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Post by audiobill on Jan 23, 2022 14:11:50 GMT -5
I’ve been delighted with my Mcintosh c2600 preamp. All tubes, Built in dsd capable dac, meters, separate tubed mm and mc phono stages, remote, headphone out, rca and balanced, All there….about $4500 -$5,000 preowned. And best of all, very little if any depreciation forward. And HT bypass too.
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Post by RichGuy on Jan 23, 2022 16:18:25 GMT -5
I do agree that buying pre-owned can definitely be a great way to go. I bought my PS Audio on US Audio Mart it was just like new in every way. The seller wanted $3,900 and I offered $3,500 and bought it for that, it was selling for $5,999 new at that time and it now sells for $6,599 new. Mine also came with highly regarded upgraded tubes that typically sell for about $300 a pair, however I found a set of tubes I liked even more which is what I'm now using. All I can say is the PS Audio BHK Signature preamp is one really nice preamp with excellent sound quality. Here's one on US Audio Mart that looks very nice selling now for $3,500 www.usaudiomart.com/details/649818297-ps-audio-bhk-pre-with-upgraded-tube-stereophile-class-a-in-excellent-condition-black/Here's another selling for $3,600 www.usaudiomart.com/details/649818750-bhk-signature-pre-wnos-mullard/Also, here's PS Audio's site for it, it's available in both black and silver, I like mine in black www.psaudio.com/products/bhk-signature-preamplifier/ |
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Post by routlaw on Jan 23, 2022 19:45:38 GMT -5
One other thing I would like to mention, the DAC's in the G3 Pre-Pros, ie AKM 4490's are really good. I mean really good too. Could be due to the chips themselves or the way Emotiva implemented the rest of the circuits or both. None of this isn't to say once again you can't obtain better performance from a stand alone unit, but that comes at a price on top of what you might have already paid for the XMC-2. Note I would not have said this about the XMC-1, which was a fine product, just not in the same league as the G3 pre-pros even if they have had some stability issues, but the sound quality is on another level.
I recently sold my Holo Spring DAC which is an R2R Ladder DAC which was universally praised. Why? To me the RMC-1L with its own built in DAC in Reference Stereo sounds better and by no small margin. Didn't want to believe this at first and it took me half a year to finally come to grips with and admit it. For now I am staying put with just the RMC-1L but somewhere down the road perhaps I'll consider other outboard DAC's/Pre-amps but don't see the need for it currently.
Congrats to those who have taken the plunge however, glad you are enjoying your other options.
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Post by fbczar on Jan 23, 2022 23:28:20 GMT -5
fbczar, what's your baseline? What equipment do you have now? What equipment do you want to keep because you like it or serves another purpose? What's your available space? What's your future plans? Have you considered an integrated? Remember, you could chase rabbits down a hole and still not be happy because you have a limit on money to spend or didn't plan ahead. We have so many options today. I agree with Chad, I'm not above buying pre-owned if the value is there, let someone else take the hit of retail price, especially if you're not sure. I want to keep my home theater equipment (I have and XMC-2) and my XPA-1L’s and add a stereo preamp with home theater bypass and a DAC capable of playing DSD. I have some interest in tubes in a preamp, but doubt I would want a tubed power amp given the requirements of the Magneplanars I will be using. I think the XPA-1L’s may sound good with one of the Rogue preamps, but cannot be sure without testing. I suppose I could buy a Hegel Integrated and take care of the preamp and the power all at once, but I like the idea of tubes and I would definitely have to compare the Hegel to the XPA-1L’s first. If the XMC-2 could play DSD and had the higher sampling rate for Dirac promised when I bought it I might not be looking at additional equipment, but unfortunately I doubt Dirac will ever be upgraded and I have no hope Emotiva will follow through on DSD over USB. Buying used is a definite possibility. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Jan 24, 2022 7:20:52 GMT -5
Could any of you speak to the sound quality of the XMC-2 for Stereo vs high end preamplifiers from Rogue Audio, Prima Luna or others (especially those that have a home theater bypass)? Does it make sense to install a new preamp and DAC into the system vs adding just an outboard DAC through the XMC-2’s RCA or XLR inputs? Or can you speak to external DAC’s you have used with the XMC-2 and how they compared to the XMC-2’s DACs. The one experience that I had when my buddy brought over his BAT VK33SE and his Denafrips Terminator over for a little side by side test, showed that a high end preamp can be vastly superior to the XMC2. The DAC comparison showed that the Denafrips was a little better. But the preamp was a “night and day” difference in my opinion. Still, I walked away saying, “well while there is definitely another level here the XMC2 still sounds pretty darn good”. I wasn’t compelled enough to change my electronics, instead I upgraded my speakers which I thought made a bigger overall impact to my system. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 24, 2022 10:18:28 GMT -5
At a guess that preamp sounds very different because it's tubes and not because it's "better". (Tube gear often - intentionally - has a distinct sound rather than being designed to be as neutral as possible.)
