richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
|
Post by richb on Oct 15, 2022 15:18:31 GMT -5
I bought an Integra processor that was upgradable and marketed as the Nostradamus of processors. Guess what happened, no upgrade.  Realistically, a processor has a lifespan based on its components. After a time, the parts are discontinued, plants burn down, etc. As a result, part substitutions must be made, board layouts must change. Sometimes the changes cannot be realistically handled. Covid made this worse, part manufacturers and trimming their offerings. Also, lessons can be learned where the design could be made more reliable and upgrade path fortified. If the new line, produces a better product, especially in HDMI reliability, then I'm all for it. Arcam and JBL are releasing new versions and I suspect for similar reasons. Monoprice has gone dark. If you see new products then the vendor is showing commitment to the business, if not, then that is a bad sign. What I'd like to see from Emotiva is a trade-up option that works like Apple. You buy the new unit at full prices with trade in. After you receive the new unit, you have a couple of weeks to send in the trade-in for a credit. The credit is valued according to the attestation of the customer, but the final value depends on the condition of the unit sent back. - Rich |
|
richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
|
Post by richb on Oct 15, 2022 15:25:43 GMT -5
If only the sheet metal and front displays are the same, it is hardly worth keeping the version and adding a plus. Emotiva, if these are 4G then naming them that way makes sense. RMC-4 RMC-4L XMC-4 If the Asian 4 sounds like death is an issue, then you with RMC-5. As my old boss once asked, are numbers expensive?  - Rich |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Oct 15, 2022 16:44:54 GMT -5
I believe this is answered in the FAQ and in both cases it’s the higher price because you got your G3P at a discount, but that’s my interpretation of what Hair Nick wrote. That was my interpretation too. No complaints from me either way as I’m thankful to have an affordable upgrade path. The Marantz upgrade path is $7,000.00… 😂 But, but, but, you get a lot more gold thingies on the back of the AV10.  |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Oct 15, 2022 17:13:58 GMT -5
I bought an Integra processor that was upgradable and marketed as the Nostradamus of processors. Guess what happened, no upgrade. Realistically, a processor has a lifespan based on its components. After a time, the parts are discontinued, plants burn down, etc. As a result, part substitutions must be made, board layouts must change. Sometimes the changes cannot be realistically handled. Covid made this worse, part manufacturers and trimming their offerings. Also, lessons can be learned where the design could be made more reliable and upgrade path fortified. If the new line, produces a better product, especially in HDMI reliability, then I'm all for it. Arcam and JBL are releasing new versions and I suspect for similar reasons. Monoprice has gone dark. If you see new products then the vendor is showing commitment to the business, if not, then that is a bad sign. What I'd like to see from Emotiva is a trade-up option that works like Apple. You buy the new unit at full prices with trade in. After you receive the new unit, you have a couple of weeks to send in the trade-in for a credit. The credit is valued according to the attestation of the customer, but the final value depends on the condition of the unit sent back. - Rich Semiconductors.....and the few proprietary ones in any device.....are where the problem lies. Most of the rest is 'commodity' and will be available for a long time. Perhaps until the upgrades render it no longer worthwhile or useable. Parts have what is known as MTBF. Mean Time Between Failure. This is when they are used per manufacturers specificaiton. No over heating or driven with TOO high a voltage or some such. MTBF is usually a pretty high number. ALL new parts are cycled thru reliability labs prior to release and the first batch or more are tested to destruction. I didn't work that part of the process, but I think we used a 1000 hour burnin while subjected to operating voltages. Failures were TAKEN APART and figured out. Various advanced techniques were used for this analysis. IMO? A RESPONSIBLE company will 'eat' some of these parts and keep either complete circuit boards on hand (exchange / fix / recycle) or be able to change these parts. Problem is that what is called Surface Mount is a PIA and not something any tech....including me.....would want to get involved with. Special tools and GOOD eyesight are needed. |
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 15, 2022 18:49:48 GMT -5
