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Post by fbczar on Jan 22, 2022 17:52:29 GMT -5
Could any of you speak to the sound quality of the XMC-2 for Stereo vs high end preamplifiers from Rogue Audio, Prima Luna or others (especially those that have a home theater bypass)? Does it make sense to install a new preamp and DAC into the system vs adding just an outboard DAC through the XMC-2’s RCA or XLR inputs? Or can you speak to external DAC’s you have used with the XMC-2 and how they compared to the XMC-2’s DACs.
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Post by ttocs on Jan 22, 2022 18:53:07 GMT -5
Just within the last week I've been wondering this also! So I'm also interested in what others may have compared.
FWIW I'm extremely happy with the sound of the XMC-2 for two channel music! Being that I prefer the DACs in the XMC-2 vs any other DACs in products I've owned, it would be interesting to know about stand-alone DACs. I began wondering about this so did some searching and started getting befuddled about the whole thing. I kept landing back at the Schiit web site thinking, this might be a good starting point, just as a comparison.
With that being said, I'm all eyes.
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Post by jbrunwa on Jan 22, 2022 19:36:59 GMT -5
I doubt that sound quality in itself would be audibly better than an XMC-2 DAC, but I think the choice depends on the digital content formats you want to decode, if the XMC-2 can decode the specific sources. If it can’t decode a format, then you are forced to use an external DAC if you want to listen to the format.
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Post by fbczar on Jan 22, 2022 19:45:59 GMT -5
Just within the last week I've been wondering this also! So I'm also interested in what others may have compared. FWIW I'm extremely happy with the sound of the XMC-2 for two channel music! Being that I prefer the DACs in the XMC-2 vs any other DACs in products I've owned, it would be interesting to know about stand-alone DACs. I began wondering about this so did some searching and started getting befuddled about the whole thing. I kept landing back at the Schiit web site thinking, this might be a good starting point, just as a comparison. With that being said, I'm all eyes. As you probably remember Emotiva promised that DSD over USB would be implemented in the XMC-2. Fortunately the XMC-2 will play SACDs but DSD over USB has not been implemented. Schiit does not make PCM DACs, but they do make a number of positively reviewed PCM DACs including multibit units like the Yggdrasil. If you do not care about DSD, Schiit is definitely one option. If DSD matters Denaphrips also makes several great DACs. I am most concerned with how a preamp like one of the Rogue units, which have sophisticated home theater pass thru circuits, sound versus the XMC-2 as a preamp. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 22, 2022 20:04:16 GMT -5
This is an easier test to make than one might expect. Use a variable output DAC of your choice. Feed the output directly to a power amp. Then feed the variable output through the XMC-2. Any difference you hear is due to the processor. Like the results? Use the XMC-2. Not? Keep looking. EVERY preamp or processor colors the sound slightly.
Another option would be to buy a passive volume control (I like mine with remote control). Use a fixed-output DAC & route the signal through the passive volume pot directly to a power amp. Then compare that setup to the XMC-2.
I find that many preamps have low enough colorations that I can live with them (that wasn't always the case, but preamps - even inexpensive ones - have improved by orders of magnitude this century).
I can't speak about processors, sorry. But that's my two cents.
Boom
Postscriptum - Remember also that beyond a certain point even incremental improvements in sound quality can cost exponentially more. Just sayin'...