The XMC-2 really has pretty much no sound at all if you bypass all processing... which is what you're comparing it to with an analog preamp. (However, in order to get that, you're going to have to use Reference Stereo mode - and sacrifice all processing.)
Could any of you speak to the sound quality of the XMC-2 for Stereo vs high end preamplifiers from Rogue Audio, Prima Luna or others (especially those that have a home theater bypass)? Does it make sense to install a new preamp and DAC into the system vs adding just an outboard DAC through the XMC-2’s RCA or XLR inputs? Or can you speak to external DAC’s you have used with the XMC-2 and how they compared to the XMC-2’s DACs. The one experience that I had when my buddy brought over his BAT VK33SE and his Denafrips Terminator over for a little side by side test, showed that a high end preamp can be vastly superior to the XMC2. The DAC comparison showed that the Denafrips was a little better. But the preamp was a “night and day” difference in my opinion. Still, I walked away saying, “well while there is definitely another level here the XMC2 still sounds pretty darn good”. I wasn’t compelled enough to change my electronics, instead I upgraded my speakers which I thought made a bigger overall impact to my system. |
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Post by Lsc on Jan 24, 2022 12:12:48 GMT -5
At a guess that preamp sounds very different because it's tubes and not because it's "better". (Tube gear often - intentionally - has a distinct sound rather than being designed to be as neutral as possible.)
The XMC-2 really has pretty much no sound at all if you bypass all processing... which is what you're comparing it to with an analog preamp. (However, in order to get that, you're going to have to use Reference Stereo mode - and sacrifice all processing.)
I understand your point Keith but if the difference means better bass response, imaging and resolution then I can comfortably say that the sound was not just different but better. It’s not like it was just a little better - I believe I had the Revel F228Be at the time and I was shocked at how good these speakers were after it was hooked up to the BAT / Denafrips. The XMC2 is less transparent than what you state. That could have been the intended goal for the XMC2 during the product design phase, however the execution appears to have failed to hit that mark. There is coloration in the preamp portion of the XMC2. To get the best out of the XMC2, one is much better off using Dirac to mask some of these shortcomings. I think my old Theta Casanova that my buddy gave actually has a better preamp stage than the XMC2 but the XMC2 has a better DAC. Because the Theta has a superior crossover system over the XMC2 even without room correction, I prefer the sound with the Theta in my main system over the XMC2. I can blend the sub better right now as I wait for DLBC. I’d rather watch 4K blu-rays without lossless audio (Theta can only do lossy) because music sounds better using this ancient preamp. I’m hoping to just leave things alone until I can get the Trinnov down the road (after I pay for college over the next several years) but who knows. I like the all in one solution so maybe another HT preamp can replace the Theta and still meet all my needs. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jan 24, 2022 12:50:33 GMT -5
At a guess that preamp sounds very different because it's tubes and not because it's "better". (Tube gear often - intentionally - has a distinct sound rather than being designed to be as neutral as possible.)