If only the sheet metal and front displays are the same, it is hardly worth keeping the version and adding a plus. Emotiva, if these are 4G then naming them that way makes sense. RMC-4 RMC-4L XMC-4 If the Asian 4 sounds like death is an issue, then you with RMC-5. As my old boss once asked, are numbers expensive? - Rich I kinda made up the G4P just to distinguish the newer models, but I do see the logic of the “+” designation. If (as it seems to me) these new models are actually a realization of the original concept for the G3P, with an upgraded video board, then they could still be considered the same generation, with some pluses (2.1, web setup, streaming). The change of chipsets seems more of supply and programming decision, though somewhere they’re getting a big power boost. In any case G4P is convenient to write when posting, but not sure there’s anything generational here — as Atmos and 16 channels defined the 3rd Gen RMC-1/L and XMC-2 models as a new generation over the XMC-1. Adding a + may be an easy silk screen change too … but I’m ok with your naming campaign too! |
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 15, 2022 18:56:52 GMT -5
That was my interpretation too. No complaints from me either way as I’m thankful to have an affordable upgrade path. The Marantz upgrade path is $7,000.00… 😂 But, but, but, you get a lot more gold thingies on the back of the AV10. You prompted me to find a picture of the rear of an AV10, hadn’t see one one yet. Indeed they do have more RCAs as they give an RCA and XLR out for each channel. They are gold as well, though seem like surface mount as opposed to Tiffany style, so the gold isn’t as flashy, still like the Tiffany’s myself. |
|
|
|
Post by jim80z on Oct 15, 2022 19:40:11 GMT -5
Firstly thanks to those that demystified the UFL program for me. Now since people are sharing their journey to this point so we can get upgrade path answers here is mine. So : - I purchased my RMC-1 in late 2019 from a dealer here in Australia. AUD full price but a dealer discount that I obtained as I purchased a tonne of stuff from them (projector, XPAs, seats etc etc) as I built the theatre. - Emotiva withdrew distribution channels mid 2020 inc Australia ...... www.stereonet.com/au/news/emotiva-pulls-plug-on-global-distribution-partners-without-warning- Obtained the DIRAC kit directly from Emo with no issue at all. So some questions @hairnick/others: - Will Emotiva reintroduce a distributor in Au that we can use? Or maybe we can we use someone closer than the US maybe Philippines or Thailand (listed on Emo site as distributors)? - If not, the next Q is obviously what will the courier fees et al be? Estimate at this stage is fine. Also read below. - Now I would love for my actual unit to be updated but am not willing to wait weeks to get it back. Assume if I did get an upgrade it would be US$699 for my situation described above? - Now what if I wanted to upgrade to a full new unit ie not a refurbished return unit from someone else....will that cost me US$1099 or is this amount only for people getting an upgraded unit that didn't pay full price for their original unit? I like where richb was going above ie Apple example. Charge me higher price for a new unit plus whatever delivery costs, then I will reuse the boxes to send back my current unit. When Emo gets the old unit back they can credit me the difference. However this brings its own challenges: - how to deal with customs as they will charge me full duty on the new unit so somehow the package has to be listed and described (repair return, I don't know what is ok) so I pay duty on the true cost of the exchange - again the return courier fee (AU to US) will be interesting so as a suggestion maybe Emo can have their couriers extend their discounts to us? or we buy a label via Emo? Any other suggestions? |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Oct 15, 2022 19:42:27 GMT -5
But, but, but, you get a lot more gold thingies on the back of the AV10. You prompted me to find a picture of the rear of an AV10, hadn’t see one one yet. Indeed they do have more RCAs as they give an RCA and XLR out for each channel. They are gold as well, though seem like surface mount as opposed to Tiffany style, so the gold isn’t as flashy, still like the Tiffany’s myself. Yep. The Tiffany is a nice RCA connector. RCA's won't go away for a while, but my favorite low level analog connection is a gold Neutrik XLR. My favorite amp-speaker connector is a Speakon. All my component to processor connections are digital. All processor to amp connections are balanced analog Neutrik XLR. I would like to have digital connections between processor and amps. There will be legacy analog connections for some time, but they are on their way out. The boutique analog connector and wire people will have to find another career. |
|
|
|
Post by sebna on Oct 15, 2022 20:56:57 GMT -5