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Post by ttocs on Jan 22, 2022 20:17:01 GMT -5
This is an easier test to make than one might expect. . . . . . . . . . . I can't speak about processors, sorry. But that's my two cents. Boom Postscriptum - Remember also that beyond a certain point even incremental improvements in sound quality can cost exponentially more. Just sayin'... Boom, that's a very straightforward explanation for how to go about it! Thank you very much! Scott |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 22, 2022 20:22:17 GMT -5
Boom, that's a very straightforward explanation for how to go about it! Thank you very much! Scott I may have dain bramage, but sometimes I get stuff right... But I'll be the FIRST to admit that there are LOTS of posters here on the Lounge that know a whole lot more than I. |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 22, 2022 20:46:17 GMT -5
This is an easier test to make than one might expect. Use a variable output DAC of your choice. Feed the output directly to a power amp. Then feed the variable output through the XMC-2. Any difference you hear is due to the processor. Like the results? Use the XMC-2. Not? Keep looking. EVERY preamp or processor colors the sound slightly. Another option would be to buy a passive volume control (I like mine with remote control). Use a fixed-output DAC & route the signal through the passive volume pot directly to a power amp. Then compare that setup to the XMC-2. I find that many preamps have low enough colorations that I can live with them (that wasn't always the case, but preamps - even inexpensive ones - have improved by orders of magnitude this century). I can't speak about processors, sorry. But that's my two cents. Boom Postscriptum - Remember also that beyond a certain point even incremental improvements in sound quality can cost exponentially more. Just sayin'... Boom, Thanks for your response. However, my main focus was on the results gained by using a stereo preamp with a home theater bypass. There is no doubt DACs will sound different or better. My old Theta Gen. Va sounds considerably better than the XMC-2 when playing CD material. I wondered if the higher parts quality of stereo preamps with analogue volume controls would make a major difference or not. Of course, the Rogue equipment has a tube stage so that would sound different because of that. Generally speaking the build quality of a 2 channel preamp is superior to a processor for practical price driven reasons. Again, I app your input. |
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Post by RichGuy on Jan 22, 2022 21:39:53 GMT -5
I've been enjoying using home theater bypass with a separate preamp for several years now. I've used it with both an XMC-1 and my current RMC-1L processors and I first began using it when I had an Onkyo PR-SC885 processor. My preamps were first an Emotiva XSP-1 and now my current PS Audio BHK Signature preamp. The DACs I've used with my preamps are both an MHDT Havana and a balanced MHDT Stockholm both are NOS tube DACs and both are DACs which I think sound amazing.
I would say that the difference in music using my preamps was an extremely nice upgrade and I'm very happy with the results. I've never enjoyed the quality of music more. I would definitely say the difference is considerable for me.
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Post by audiobill on Jan 23, 2022 10:39:56 GMT -5
The “sound quality” of a dac/ preamp has a lot to with the attention paid to and quality of its power supply and output stage. Use of switching power supplies, opamps, inexpensive capacitors, inexpensive source switching, digital volume controls and other cost saving techniques help to contribute to perceived “value”. Examine resale values and make your decision, not ignoring the value to you of “pride of ownership”.
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Post by fbczar on Jan 23, 2022 11:52:12 GMT -5
The “sound quality” of a dac/ preamp has a lot to with the attention paid to and quality of its power supply and output stage. Use of switching power supplies, opamps, inexpensive capacitors, inexpensive source switching, digital volume controls and other cost saving techniques help to contribute to perceived “value”. Examine resale values and make your decision, not ignoring the value to you of “pride of ownership”. The XMC-2 has a very nice volume control which is one of the major advantages it has over other competing processors and I believe Emotiva has done a good job concentrating on good parts in critical areas. However, some high end stereo preamps have purely analog volume controls, super quiet switching devices and very quiet linear power supplies. Obviously, stereo preamps only have two channels so it is far less expensive to build an ultimate stereo preamp than a multi channel processor. With that in mind I was interested in knowing if a stereo preamp with home theater bypass would be a definite, clear improvement over the XMC-2 for stereo. If not, I would isolate my concerns to a DAC upgrade and use the XMC-2 for stereo. |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 23, 2022 12:00:19 GMT -5
I've been enjoying using home theater bypass with a separate preamp for several years now. I've used it with both an XMC-1 and my current RMC-1L processors and I first began using it when I had an Onkyo PR-SC885 processor. My preamps were first an Emotiva XSP-1 and now my current PS Audio BHK Signature preamp. The DACs I've used with my preamps are both an MHDT Havana and a balanced MHDT Stockholm both are NOS tube DACs and both are DACs which I think sound amazing. I would say that the difference in music using my preamps was an extremely nice upgrade and I'm very happy with the results. I've never enjoyed the quality of music more. I would definitely say the difference is considerable for me. Many thanks for your extremely useful reply. According to XSP-1 and the XMC-2/XMC-1 are very similar sound wise. Would you agree? I was also interested in Rogue and Primaluna preamps because of they are tube based. I will be using Magneplanar 3.7i speakers so synergy and resolving capability are critical, I think. Any other advice? |
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Post by routlaw on Jan 23, 2022 12:47:19 GMT -5
I used the XSP-1 while I owned the XMC-1 and to me in my system the pre-amp sounded better than the XMC-1’s pre-amp in reference stereo however many others thought there was no difference. Once I did the trade in on the RMC-1L it was a different story and found the pre-amp section only of the RMC to be considerably better and sold the XSP-1. While I don’t doubt there are stand alone pre-amps that might outperform the RMC’s pre-amp only section you’ll have to spend a lot more money to get there, such as the PS Audio pre-amp previously mentioned which cost as much as the RMC-1L alone. Understand too that pre-amp also has a tube input stage which will add another dimension.