The XMC-2 really has pretty much no sound at all if you bypass all processing... which is what you're comparing it to with an analog preamp. (However, in order to get that, you're going to have to use Reference Stereo mode - and sacrifice all processing.)
I understand your point Keith but if the difference means better bass response, imaging and resolution then I can comfortably say that the sound was not just different but better. It’s not like it was just a little better - I believe I had the Revel F228Be at the time and I was shocked at how good these speakers were after it was hooked up to the BAT / Denafrips. The XMC2 is less transparent than what you state. That could have been the intended goal for the XMC2 during the product design phase, however the execution appears to have failed to hit that mark. There is coloration in the preamp portion of the XMC2. To get the best out of the XMC2, one is much better off using Dirac to mask some of these shortcomings. I think my old Theta Casanova that my buddy gave actually has a better preamp stage than the XMC2 but the XMC2 has a better DAC. Because the Theta has a superior crossover system over the XMC2 even without room correction, I prefer the sound with the Theta in my main system over the XMC2. I can blend the sub better right now as I wait for DLBC. I’d rather watch 4K blu-rays without lossless audio (Theta can only do lossy) because music sounds better using this ancient preamp. I’m hoping to just leave things alone until I can get the Trinnov down the road (after I pay for college over the next several years) but who knows. I like the all in one solution so maybe another HT preamp can replace the Theta and still meet all my needs. This is very confusing to me. The XMC-2 without processing doesn't have any coloration as far as I can hear. Confused. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jan 24, 2022 13:04:39 GMT -5
Too bad the Topping P90 and the Schiit Freya don’t have HT pass through. That’s all one would need. See February 2022 issue of Stereophile if you don’t believe that. 😜
Me, I’m waiting for the new XSP-1 which should have HT pass through. Just want all my analog sources through a (bug free) preamp and let the XMC-2 do anything involved with surround sound. 😊
Russ
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Post by tropicallutefisk on Jan 24, 2022 14:14:41 GMT -5
Too bad the Topping P90 and the Schiit Freya don’t have HT pass through. That’s all one would need. See February 2022 issue of Stereophile if you don’t believe that. 😜 Me, I’m waiting for the new XSP-1 which should have HT pass through. Just want all my analog sources through a (bug free) preamp and let the XMC-2 do anything involved with surround sound. 😊 Russ You can do a HT Pass Through with Freya. To do so, hook up your processor as an input, select it and then set output to "passive". Your processor signal will now pass through and you can operate it as you normally would. There is a downfall though. You risk blowing your speakers if you fail to use the proper protocol when switching between inputs. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Jan 24, 2022 14:38:32 GMT -5
This is very confusing to me. The XMC-2 without processing doesn't have any coloration as far as I can hear. Confused. Maybe coloration is too strong of a word. If the XMC2 sounds transparent to you then that’s all that matters. I don’t plan on spending $10k on a preamp regardless how much better it sounds. So either way, whether the XMC2 sounds just fine or you don’t plan on spending $10k to get a better 2 channel preamp, it’s the same end result. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 24, 2022 16:57:08 GMT -5
I'm inclined to agree that coloration is in fact the correct word. Arguably, since nothing is perfect, every device has the potential to introduce some tiny amount of coloration (or a not-so-tiny amount). However, to be quite blunt, the amount of coloration introduced by the preamp section XMC-2 is really really tiny. (For example, it's FAR less than the coloration introduced by a phono cartridge, or a tape head, or a microphone, or a studio recording console... or a speaker.)
Therefore, to be quite blunt, in terms of "pure sound quality", there really isn't a lot of room for improvement.
Which strongly suggests that, if another piece of gear sounds "dramatically different", then the reason is probably coloration of some sort.
I should also point out that, in the XMC-2, the Bass Management is accomplished via digital processing (as wit virtually all modern pre/pros. Therefore, if you are using Bass Management, then you are going through all of the digital processing sections of the XMC-2, and NOT just the preamp section. If you want to judge just the analog preamp section, then you'll need to use an analog input and Reference Stereo mode.
