sub Mono for Small channels there is a "tilt", such that, at 40Hz it's about 2dB higher than at 650Hz, exactly the same as the Large Fronts traces.
When Left Sub Mono and Center Sub Mono are both providing BM for Small channels there is 1.5dB more output for a total of 3.5dB above 650Hz, which is more than a tilt, but because LFE is also higher by the same amount is more correctable by just leveling the sub channels down and they will retain their proper 10dB separation.

I don't see a problem here when using one subwoofer output. In my opinion the BM is fixed for single sub output setups. Like I said above, the tilt for subwoofer/small-channels is exactly like my Large Fronts all by themselves, and in fact the lower frequencies on my Large Fronts get even higher as they get lower.

But,
When two sub channels are used there is increased output of 1.5dB. Is this a problem? If it is, it can very easily be corrected by lowering the level of each sub by half that amount, or something close enough to half. Should we expect more from Emotiva? I'm not so sure, because it may just be how my subs in my room measure, so I'm not going to say there's a problem with what I've measured so far.

I'm not going to declare anything further for now, but, this is better than it's ever been!

Keep something in mind here. With each Speaker Size change you make you should re-Level all the channels because they will change just a tiny amount. Changing which sub channels are active and how they are set, and, if going between Large/Small for Fronts as an example, can change the output of other channels. Sometimes it's no change, sometimes it's a dB plus or minus. Don't assume (as Felix Unger pointed out in a courtroom scene in The Odd Couple tv show), verify.

This is great news! I'll probably plan to upgrade my XMC-2 this weekend. 

[ttocs]

Tonight I'll run Dirac, which has had issues with our BMbug. With previous firmwares it's been kinda whacky. Hope it's more tame now.

[ttocs]

FW2.5 Dirac 3.2.2 EQ BMbug tests

Well, this is looking really good because it's pretty much just like when using User EQ, whereas with previous firmware measurements with a Dirac EQ were kinda dangerous to woofers with some setups.

Using subwoofers for BM, everything is really simple.
One subwoofer channel used has a +2dB tilt in the bass @40hz vs 650Hz.
Two subwoofer channels used increases BM +2dB vs using only one sub channel.
These results are the same as using User EQ.
This is very consistent and repeatable. Doesn't matter if Fronts are Large or Small, same results.

When using Large Fronts for BM, the BM @40hz is 3.5dB higher than just the Left Front by itself, this is due to both Large Fronts summing and not being reduced like they should. Further, the BM is 4.5dB higher @40hz vs @650hz. This still needs to be addressed.

There's not much else to say because most of this issue is fixed IMO.

If one wants to get the BM exact and has good bass response without any boost needed, then lower one sub channel by a dB or so, and if using two sub channels for BM then lower each sub channel by a dB or so. But this is now something that will not be noticed by anyone who is not measuring to find out what's going on.

All of this so far is only using Surround sound field. I haven't checked All Stereo which used to be really nutzoid adding as much as 18-22dB. I'll do that another day. Right now I'm going to enjoy some music.

[JKCashin]

THanks for doing this ttocs!

[ttocs]

FW2.5 User EQ BMbug tests
All Stereo: This is DANGEROUS TO SUBWOOFERS!!

This is easy for anyone to see. The Blue traces are while using Surround mode, Red traces are All Stereo mode.

The BM while in All Stereo is at +12dB vs the frequencies above the XO!!!! This is nuts. DO NOT USE ALL STEREO!

[ElectricKoolAid]

Feb 2, 2022 9:53:08 GMT -5 ttocs said:

FW2.5 User EQ BMbug tests
All Stereo: This is DANGEROUS TO SUBWOOFERS!!

This is easy for anyone to see. The Blue traces are while using Surround mode, Red traces are All Stereo mode.

The BM while in All Stereo is at +12dB vs the frequencies above the XO!!!! This is nuts. DO NOT USE ALL STEREO!
<button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button>

WOW! I do not use that mode so I will keep avoiding it but that's just crazy...