You prompted me to find a picture of the rear of an AV10, hadn’t see one one yet. Indeed they do have more RCAs as they give an RCA and XLR out for each channel. They are gold as well, though seem like surface mount as opposed to Tiffany style, so the gold isn’t as flashy, still like the Tiffany’s myself. Yep. The Tiffany is a nice RCA connector. RCA's won't go away for a while, but my favorite low level analog connection is a gold Neutrik XLR. My favorite amp-speaker connector is a Speakon. All my component to processor connections are digital. All processor to amp connections are balanced analog Neutrik XLR. I would like to have digital connections between processor and amps. There will be legacy analog connections for some time, but they are on their way out. The boutique analog connector and wire people will have to find another career. If you would do digital from pre to amp it would mean that now your every amp is effectively a processor with decoding DA stage. Why would you need or want digital to Amps? |
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 15, 2022 21:39:42 GMT -5
Firstly thanks to those that demystified the UFL program for me. Now since people are sharing their journey to this point so we can get upgrade path answers here is mine. So : - I purchased my RMC-1 in late 2019 from a dealer here in Australia. AUD full price but a dealer discount that I obtained as I purchased a tonne of stuff from them (projector, XPAs, seats etc etc) as I built the theatre. - Emotiva withdrew distribution channels mid 2020 inc Australia ...... www.stereonet.com/au/news/emotiva-pulls-plug-on-global-distribution-partners-without-warning- Obtained the DIRAC kit directly from Emo with no issue at all. So some questions @hairnick/others: - Will Emotiva reintroduce a distributor in Au that we can use? Or maybe we can we use someone closer than the US maybe Philippines or Thailand (listed on Emo site as distributors)? - If not, the next Q is obviously what will the courier fees et al be? Estimate at this stage is fine. Also read below. - Now I would love for my actual unit to be updated but am not willing to wait weeks to get it back. Assume if I did get an upgrade it would be US$699 for my situation described above? - Now what if I wanted to upgrade to a full new unit ie not a refurbished return unit from someone else....will that cost me US$1099 or is this amount only for people getting an upgraded unit that didn't pay full price for their original unit? I like where richb was going above ie Apple example. Charge me higher price for a new unit plus whatever delivery costs, then I will reuse the boxes to send back my current unit. When Emo gets the old unit back they can credit me the difference. However this brings its own challenges: - how to deal with customs as they will charge me full duty on the new unit so somehow the package has to be listed and described (repair return, I don't know what is ok) so I pay duty on the true cost of the exchange - again the return courier fee (AU to US) will be interesting so as a suggestion maybe Emo can have their couriers extend their discounts to us? or we buy a label via Emo? Any other suggestions?I think you — and anyone with questions from outside the US — fall into the FAQ Nick answered, which essentially says you’ll have to contact sales (email address in FAQ). I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t know the answers to all of these questions, on the other hand it’s good you’re asking them now as it will give them plenty of time to work on some of these issues. |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Oct 15, 2022 22:22:06 GMT -5
Yep. The Tiffany is a nice RCA connector. RCA's won't go away for a while, but my favorite low level analog connection is a gold Neutrik XLR. My favorite amp-speaker connector is a Speakon. All my component to processor connections are digital. All processor to amp connections are balanced analog Neutrik XLR. I would like to have digital connections between processor and amps. There will be legacy analog connections for some time, but they are on their way out. The boutique analog connector and wire people will have to find another career. If you would do digital from pre to amp it would mean that now your every amp is effectively a processor with decoding DA stage. Why would you need or want digital to Amps? I use digital amps. The RMC-1L does D/A. My amps do A/D. D/D eliminates the analog stages. Other versions of my amps are digital in. The amps have DSP speaker processing in the front ends. The amps handle delay, PEQ, shelving, 3 types of crossovers up to 8th order, limiting, monitoring of temperature voltage current and dynamic speaker impedance, built-in OLED GUI/OSD, input sensitivity options, output gain adjustment, USB connected web GUI, setup storage and recall by web GUI or local control, factory and user presets, more... My amps are rather primitive compared to some current offerings. I soft start five 4-ch amps off of one 15amp switched power strip, yet the total five amp capability is 12KW max output and the idle current draw of all five amps together is 4.5 amperes with PFC switching supplies. Maximum tolerable SPL output in my room requires no more than 5 amperes average from all five 4-ch. amps together. That means I'm drawing