KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,265
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Post by KeithL on Nov 11, 2024 17:56:32 GMT -5
To be quite honest there are several companies making very high end DAC chips these days... And, also to be quite honest, they are all capable of sounding really superb, or of sounding pretty bad... depending on the implementation. "Implementation" describes how the chip is used... like the analog circuitry around it and the power supply that powers it... which are all really important. Incidentally, if you're really curious, I would say that Burr Brown is pretty well known in audiophile circles... (Burr Brown is TI). Yes I am expecting sound quality improvements. They are using a new DAC - same as the RMC1+. I don’t know what else they changed but the gen4 is supposed to run pretty hot. I don’t think the balanced in will have any improvements but we will see. The sound from the XMC-2 and RMC1, for the front three channels was the same in the Gen 3 processors. While the DAC chips for the Gen 4 processors will all be the same they will use TI chips vs the AKM chips used in the Gen 3. I am not aware of any high end DACs using TI chips. AKM chips are used in a very large number of high end DACs. It will be interesting to see what the sound will be like. I am also unclear about the volume control that will be used. It does seem like the new Dirac setup will be nice. |
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Post by fbczar on Nov 12, 2024 0:24:48 GMT -5
Yes! Will the new sound better? All I know for sure is that the XMC-1 sounded more to my liking than the UMC-200, and the XMC-2 was even more to my liking than the XMC-1 (which shocked me at the time because I was so happy with the XMC-1). With the +Series, it may be getting into that last few percent area that may no longer be audible. If the + sounds different, whether it be darker or brighter, then I can adjust to my liking like I always do. I can also safely claim that the XMC-1 sounded better than the UMC-200 and that the XMC-2 sounds better than the XMC-1. How close can the G4P get to a very good dedicated 2 channel preamp? We shall see. Tough for any processor to match a dedicated 2 channel preamp for anything close to a reasonable price. A lot more is going on in a processor. Of course, in the case of Emotiva processors Dirac is included and that makes a huge difference, if you know how to use it. |
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Post by webmst007 on Nov 12, 2024 0:31:45 GMT -5
You're welcome Sayer 😁
Not all HDMI switchers are created equal.
And I've ( or I should say my IT dept when I ran one ) tried quite a few.
The HD Fury gear is pretty good.
Often a few are available second hand - I got one of mine from a user on this forum in fact. The Vertex 2 or More expensive VVRoom are 4 in 2 out which should do the job for your basic switching.
That's one output to your display and other to the G3P processor.
Switch inputs on phone app.
They have a lot of other advanced features about signal processing which is why I use one to tell my Epson Projector it's receiving a Dolby Vision picture so I can improve the picture. The switching is just a bonus.
Good Luck - if you have any other questions - just ask here - there's bound to be someone who can help you out.
I find this is one of the best forums around 😁👍💯.
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Post by fbczar on Nov 12, 2024 0:34:40 GMT -5
The sound from the XMC-2 and RMC1, for the front three channels was the same in the Gen 3 processors. While the DAC chips for the Gen 4 processors will all be the same they will use TI chips vs the AKM chips used in the Gen 3. I am not aware of any high end DACs using TI chips. AKM chips are used in a very large number of high end DACs. It will be interesting to see what the sound will be like. I am also unclear about the volume control that will be used. It does seem like the new Dirac setup will be nice. What real concerns do you have about the TI DAC chips, or the volume control? Do you have some evidence of bad function? Is it just a fear of the unknown? Edit - The DAC/audio board will run hotter - so we have been told. I expect to hear better sound. We were told Class A operation for the analog audio stages in a past podcast. Like I said I am unclear about the volume control type that will be used. The volume control in the Gen. 3 processors is excellent and is one reason for their great sound. I am concerned about the DAC chip choice because AKM has a great track record and is used by many top DAC manufacturers. Emotiva has always been a sound first company so they deserve the benefit of the doubt, but frankly the cost of the upgrade makes the decision difficult. Good to hear of the class A operation though. |
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 12, 2024 10:42:07 GMT -5
What real concerns do you have about the TI DAC chips, or the volume control? Do you have some evidence of bad function? Is it just a fear of the unknown? Edit - The DAC/audio board will run hotter - so we have been told. I expect to hear better sound. We were told Class A operation for the analog audio stages in a past podcast. Like I said I am unclear about the volume control type that will be used. The volume control in the Gen. 3 processors is excellent and is one reason for their great sound. I am concerned about the DAC chip choice because AKM has a great track record and is used by many top DAC manufacturers. Emotiva has always been a sound first company so they deserve the benefit of the doubt, but frankly the cost of the upgrade makes the decision difficult. Good to hear of the class A operation though. I'm unclear about how many mm thick the case will be; and how many um of gold is on the Tiffany connectors. I've heard rumors that the case and the Tiffany connectors are actually made by TI... oh the horror! /s We can worry about so many inconsequential things. Over the years, I've done it too. If Emotiva made the case out of a machined block of aluminum, I'll bet some reviewer would say it improves the analog sound, or that the DACs have less jitter because of the thicker case. |