I have found the RMC to be neutral, yet dynmic.
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Post by creimes on Jan 23, 2022 12:54:29 GMT -5
I've been enjoying using home theater bypass with a separate preamp for several years now. I've used it with both an XMC-1 and my current RMC-1L processors and I first began using it when I had an Onkyo PR-SC885 processor. My preamps were first an Emotiva XSP-1 and now my current PS Audio BHK Signature preamp. The DACs I've used with my preamps are both an MHDT Havana and a balanced MHDT Stockholm both are NOS tube DACs and both are DACs which I think sound amazing. I would say that the difference in music using my preamps was an extremely nice upgrade and I'm very happy with the results. I've never enjoyed the quality of music more. I would definitely say the difference is considerable for me. Many thanks for your extremely useful reply. According to XSP-1 and the XMC-2/XMC-1 are very similar sound wise. Would you agree? I was also interested in Rogue and Primaluna preamps because of they are tube based. I will be using Magneplanar 3.7i speakers so synergy and resolving capability are critical, I think. Any other advice? It would be most beneficial to your question of trying it yourself, there is nothing wrong with asking of course to get a base starting point but I find it's best for one to try it in their own room with their own ears, do any of the companies you are interested in have any sort of trial period ?? as that might be a great option, or going used route for less loss if reselling. Chad |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 23, 2022 13:37:35 GMT -5
Many thanks for your extremely useful reply. According to XSP-1 and the XMC-2/XMC-1 are very similar sound wise. Would you agree? I was also interested in Rogue and Primaluna preamps because of they are tube based. I will be using Magneplanar 3.7i speakers so synergy and resolving capability are critical, I think. Any other advice? It would be most beneficial to your question of trying it yourself, there is nothing wrong with asking of course to get a base starting point but I find it's best for one to try it in their own room with their own ears, do any of the companies you are interested in have any sort of trial period ?? as that might be a great option, or going used route for less loss if reselling. Chad Good point. I miss the days when you could go to a local store and borrow equipment. I will check with Rogue and see what they offer. I think Rogue has a more visceral bass than PrimaLuna, based on what I have heard, so I will start with them. I am hopeful that a Rogue preamp and my XPA-1L's will be a solid match. As far as DAC's go I think I will concentrate on the ones that play DSD. Denaphrips seems to provide exceptional value. I had not considered tube DACs, but maybe I should. |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 23, 2022 13:49:26 GMT -5
I used the XSP-1 while I owned the XMC-1 and to me in my system the pre-amp sounded better than the XMC-1’s pre-amp in reference stereo however many others thought there was no difference. Once I did the trade in on the RMC-1L it was a different story and found the pre-amp section only of the RMC to be considerably better and sold the XSP-1. While I don’t doubt there are stand alone pre-amps that might outperform the RMC’s pre-amp only section you’ll have to spend a lot more money to get there, such as the PS Audio pre-amp previously mentioned which cost as much as the RMC-1L alone. Understand too that pre-amp also has a tube input stage which will add another dimension. I have found the RMC to be neutral, yet dynmic. Really excellent post, and to the point. I understand the preamp section, volume control, etc. of the RMC-1L and the XMC-2 are identical, but I stand to be corrected. The Rogue RP-1 is less than $2000.00 MSRP and the RP-5 is about $3500 MSRP and most other contenders are much more, so it would be nice if I could just concentrate on DACs. |
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Post by RichGuy on Jan 23, 2022 13:50:34 GMT -5
