Post by KeithL on Jul 21, 2023 8:38:18 GMT -5
I don't disagree with you...
For many consumers a low-cost AVR is the cheapest option available.
And, for many others, even a really expensive AVR is the simplest and easiest option available.
I would point out that many people are moving to options like Sonos ...
Which is currently as close as you can get to "just an app that plays music"...
And the attraction there is clearly not cost but convenience...
(Each of those little boxes costs more than a low cost HTIB... and a house full of them costs more than even an expensive AVR.)
I would also point out that the consumer's perception of what constitutes "convenience" has also changed drastically over the years.
Many of us here would consider dropping a CD into the tray and hitting the Play button to be far more convenient than negotiating an App on our phones.
However, quite clearly, for modern folks "who live their lives on their phones", the exact opposite is true.
I'm personally part of "the computer culture"... which is different than both of those.
I tend to not want to bother to locate a specific CD to play...
But I've also never found a phone App that I find convenient to use either...
BUT, both at home, and here at the office, I always have a computer actually on and running nearby...
So, when I want to send an e-mail, I click on my e-mail program...
And, when I want to look at a document, I click on it...
So, for me, the most convenient way to play an album is to click on it, on that same computer, and have it play through a DAC...
(And, usually, when I want to watch a movie, I do exactly the same thing... click on the file.)
Good amps, which are better than ANY HT product will last thru several upgrade cycles lowering cost. A good HT level Pre-Pro MUST be less coin than the Denon.
I know its years, but the last time I just looked at the HT receiver isle (modest end, for sure) they all ran HOT....Some alarmngly so.
And to Snoman? the tech company I worked for kind of did a related thing. Suing other tech companies over PATENTs and INTELLECTUAL property is apparently a regular part of doing businsss.
The sale of much intellectual property and manufacturing rights TO Vishay started another round of lawyering up. I have no idea how all that nuttiness turned out.
What MOST players in manufacturing conform to are ISO standards and the periodic AUDIT by various organizations. I was thru half a dozen of them over the years.....As pleasant as a Colonoscopy.....
For many consumers a low-cost AVR is the cheapest option available.
And, for many others, even a really expensive AVR is the simplest and easiest option available.
I would point out that many people are moving to options like Sonos ...
Which is currently as close as you can get to "just an app that plays music"...
And the attraction there is clearly not cost but convenience...
(Each of those little boxes costs more than a low cost HTIB... and a house full of them costs more than even an expensive AVR.)
I would also point out that the consumer's perception of what constitutes "convenience" has also changed drastically over the years.
Many of us here would consider dropping a CD into the tray and hitting the Play button to be far more convenient than negotiating an App on our phones.
However, quite clearly, for modern folks "who live their lives on their phones", the exact opposite is true.
I'm personally part of "the computer culture"... which is different than both of those.
I tend to not want to bother to locate a specific CD to play...
But I've also never found a phone App that I find convenient to use either...
BUT, both at home, and here at the office, I always have a computer actually on and running nearby...
So, when I want to send an e-mail, I click on my e-mail program...
And, when I want to look at a document, I click on it...
So, for me, the most convenient way to play an album is to click on it, on that same computer, and have it play through a DAC...
(And, usually, when I want to watch a movie, I do exactly the same thing... click on the file.)
Can someone explain the attraction of the HT receiver? And at the stratospheric price of the new Denon 'flagship'? Given that this beast will be obsoleted in a year and technologically obsolete in 18 months?
Good amps, which are better than ANY HT product will last thru several upgrade cycles lowering cost. A good HT level Pre-Pro MUST be less coin than the Denon.
I know its years, but the last time I just looked at the HT receiver isle (modest end, for sure) they all ran HOT....Some alarmngly so.
And to Snoman? the tech company I worked for kind of did a related thing. Suing other tech companies over PATENTs and INTELLECTUAL property is apparently a regular part of doing businsss.
The sale of much intellectual property and manufacturing rights TO Vishay started another round of lawyering up. I have no idea how all that nuttiness turned out.
What MOST players in manufacturing conform to are ISO standards and the periodic AUDIT by various organizations. I was thru half a dozen of them over the years.....As pleasant as a Colonoscopy.....
The attraction of the HTR, AVR, or singular black box controlling everything is honestly more of a failure of consumer knowledge than anything else. No different than moths being attracted to light/flame, consumers chasing these products simply have absolutely no comprehension of audio, engineering or physics. This is of course, an assumption of all things being equal which we know, are not. Most consumers couldn't begin to grasp the difference between OFC and CCA or language related to harmonics and distortion, much less fathom entry level home theater equations like subwoofer size to room size. On top of lack of knowledge, add to the fact of wives chasing their perfect esthetic living room or even something as simple as not knowing how to work multiple remotes, we are left with the perfect scenario for a consumer to simply "lay down" at the first sales pitch. Who wants all those wires and complications, set up procedures that read like college text books well over 100 pages in length, and why on earth would I spend $30 per cable for some scam called 'XLR'? Manufactures pray on consumers being dumb, advertising campaigns succeed by disorienting those ignorant enough to fall for it.
I saw this first hand within Circuit City back in the day. We sold more Home Theater In-a-box units at our stores than separates 7 days a week. The masses do not care about audio quality and neither did company profits. The consumer shift from audio quality to cheap within the audio industry started about 20 years ago. Today, most will just about sacrifice their first born to achieve simplicity and convenience. My own wife wouldn't let me pair a $5,000 5.1 system to our bedroom TV because it meant three remotes. She eventually caved because I threatened to put it in the Kitchen, but I still had to consolidate remotes. This shift in esthetics over quality went into a free fall with the advent of MP3 honestly. Allowing consumers to have 80% of the real product (FLAC/LL/CD/Album/etc), while tricking them that it's the real deal turned into a trillion dollar business that no one could have imagined. One of the greatest laughs I still have today is that consumers actually believe the sticker in their cars representing some speaker brand is actually real and not in fact, just a piece of licensing the automaker paid while shoving some random $0.25 speaker product in the door manufactured by the cheapest bidder out of china. You think that's a McIntosh product in your 2023 Jeep eh? Pssst....licensing.
From a technology perspective, the flagship Denon was a joke even before it hit the shelves. The technology it represents is akin to buying a state of the art gaming computer, except the computer is 10 years old and someone simply installed new software in it and trippled the original MSRP. The A1H represents nothing new, except profits, but hey....you know, go Denon! Most consumers aren't even aware of the fact there is no real R&D over there and that Marantz is the same company, sorta, but not, but is---ish...something. Marantz gets the better products and represents "the Denon pre-pro line", except...they have their own AVRs also. Consolidation of manufactures gets confusing quickly, like did DEIH destroy both company integrities or was it their current owners, S.U.?
Consumers simply do not care and manufactures are happy to rake in the profits.