about 60W above idle at max tolerable SPL. Check out the current draw for a 50W stereo tube amp. My amps 'process' only when I require them to be processors - much like using mini-DSP for speaker processing. I use the amp processing for biamping LCR (and soon to be the surround channels too), and, for paralleling and processing amp channels to power the Subs. There are other commercial offerings with DSP in the amps but the push seems to be in the direction of a separate box for all the speaker processing and routing. See Q-SYS, DBX, mini-DSP for systems... others too. Even EMO sold a digital amp. D/A and A/D involves unneeded analog stages. D/D can eliminate the extra processing. A digital amp does not have an analog output stage. Look up Dante Audio for further research into current amp processing direction. A perfectly good way to do what I do with Emotiva amps would to run the outputs of the RMC into a speaker controller box, and then to your preferred Emotiva amps. But, the RMC is D/A. Speaker processor would be A/D/A. Amps would be A. I think most setups are currently like this. I would like to go D/D for the whole chain - not D/A/A/D/A/A. By the time we get to that, I will be too old to care anymore.  |
|
|
|
Post by jasonf on Oct 15, 2022 22:56:07 GMT -5
Our current target is summer. Dang. Well hopefully firmware 3.0 fixes some of my CEC problems or I'll probably check out the new Marantz AV 10. Long time Emo guy so I'll still follow the RMC no matter what PS - how about some new "RMA" amps to go along with the next processor that are at the next level? |
|
|
|
Post by aswiss on Oct 16, 2022 4:48:57 GMT -5
I just wrote a long mail to the Emo Sales Dept. asking for more detailed information about the upgrade path for NON-US customers like me. I always do a longtime planning for my setup. I also attached my invoice as requested, to have a qualified answer if and to what price I could Upgrade/Trade-In. I'm still not very happy with the situation, that I would not have a processor during this exchange time, which might be several weeks with shipping to USA or a EU-based Repair Center. In addition, I would have to pay taxes and customs fees again, which I have to add to the sum.
I'm looking forward to get some answers from Emotiva and wish you a happy Sunday. |
|
|
|
Post by logitech on Oct 16, 2022 5:35:55 GMT -5
Please keep us informed about their answer regarding European customers.
|
|
|
|
Post by sebna on Oct 16, 2022 6:22:46 GMT -5
If you would do digital from pre to amp it would mean that now your every amp is effectively a processor with decoding DA stage. Why would you need or want digital to Amps? I use digital amps. The RMC-1L does D/A. My amps do A/D. D/D eliminates the analog stages. Other versions of my amps are digital in. The amps have DSP speaker processing in the front ends. The amps handle delay, PEQ, shelving, 3 types of crossovers up to 8th order, limiting, monitoring of temperature voltage current and dynamic speaker impedance, built-in OLED GUI/OSD, input sensitivity options, output gain adjustment, USB connected web GUI, setup storage and recall by web GUI or local control, factory and user presets, more... My amps are rather primitive compared to some current offerings. I soft start five 4-ch amps off of one 15amp switched power strip, yet the total five amp capability is 12KW max output and the idle current draw of all five amps together is 4.5 amperes with PFC switching supplies. Maximum tolerable SPL output in my room requires no more than 5 amperes average from all five 4-ch. amps together. That means I'm drawing about 60W above idle at max tolerable SPL. Check out the current draw for a 50W stereo tube amp. My amps 'process' only when I require them to be processors - much like using mini-DSP for speaker processing. I use the amp processing for biamping LCR (and soon to be the surround channels too), and, for paralleling and processing amp channels to power the Subs. There are other commercial offerings with DSP in the amps but the push seems to be in the direction of a separate box for all the speaker processing and routing. See Q-SYS, DBX, mini-DSP for systems... others too. Even EMO sold a digital amp. D/A and A/D involves unneeded analog stages. D/D can eliminate the extra processing. A digital amp does not have an analog output stage. Look up Dante Audio for further research into current amp processing direction. A perfectly good way to do what I do with Emotiva amps would to run the outputs of the RMC into a speaker controller box, and then to your preferred Emotiva amps. But, the RMC is D/A. Speaker processor would be A/D/A. Amps would be A. I think most setups are currently like this. I would like to go D/D for the whole chain - not D/A/A/D/A/A. By the time we get to that, I will be too old to care anymore. I think you are misunderstanding things. By the looks of things you are confusing class-d with digital. D in class-d is not equal to digital signal at all. All amps that power drivers have to produce analogue signal, class-d is no different. So your pre does DA then your class-d accepts A and amplifies it to amplified A signal without any further ADA processing in it. Yes there are amps with built-in in processing which do ADA but that is degrading process. There are others that can do some processing in A domain but all of them need A signal on inputs. Amp that accepts D on input is not amp but procesor or should we just call it AVR  |