I've been enjoying using home theater bypass with a separate preamp for several years now. I've used it with both an XMC-1 and my current RMC-1L processors and I first began using it when I had an Onkyo PR-SC885 processor. My preamps were first an Emotiva XSP-1 and now my current PS Audio BHK Signature preamp. The DACs I've used with my preamps are both an MHDT Havana and a balanced MHDT Stockholm both are NOS tube DACs and both are DACs which I think sound amazing. I would say that the difference in music using my preamps was an extremely nice upgrade and I'm very happy with the results. I've never enjoyed the quality of music more. I would definitely say the difference is considerable for me. Many thanks for your extremely useful reply. According to XSP-1 and the XMC-2/XMC-1 are very similar sound wise. Would you agree? I was also interested in Rogue and Primaluna preamps because of they are tube based. I will be using Magneplanar 3.7i speakers so synergy and resolving capability are critical, I think. Any other advice? My PS Audio BHK Signature preamp is also tube based as well as my MHDT DACs, I really love their sound extremely detailed with excellent separation of instruments as well as better separation between different singers voices, yet not at all cold or analytical, a musical warmth and timing that sounds much more like good live music. I'd have to say my MHDT DACs are the most musical DACs I've ever heard, very similar to vinyl yet extremely detailed and with all the benefits of digital. While my PS Audio preamp has the best separation and clarity I've ever heard in my system. As for the XSP-1 and XMC-1, I had both in my system at the same time and I definitely preferred using the XSP-1 for music. |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 23, 2022 13:57:51 GMT -5
Many thanks for your extremely useful reply. According to XSP-1 and the XMC-2/XMC-1 are very similar sound wise. Would you agree? I was also interested in Rogue and Primaluna preamps because of they are tube based. I will be using Magneplanar 3.7i speakers so synergy and resolving capability are critical, I think. Any other advice? My PS Audio BHK Signature preamp is also tube based as well as my MHDT DACs, I really love their sound extremely detailed with excellent separation of instruments as well as better separation between different singers voices, yet not at all cold or analytical, a musical warmth and timing that sounds much more like good live music. I'd have to say my MHDT DACs are the most musical DACs I've ever heard, very similar to vinyl yet extremely detailed and with all the benefits of digital. While my PS Audio preamp has the best separation and clarity I've ever heard in my system. As for the XSP-1 and XMC-1, I had both in my system at the same time and I definitely preferred using the XSP-1 for music. Now that is REALLY interesting. I have always doubted that the XMC-1 could equal the XSP-1 even though that was indicated in the early days after the XMC-1 release. Can the MHDT DACs play DSD? I assume your tube equipment provides a smooth "holographic" soundstage. I think that would be awesome with Magneplanars and their already incredible soundstage. |
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Post by housetech on Jan 23, 2022 13:58:40 GMT -5
fbczar, what's your baseline? What equipment do you have now? What equipment do you want to keep because you like it or serves another purpose? What's your available space? What's your future plans? Have you considered an integrated?
Remember, you could chase rabbits down a hole and still not be happy because you have a limit on money to spend or didn't plan ahead.
We have so many options today. I agree with Chad, I'm not above buying pre-owned if the value is there, let someone else take the hit of retail price, especially if you're not sure.
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Post by creimes on Jan 23, 2022 14:11:26 GMT -5
It would be most beneficial to your question of trying it yourself, there is nothing wrong with asking of course to get a base starting point but I find it's best for one to try it in their own room with their own ears, do any of the companies you are interested in have any sort of trial period ?? as that might be a great option, or going used route for less loss if reselling. Chad Good point. I miss the days when you could go to a local store and borrow equipment. I will check with Rogue and see what they offer. I think Rogue has a more visceral bass than PrimaLuna, based on what I have heard, so I will start with them. I am hopeful that a Rogue preamp and my XPA-1L's will be a solid match. As far as DAC's go I think I will concentrate on the ones that play DSD. Denaphrips seems to provide exceptional value. I had not considered tube DACs, but maybe I should. Not sure on the model you are looking at but here is a barely used RP-5 www.usaudiomart.com/details/649612962-rogue-audio-rp-5-and-other-models/Cheers, Chad |
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