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Post by leonski on Jun 6, 2022 0:33:15 GMT -5
For SURE. Big room? More power. And speakers which perhaps are capable of higher output?
New KLIPSCH Jubilee speaker? 125db which given the sensitivity of over 105db should not require more than 15 or 20 good watts.
But these are huge, horn loaded monsters and would not even fit IN thru the door to my house....
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 6, 2022 1:19:44 GMT -5
In most cases (surround and Atmos) the amps I’m considering will provide the same or less power than I have now (currently have 200 WPC for surround, and 140 WPC for Atmos), The 252 would give them all about 125 WPC. The LCR and potential Wides will almost double, but it’s not like you can choose any power you want. In the Hypex line it goes from roughly 130 WPC to 350, IMO 130 isn’t enough for LCR, so I jump to 350, more than enough.
I’m not considering new speakers at the moment, but if I saw something I liked I’d not be opposed to it, SPL would not be the reason.
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Post by housetech on Jun 6, 2022 9:29:49 GMT -5
But you are spot-on with the idea that people overestimate the amount of power they really need. It makes me nuts to see huge monoblocks paired with 94db sensitive speakers...... Hey Leonski, is this what you're referring to ? lol In my dreams If $ were no object, I'ld be anal...kinda like that. |
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Post by housetech on Jun 6, 2022 9:54:53 GMT -5
For SURE. Big room? More power. And speakers which perhaps are capable of higher output? New KLIPSCH Jubilee speaker? 125db which given the sensitivity of over 105db should not require more than 15 or 20 good watts. But these are huge, horn loaded monsters and would not even fit IN thru the door to my house.... Those Jubilee speakers come with active xovers. A guy was selling some rental properties and invited me to his residence to talk business. Once he knew I loved audio, took me into his music room to hear some B&W Diamond with active ($2500 each at the time) xovers, with 500 watt monoblocks and they blew me away. I'm guessing, but that system cost as much or more than one of the houses I wanted to buy. No, I didn't buy- price was near full retail & wouldn't give me the terms I needed., but it was a fun visit. Ever since, I'm sold on active xovers. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 6, 2022 19:07:03 GMT -5
So Buckeye and VTV both offer the configs and sizes that work for me, an 8 channel NC252MP and a 6 channel NC502MP. VTV has both units in a 2RU package, Buckeye has the 252 in 2RU, and the 502 in a 3RU, both configs will fit in my HT Amp cubbie. Both Dylan at Buckeye and Warren at VTV have been helpful and responsive to my questions, and both are made in Ohio. The Buckeyes are a bit less expensive, have an Auto On/Off feature, and a clipping light, the VTVs look nicer to me and overall take up less space. The deciding factor however is this; I can get the VTVs in 2 to 3 weeks, the Buckeyes would be about 4 months. So I’m putting an order in this week for the VTVs, I’ll keep you posted.
Oh, should have an XPA-7 G3 for sale by the end of the month.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 16, 2022 5:34:49 GMT -5
Too many projects going on, I was just reminded I didn’t post the final outcome, a pair of VTVs now occupy my amp cubby.  |
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Post by 405x5 on Jul 17, 2022 8:52:35 GMT -5
But you are spot-on with the idea that people overestimate the amount of power they really need. It makes me nuts to see huge monoblocks paired with 94db sensitive speakers...... Hey Leonski, is this what you're referring to ? lol In my dreams If $ were no object, I'ld be anal...kinda like that. That “Audiophile” video, somehow reminded me of seeing Andres Segovia, (above link attached). The difference between the above video and the concert I attended was that there were probably a few thousand well behaved fans there that waited until it was quiet enough in the venue that you could hear a pin drop…..Necessary because Andres played on that stool with NO amplification. No such thing yet as cellphones, no distractions etc. I listened intently and got where he was coming from. The point?? Not even sure myself except some are Hell bent on spending untold change if they have the means, then plop themselves down expecting to hear “something”. Money has a way of ripping away that which is most important regarding music……. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 17, 2022 10:11:42 GMT -5
One of the reasons I like the VTV amps is getting (up to) eight channels in a ~ 2RU form factor. However, with two of them stacked, this put a lot of rear connections densely packed down at the bottom of the credenza. In order to make hookup easier (and increase airflow), I bought some taller feet on Amazon, then doubled them up two high on each amp. These pics show the feet more clearly than the cubby pic, though in these photos I experimented with three high on the bottom amp (the original aluminum feet painted black at the bottom). I decided two pucks on each amp worked best, and in the end I have 13 channels (with a potential of 16), comfortably spaced in the same cubby where I’d crammed 11 channels previously (actually I could add a third amp for a total of 24 channels if needed). I will also mention that VTV’s chassis sizes are not quite standard, and to make up for the shorter height they are deep; the website isn’t well written in describing this, however Warren is very friendly and I hope my questions will get him to update his specsheets a bit. Another word of caution (and this one annoys me to no end), his basic specs are all at 4 Ω (when 8 Ω has been the industry standard my entire lifetime). He also relies on the module manufacturer’s product sheets to give you most details, and these weren’t written for consumers — to this end both Warren at VTV and Dylan at Buckeye misquoted idle power consumption of the Hypex modules, as it requires adding power from two different specs (Warren acknowledged his error, Dylan didn’t). As mentioned above I also prefer the looks of the VTV amps over Buckeye.   |
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Post by jbrunwa on Jul 17, 2022 12:08:56 GMT -5
The VTV amps look great! I’ve been running a pair of Buckeye 6-channel NC502MP amps for about 10 months and they have been working great. I like how each stereo amp is almost completely independent so if one ever fails I will just replace the failed module, assuming that compatible modules continue to be available for the foreseeable future.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 17, 2022 18:46:22 GMT -5
The VTV amps look great! I’ve been running a pair of Buckeye 6-channel NC502MP amps for about 10 months and they have been working great. I like how each stereo amp is almost completely independent so if one ever fails I will just replace the failed module, assuming that compatible modules continue to be available for the foreseeable future. The top amp is the same as yours, 6x502 (LCRW), the bottom is 8x252 (Surround & Heights). I agree, should be easy to repair yourself, if as you say, we can still get modules. I don’t have my wides hooked up yet so I’ve disconnected one module. For those following along, here’s the inside of the 6 x Hypex NC502MP …  |
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Post by leonski on Jul 18, 2022 0:36:50 GMT -5
Modules have sort of revived the DIY industry.