|
|
|
Post by jim80z on Oct 16, 2022 6:48:30 GMT -5
Firstly thanks to those that demystified the UFL program for me. Now since people are sharing their journey to this point so we can get upgrade path answers here is mine. So : - I purchased my RMC-1 in late 2019 from a dealer here in Australia. AUD full price but a dealer discount that I obtained as I purchased a tonne of stuff from them (projector, XPAs, seats etc etc) as I built the theatre. - Emotiva withdrew distribution channels mid 2020 inc Australia ...... www.stereonet.com/au/news/emotiva-pulls-plug-on-global-distribution-partners-without-warning- Obtained the DIRAC kit directly from Emo with no issue at all. So some questions @hairnick/others: - Will Emotiva reintroduce a distributor in Au that we can use? Or maybe we can we use someone closer than the US maybe Philippines or Thailand (listed on Emo site as distributors)? - If not, the next Q is obviously what will the courier fees et al be? Estimate at this stage is fine. Also read below. - Now I would love for my actual unit to be updated but am not willing to wait weeks to get it back. Assume if I did get an upgrade it would be US$699 for my situation described above? - Now what if I wanted to upgrade to a full new unit ie not a refurbished return unit from someone else....will that cost me US$1099 or is this amount only for people getting an upgraded unit that didn't pay full price for their original unit? I like where richb was going above ie Apple example. Charge me higher price for a new unit plus whatever delivery costs, then I will reuse the boxes to send back my current unit. When Emo gets the old unit back they can credit me the difference. However this brings its own challenges: - how to deal with customs as they will charge me full duty on the new unit so somehow the package has to be listed and described (repair return, I don't know what is ok) so I pay duty on the true cost of the exchange - again the return courier fee (AU to US) will be interesting so as a suggestion maybe Emo can have their couriers extend their discounts to us? or we buy a label via Emo? Any other suggestions?I think you — and anyone with questions from outside the US — fall into the FAQ Nick answered, which essentially says you’ll have to contact sales (email address in FAQ). I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t know the answers to all of these questions, on the other hand it’s good you’re asking them now as it will give them plenty of time to work on some of these issues. Yup that's the intent ie to get Emo thinking. If they can answer some items now great if not Im sure early next year they will have a better idea. |
|
|
|
Post by cwt on Oct 16, 2022 7:22:59 GMT -5
It would be a game changer if Emo could do a dante or aes67 type input module for the g4's but have many doubts until the g5's are released Yes class d is perenially described as a digital amp unfortunately . I much prefer switching amp that uses pwm [pulse width modulation ] or pdm ;yet another circuit type ,, I understand what is being described here is the inevitable eradication of analogue rcas and xlr's if only for the gain in back panel space [even a trinnov 32 is festooned with xlr's and rcas ] .This is good news for the multiple channels that the new object codecs require now and in the future .. What we will see soon enough is like the new storm audio ISP EVO which just turned up at CEDIA youtu.be/T2YxMHgSF84 |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Oct 16, 2022 8:18:20 GMT -5
I use digital amps. The RMC-1L does D/A. My amps do A/D. D/D eliminates the analog stages. Other versions of my amps are digital in. The amps have DSP speaker processing in the front ends. The amps handle delay, PEQ, shelving, 3 types of crossovers up to 8th order, limiting, monitoring of temperature voltage current and dynamic speaker impedance, built-in OLED GUI/OSD, input sensitivity options, output gain adjustment, USB connected web GUI, setup storage and recall by web GUI or local control, factory and user presets, more... My amps are rather primitive compared to some current offerings. I soft start five 4-ch amps off of one 15amp switched power strip, yet the total five amp capability is 12KW max output and the idle current draw of all five amps together is 4.5 amperes with PFC switching supplies. Maximum tolerable SPL output in my room requires no more than 5 amperes average from all five 4-ch. amps together. That means I'm drawing about 60W above idle at max tolerable SPL. Check out the current draw for a 50W