And, if you want to judge just the DACs and preamp section, then you'll want to be using Direct Mode (which also bypasses all unnecessary processing).
This is very confusing to me. The XMC-2 without processing doesn't have any coloration as far as I can hear. Confused. Maybe coloration is too strong of a word. If the XMC2 sounds transparent to you then that’s all that matters. I don’t plan on spending $10k on a preamp regardless how much better it sounds. So either way, whether the XMC2 sounds just fine or you don’t plan on spending $10k to get a better 2 channel preamp, it’s the same end result. |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 24, 2022 17:09:43 GMT -5
Could any of you speak to the sound quality of the XMC-2 for Stereo vs high end preamplifiers from Rogue Audio, Prima Luna or others (especially those that have a home theater bypass)? Does it make sense to install a new preamp and DAC into the system vs adding just an outboard DAC through the XMC-2’s RCA or XLR inputs? Or can you speak to external DAC’s you have used with the XMC-2 and how they compared to the XMC-2’s DACs. The one experience that I had when my buddy brought over his BAT VK33SE and his Denafrips Terminator over for a little side by side test, showed that a high end preamp can be vastly superior to the XMC2. The DAC comparison showed that the Denafrips was a little better. But the preamp was a “night and day” difference in my opinion. Still, I walked away saying, “well while there is definitely another level here the XMC2 still sounds pretty darn good”. I wasn’t compelled enough to change my electronics, instead I upgraded my speakers which I thought made a bigger overall impact to my system. So you used the Denaphrips with both the XMC2 and The BAT? We’re you able to use the BAT with home theater bypass? I thought the preamp might make a greater difference than the DAC. The Terminator is a great DAC and it is DSD capable. If the XMC-2 DAC and Terminator are close it is maddening because Emotive has not implemented DSD over USB. Had they done that Changing DACs would be hard to justify. I have a Theta Gen. 5a DAC which is limited to playing CD quality files and it is definitely better on the bass end. Much more visceral and powerful. But the preamp is another matter. What differences stood out to you with the preamp? |
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Post by audiobill on Jan 24, 2022 18:37:01 GMT -5
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Jan 24, 2022 20:05:42 GMT -5
The one experience that I had when my buddy brought over his BAT VK33SE and his Denafrips Terminator over for a little side by side test, showed that a high end preamp can be vastly superior to the XMC2. The DAC comparison showed that the Denafrips was a little better. But the preamp was a “night and day” difference in my opinion. Still, I walked away saying, “well while there is definitely another level here the XMC2 still sounds pretty darn good”. I wasn’t compelled enough to change my electronics, instead I upgraded my speakers which I thought made a bigger overall impact to my system. So you used the Denaphrips with both the XMC2 and The BAT? We’re you able to use the BAT with home theater bypass? I thought the preamp might make a greater difference than the DAC. The Terminator is a great DAC and it is DSD capable. If the XMC-2 DAC and Terminator are close it is maddening because Emotive has not implemented DSD over USB. Had they done that Changing DACs would be hard to justify. I have a Theta Gen. 5a DAC which is limited to playing CD quality files and it is definitely better on the bass end. Much more visceral and powerful. But the preamp is another matter. What differences stood out to you with the preamp? Yes. We first tested the DACs so we ran with XMC2 with no external DAC in reference stereo mode then added the Denafrips to balanced in. Winner Denafrips. Then we compared this to the Denafrips / BAT combo. Winner Denafrips/BAT combo. The biggest difference with the preamp was bass, better sound stage and clarity. The BAT VK33SE is a great preamp but it retails for $10k. My buddy is a little nuts about 2 channel. $4500 DAC, $10k preamp and $15k amp. We do have the same speakers though in the salons and I have a better room. But he has the means so why not? It’s amazing how well built these Theta products are. Obviously no longer state of the art but still very serviceable. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Jan 24, 2022 20:08:31 GMT -5