I wish the speaker leads from the module were somehow color coded.....but that' might just be ME.....
Buying the right chassis in this case is about 1/2 the battle. Getting the power end of things all in one is also a good deal. Right fit of switch and AC input......
For example? VTA wjhp makes 3x different power amp kits, all tube, made a fair copy of the original Dynaco part, but used a heavier guage of STAINLESS which
is a lifetime part. Most of the originals are getting rusty and regardless of rebuilds / refurbs are showing their age....
Bruno did some fine work for Hypex.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 18, 2022 11:48:46 GMT -5
Modules have sort of revived the DIY industry. I wish the speaker leads from the module were somehow color coded.....but that' might just be ME..... Buying the right chassis in this case is about 1/2 the battle. Getting the power end of things all in one is also a good deal. Right fit of switch and AC input...... For example? VTA wjhp makes 3x different power amp kits, all tube, made a fair copy of the original Dynaco part, but used a heavier guage of STAINLESS which is a lifetime part. Most of the originals are getting rusty and regardless of rebuilds / refurbs are showing their age.... Bruno did some fine work for Hypex. Yes, I’m not sure what the correct term is for these guys who essentially build kits. To be fair however, they do have to find a supplier for the chassis, XLRs, binding posts (or SpeakOn), wire, switches, triggers, feet, boxes, etc. Certainly they are ‘manufacturers’, but have to have some electronic’s skills as well, though not necessarily design. I wouldn’t mind color coded wires, though that’s another part to stock and some of these guys are really trying to hold costs down (once connected it’s easy enough to see which wire is connected to the red terminal). I think in some cases they are learning where ‘skimping’ doesn’t pay off, and also maybe where spending more on a faceplate that looks better attracts some part of the market. It’s a balancing act. I suppose some owners might even do some home DIY and swap out the internal speaker leads with designer color coded unubtainium (or whatever the buzz-wire of the day is). As mentioned above the modules do allow for easy replacement, and possibly even to repurpose a module in a different chassis should future needs change, maybe cut back on channels in the home theatre, and build a two channel amp out of it. Lots of possibilities. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Jul 18, 2022 13:51:15 GMT -5
You DO understand that, if you put a 2 Ohm resistor in series with the speaker, you will drop the effective DAMPING FACTOR of the amp WAY DOWN for those speakers, right? With that resistor in series your amplifier will have an effective damping factor of 4.0 with an 8 Ohm speaker and a DF of 2.0 with a 4 Ohm speaker. Looking back from the speaker the resistance of your speaker cable and that series resistor are added to the effective output impedance of the amplifier. And, with a 4 Ohm speaker, an amp with an effective output impedance of 2 Ohms has a damping factor of 2.0 This is how you make a solid state amplifier sound a lot like a tube amp... but it's probably not what you were looking for here. (The old Carver Sunfire amps used a 1 Ohm series resistor on their "current outputs".) I have the Monoprice 450 and it has the auto on/off, and it's problematic ... at least as I'm using it for my rear surrounds. The problem on the Monoprice is you can't defeat that feature. And since rear surrounds don't always have enough signal all the time during a movie, they're always shutting off and then coming on with a delay. Just something to think about. Some weird solution? Put a 10 watt / 2 ohm non-inductive resistor in series with the speaker. Than turn up the level to where it belongs and that should work? |
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Post by leonski on Jul 18, 2022 14:04:54 GMT -5
You DO understand that, if you put a 2 Ohm resistor in series with the speaker, you will drop the effective DAMPING FACTOR of the amp WAY DOWN for those speakers, right? With that resistor in series your amplifier will have an effective damping factor of 4.0 with an 8 Ohm speaker and a DF of 2.0 with a 4 Ohm speaker. Looking back from the speaker the resistance of your speaker cable and that series resistor are added to the effective output impedance of the amplifier. And, with a 4 Ohm speaker, an amp with an effective output impedance of 2 Ohms has a damping factor of 2.0 This is how you make a solid state amplifier sound a lot like a tube amp... but it's probably not what you were looking for here. (The old Carver Sunfire amps used a 1 Ohm series resistor on their "current outputs".) Some weird solution? Put a 10 watt / 2 ohm non-inductive resistor in series with the speaker. Than turn up the level to where it belongs and that should work? And a few speakers still sound best with such a low DF. Old School 'big box' speakers. Maybe even current Klipsch Corner Horns? And You're Right! I hadn't considered the drop in DF. Modern speakers seem to need a higher value....maybe over 50 or so, to sound best. But a BIG 'X' thru my suggestion...... |
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Post by jasonf on Jul 18, 2022 14:19:17 GMT -5
I'm running an Apollon Purify Stereo Mini (https://www.apollonaudio.com/apollon-1et400a-mini-stereo-amplifier/) and I think it's pretty awesome. It replaced my Emotiva XPA DR-2. While it's not as powerful, I personally find it to be more neutral and easier to listen to.