stereo tube amp. My amps 'process' only when I require them to be processors - much like using mini-DSP for speaker processing. I use the amp processing for biamping LCR (and soon to be the surround channels too), and, for paralleling and processing amp channels to power the Subs. There are other commercial offerings with DSP in the amps but the push seems to be in the direction of a separate box for all the speaker processing and routing. See Q-SYS, DBX, mini-DSP for systems... others too. Even EMO sold a digital amp. D/A and A/D involves unneeded analog stages. D/D can eliminate the extra processing. A digital amp does not have an analog output stage. Look up Dante Audio for further research into current amp processing direction. A perfectly good way to do what I do with Emotiva amps would to run the outputs of the RMC into a speaker controller box, and then to your preferred Emotiva amps. But, the RMC is D/A. Speaker processor would be A/D/A. Amps would be A. I think most setups are currently like this. I would like to go D/D for the whole chain - not D/A/A/D/A/A. By the time we get to that, I will be too old to care anymore. I think you are misunderstanding things. By the looks of things you are confusing class-d with digital. D in class-d is not equal to digital signal at all. All amps that power drivers have to produce analogue signal, class-d is no different. So your pre does DA then your class-d accepts A and amplifies it to amplified A signal without any further ADA processing in it. Yes there are amps with built-in in processing which do ADA but that is degrading process. There are others that can do some processing in A domain but all of them need A signal on inputs. Amp that accepts D on input is not amp but procesor or should we just call it AVR I don't misunderstand things. I am trying to write a post, not a seminar. If you want to put all of the processing in one box, including the amplifiers, and call it an AVR, that's ok with me. Almost all of the processing we do is in the digital domain. Is there any analog signal processing in the RMC besides the volume control? Of course the output of a class D amp is analog. The way to get their is far different from a class A or AB fully analog audio amp. I think we both know that. All processing alters a signal. Some processing degrades a signal. Eliminating the analog stages in between the input signal and the output signal, in a system that massages that input signal in the digital domain, does not degrade anything by not introducing additional D/A and A/D stages. Additional D/A and A/D stages do address incompatibility and connection issues. Most of the input signals we use today are already in the digital domain. Perhaps we should call our entire systems a DAC with processing and power gain. Just a sophisticated D/A, except for legacy sources. ~~~~~ EDIT: I see that cwt clearly and succinctly wrote what I have been trying to say in too many words - www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2YxMHgSF84Guess I don't have to wait 10 years. It's here. |
|
|
|
Post by sebna on Oct 16, 2022 8:30:56 GMT -5
I am just not sure what to do. I am using an old Yamaha CX-A5000 with an XPA-3 11 channel, I am currently running 7.2 at the moment. I have a working Yamaha receiver I can use as a trade in. Plus, the ability to use Affirm to pay sweetens things even more. I just don't know what to do, I have gone through posts, reviews, and forum like this and Amir's. Since my TV is HDMI 2.1 and so is my HTPC, HDMI 2.1 is important to me! I am SOOOO confused on what to do! I have never seen such polarization. I only have so much money and I just want things to work. Emotiva can promise an upgrade path for $XXXX, but I do NOT want to feel totally frustrated with my purchase until an upgrade! I just want it to work when I plug it in. I am thinking of one the RMC units. At the end of the day, it comes down to comes to value for me. I am SOOOO confused, I have never seen so much like or hate on a unit!!! Even though it will me more, does it pay to wait for the new unit and then testing and reviews? Does it pay to buy the current RMC unit with some of its issues with the promise of an upgrade path? A little advice would be appreciated. I know there is a LOT of info in this thread, and I have gone through it. I would just like to read some succinct pros and cons from those own the units. I am quite aware at the end of the day the choice is mine, but I still want to hear from the folks who currently use them on what they would do if they had to do it ALL OVER again! Thanks in advance, I do realize this may come across redundant to a few here so please excuse that. I have sent you private message. |
|
|
|
Post by sebna on Oct 16, 2022 8:32:25 GMT -5
Please keep us informed about their answer regarding European customers. It seems that this forum is not great at flagging private messages I have sent you one, in case you have not noticed it.
Denon measures great and sounds terrible...
|
|