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Post by fbczar on Nov 12, 2024 17:03:19 GMT -5
Like I said I am unclear about the volume control type that will be used. The volume control in the Gen. 3 processors is excellent and is one reason for their great sound. I am concerned about the DAC chip choice because AKM has a great track record and is used by many top DAC manufacturers. Emotiva has always been a sound first company so they deserve the benefit of the doubt, but frankly the cost of the upgrade makes the decision difficult. Good to hear of the class A operation though. I'm unclear about how many mm thick the case will be; and how many um of gold is on the Tiffany connectors. I've heard rumors that the case and the Tiffany connectors are actually made by TI... oh the horror! /s We can worry about so many inconsequential things. Over the years, I've done it too. If Emotiva made the case out of a machined block of aluminum, I'll bet some reviewer would say it improves the analog sound, or that the DACs have less jitter because of the thicker case. Case thickness and connectors hardly equate to DAC chips and volume controls, but whatever. |
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 12, 2024 18:31:31 GMT -5
I'm unclear about how many mm thick the case will be; and how many um of gold is on the Tiffany connectors. I've heard rumors that the case and the Tiffany connectors are actually made by TI... oh the horror! /s We can worry about so many inconsequential things. Over the years, I've done it too. If Emotiva made the case out of a machined block of aluminum, I'll bet some reviewer would say it improves the analog sound, or that the DACs have less jitter because of the thicker case. Case thickness and connectors hardly equate to DAC chips and volume controls, but whatever. If you have some real information, let us know. You don't have any. Do you? Your worrying means nothing because you have nothing of consequence to add. |
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Post by fbczar on Nov 13, 2024 0:15:34 GMT -5
Case thickness and connectors hardly equate to DAC chips and volume controls, but whatever. If you have some real information, let us know. You don't have any. Do you? Your worrying means nothing because you have nothing of consequence to add. My bad. Your history here should have been indication enough that any conversation with you will eventually degrade into an insult session. Lesson learned. |
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 13, 2024 0:39:27 GMT -5
If you have some real information, let us know. You don't have any. Do you? Your worrying means nothing because you have nothing of consequence to add. My bad. Your history here should have been indication enough that any conversation with you will eventually degrade into an insult session. Lesson learned. Do you have any information about the DAC chips, or the volume controls, to show there is a problem? If you have some real information about the future of G4P, let us know. Being worried that there might be a problem with DACs or volume controls does not constitute a problem with DACs or volume controls. |
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Post by gunslingerfin on Nov 13, 2024 7:57:07 GMT -5
What real concerns do you have about the TI DAC chips, or the volume control? Do you have some evidence of bad function? Is it just a fear of the unknown? Edit - The DAC/audio board will run hotter - so we have been told. I expect to hear better sound. We were told Class A operation for the analog audio stages in a past podcast. ... I am concerned about the DAC chip choice because AKM has a great track record and is used by many top DAC manufacturers... You think that Burr-Brown does not have good enough track record and manufacturers like (including, but not limited to) Marantz, Denon, Naim, Exposure, NAD, Onkyo, Yamaha are not top enough? |
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Post by doc1963 on Nov 13, 2024 9:09:58 GMT -5
... I am concerned about the DAC chip choice because AKM has a great track record and is used by many top DAC manufacturers... You think that Burr-Brown does not have good enough track record and manufacturers like (including, but not limited to) Marantz, Denon, Naim, Exposure, NAD, Onkyo, Yamaha are not top enough? I agree with you... Just because Burr-Brown isn't in the current "flavor of the month club", doesn't make it an under performer or a bad choice. Some might not remember, or have the history with Emotiva, but the XMC-1 used Burr-Brown DACs. I don't remember anyone questioning their choice of DACs or the quality of the sound. The XMC-1 was a very well respected processor in the audio circles if for nothing more than its sonic qualities. Some might say that they think the XMC-2 sounds a little better, but that might lean more towards the fact of how the AKM DACs were implemented (using that special "fully balanced mono mode" across the front three channels) rather than the DAC selection itself. Emotiva has always used very high quality digitally controlled ladders to control the volume in the analog domain and I would expect that this practice would continue. Emotiva has always been a "sound quality first" company and given that, I'm not concerned. Getting software that is as bug free as possible would be something different...  |