Not the cheapest option, but the build quality is STUNNING. Beautiful finish, and the entire thing is very dense and feels well build.
It would be great if Emo had something competitive - I'm kind of done with big giant boxes in my living room.
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Post by leonski on Jul 18, 2022 14:32:15 GMT -5
I'm running an Apollon Purify Stereo Mini (https://www.apollonaudio.com/apollon-1et400a-mini-stereo-amplifier/) and I think it's pretty awesome. It replaced my Emotiva XPA DR-2. While it's not as powerful, I personally find it to be more neutral and easier to listen to. Not the cheapest option, but the build quality is STUNNING. Beautiful finish, and the entire thing is very dense and feels well build. It would be great if Emo had something competitive - I'm kind of done with big giant boxes in my living room. EMO sold a B&O module amp as a mono. The PA-1 is still well regarded. And it was if not 'dirt cheap', than quite affordable...... you can go to the Hypex store for modules and power supplies. Wiring harness, and maybe even a case. Here's my take in the form of a block diagram, on an EnCore amp with a built-in MiniDSP to be used for a biamp speaker with external sub....... Point is? With all the available audio gear out there, you can Have Fun.......and get something useful at the same time. Attachments:
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 18, 2022 15:55:49 GMT -5
I'm running an Apollon Purify Stereo Mini (https://www.apollonaudio.com/apollon-1et400a-mini-stereo-amplifier/) and I think it's pretty awesome. It replaced my Emotiva XPA DR-2. While it's not as powerful, I personally find it to be more neutral and easier to listen to. Not the cheapest option, but the build quality is STUNNING. Beautiful finish, and the entire thing is very dense and feels well build. It would be great if Emo had something competitive - I'm kind of done with big giant boxes in my living room. I’ve heard good thing about the Purify modules, and Apollon’s quality is well regarded, glad you’re enjoying yours. I’m also interested in the Pascal L-PRO2S modules, don’t hear much talk, but see good specs, high power, low idle / heat, about the same price as the NC502. I’ve been expecting Emo to come out with a modular Class D version of the XPA series (but have no information that they are). For me it would need either a smaller chassis, or a more power at the highest density. In other words, if you put a stereo blade in each slot of the current XPA series you’d have 14 channels, that’s plenty, but 75 WPC isn’t enough, they need a stereo 200W blade. So maybe a choice of stereo blades, for instance, one based on the NC252 (~125WPC), and another based on the NC502 (~250WPC). There would probably be a limit on the latter unless they put dual 15A/20A connectors feeding it, but something like that would be attractive. I agree though on big (and especially heavy) amps, I’m done with them. Though I’m ok with the current XPA G3s with their lower weight, I’d just need more channels to buy another. I say this dreading the necessity to move my two VTL tube amps — at about 80 lbs each 😫 |
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,952
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Post by hemster on Jul 18, 2022 16:58:20 GMT -5
I agree with you AudioHTIT. I too am done with heavy behemoths for amps. Once I make my speaker selection, I will finalize my choice of amps. Will be class-D most likely. Without emitting heat and whirring fans. |
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Post by leonski on Jul 18, 2022 18:25:36 GMT -5
When you guys are done wiht you 'heavy behemoths' if it says 'Pass Labs' on it, I'll drop by for a pickup nearly anywhere in the lower 48.
Isn't the Purify another Bruno design?
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 18, 2022 19:30:49 GMT -5
When you guys are done wiht you 'heavy behemoths' if it says 'Pass Labs' on it, I'll drop by for a pickup nearly anywhere in the lower 48. Isn't the Purify another Bruno design? I do have one of the lighter Threshold’s with Nelson’s ‘name’ on it. Yes, I believe Bruno was involved with Purify, don’t know who did the Pascal. |
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