Yes! You can say that again. Lol! I was saying something similar to my buddy who got a little irritated and brought his gear over to show me and shut me up. And it worked 😬 |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 24, 2022 22:18:05 GMT -5
So you used the Denaphrips with both the XMC2 and The BAT? We’re you able to use the BAT with home theater bypass? I thought the preamp might make a greater difference than the DAC. The Terminator is a great DAC and it is DSD capable. If the XMC-2 DAC and Terminator are close it is maddening because Emotive has not implemented DSD over USB. Had they done that Changing DACs would be hard to justify. I have a Theta Gen. 5a DAC which is limited to playing CD quality files and it is definitely better on the bass end. Much more visceral and powerful. But the preamp is another matter. What differences stood out to you with the preamp? Yes. We first tested the DACs so we ran with XMC2 with no external DAC in reference stereo mode then added the Denafrips to balanced in. Winner Denafrips. Then we compared this to the Denafrips / BAT combo. Winner Denafrips/BAT combo. The biggest difference with the preamp was bass, better sound stage and clarity. The BAT VK33SE is a great preamp but it retails for $10k. My buddy is a little nuts about 2 channel. $4500 DAC, $10k preamp and $15k amp. We do have the same speakers though in the salons and I have a better room. But he has the means so why not? It’s amazing how well built these Theta products are. Obviously no longer state of the art but still very serviceable. Thanks for the detailed explanation. It is interesting that my 1994 model Theta Gen.Va is still capable. I think the Theta’s are just super quiet because of their outrageous parts quality. The bass from the Theta is definitely superior to that of the XMC-2’s DAC. There is no doubt the XMC-2 is a fine sounding processor and remarkably good for stereo, but it does not have the bass impact of my old Theta DAC. Admittedly, it has been a long time since I used an all Bryston system with their basic 1-B preamp, and sonic memory is questionable, but to the best of my recollection the Bryston 1-B and Theta was better in most ways than the XMC-2. However, as a processor the XMC-2 and other processors of its generation by Emotiva sound far better than any processor close to its price, that I have heard. To make a long story shorter I thought that if my old DAC was better than the DAC in the XMC-2 for PCM it might be worth a try to see what modern DACs that could play high res music and DSD could do in conjunction with the XMC-2. Then I heard a Primaluna Preamp and heard of the Rogue equipment and wondered what they could add since they both have home theater bypass capability. The XMC-2 is great for home theater, but it cannot play my large DSD collection and the sample rate used for Dirac downsamples all my high res PCM files which is very disappointing. If the Dirac sample rate was higher and DSD over USB was implemented I would have less reason to upgrade, but as is I thought adding a stereo preamp and DAC might be worth investigating. I really appreciate your comments. |
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Post by fbczar on Jan 24, 2022 22:59:26 GMT -5
How would you compare your C2600 to your XPS-1 ? I am especially interested since you use Magneplanar 3.6’s. |
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Post by audiobill on Jan 24, 2022 23:04:26 GMT -5
I haven’t heard the XPS-1 with my current cartridge, a Dynavector moving coil but this.comparison may be interesting. Each of the phono preamps in the c2600 uses separate tubes (different gain circuits). Will try this out and report back!
Btw, I had the Theta Gen va, liked it but the dac in the c2600 is more transparent. My thinking is that the robust power supply and tubed output stage in the c2600 beats those circuits in most dacs.
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Post by creimes on Jan 25, 2022 2:11:03 GMT -5
Well the XMC-2 is a pre/pro costing $3000 so of course it won't sound as good as something that costs $8000, $9000, $10,000 or even $35,000 dollars but where does it actually end. I would love to hear something like that Bat preamp but I have nowhere even remotely close to the funds to buy it myself, and I have been into actual Audio shops and it's rare someone would ever even acknowledge my presence let alone let me listen to anything haha, if anyone has a Bat VK33se they would sen my way to audition in my room I would accept  |
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