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Post by foggy1956 on Nov 13, 2024 10:00:44 GMT -5
You think that Burr-Brown does not have good enough track record and manufacturers like (including, but not limited to) Marantz, Denon, Naim, Exposure, NAD, Onkyo, Yamaha are not top enough? I agree with you... Just because Burr-Brown isn't in the current "flavor of the month club", doesn't make it an under performer or a bad choice. Some might not remember, or have the history with Emotiva, but the XMC-1 used Burr-Brown DACs. I don't remember anyone questioning their choice of DACs or the quality of the sound. The XMC-1 was a very well respected processor in the audio circles if for nothing more than its sonic qualities. Some might say that they think the XMC-2 sounds a little better, but that might lean more towards the fact of how the AKM DACs were implemented (using that special "fully balanced mono mode" across the front three channels) rather than the DAC selection itself. Emotiva has always used very high quality digitally controlled ladders to control the volume in the analog domain and I would expect that this practice would continue. Emotiva has always been a "sound quality first" company and given that, I'm not concerned. Getting software that is as bug free as possible would be something different... I do think that most people's concerns stem from the fact that after so much time we know very little about what this processor will be capable of. |
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Lsc
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 3,435
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Post by Lsc on Nov 13, 2024 10:37:41 GMT -5
I agree with you... Just because Burr-Brown isn't in the current "flavor of the month club", doesn't make it an under performer or a bad choice. Some might not remember, or have the history with Emotiva, but the XMC-1 used Burr-Brown DACs. I don't remember anyone questioning their choice of DACs or the quality of the sound. The XMC-1 was a very well respected processor in the audio circles if for nothing more than its sonic qualities. Some might say that they think the XMC-2 sounds a little better, but that might lean more towards the fact of how the AKM DACs were implemented (using that special "fully balanced mono mode" across the front three channels) rather than the DAC selection itself. Emotiva has always used very high quality digitally controlled ladders to control the volume in the analog domain and I would expect that this practice would continue. Emotiva has always been a "sound quality first" company and given that, I'm not concerned. Getting software that is as bug free as possible would be something different... I do think that most people's concerns stem from the fact that after so much time we know very little about what this processor will be capable of. Agreed, we haven’t gotten any confirmation on the sound quality improvements but this latest conversation was around the G4P sounding worse than the G3P due to DAC choices. I will have to wait until user feedback or reviews on this matter. I haven’t heard anything new news on shipment timeline |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Nov 13, 2024 11:12:12 GMT -5
Those are totally unfounded conversations.
Russ
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Post by fbczar on Nov 13, 2024 23:40:19 GMT -5
... I am concerned about the DAC chip choice because AKM has a great track record and is used by many top DAC manufacturers... You think that Burr-Brown does not have good enough track record and manufacturers like (including, but not limited to) Marantz, Denon, Naim, Exposure, NAD, Onkyo, Yamaha are not top enough? We were talking about the potential for a sound upgrade in the Gen. 4 Emotiva processors and discussing TI DACs vs AKM DACs not Burr Brown. I did not mention Burr-Brown and made no comment relative to Burr Brown. To my knowledge Burr Brown has not been mentioned by Emotiva relative to the Gen. 4 processors. You edited my post deceptively and eliminated the context. I said AKM had a strong track record and was used by many high end DAC manufacturers and that I could not find high end DAC manufacturers that presently used TI. |
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Post by jasonf on Nov 13, 2024 23:49:39 GMT -5
You think that Burr-Brown does not have good enough track record and manufacturers like (including, but not limited to) Marantz, Denon, Naim, Exposure, NAD, Onkyo, Yamaha are not top enough? We were talking about the potential for a sound upgrade in the Gen. 4 Emotiva processors and discussing TI DACs vs AKM DACs not Burr Brown. I did not mention Burr-Brown and made no comment relative to Burr Brown. To my knowledge Burr Brown has not been mentioned by Emotiva relative to the Gen. 4 processors. You edited my post deceptively and eliminated the context. I said AKM had a strong track record and was used by many high end DAC manufacturers and that I could not find high end DAC manufacturers that presently used TI. Since you don't seem to be reading the thread, I'll repeat it. TI acquired Burr Brown many years ago - they are the same thing. The safe choices lately are AKM and ESS, but the landscape is always changing. |
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Post by fbczar on Nov 14, 2024 0:33:46 GMT -5
We were talking about the potential for a sound upgrade in the Gen. 4 Emotiva processors and discussing TI DACs vs AKM DACs not Burr Brown. I did not mention Burr-Brown and made no comment relative to Burr Brown. To my knowledge Burr Brown has not been mentioned by Emotiva relative to the Gen. 4 processors. You edited my post deceptively and eliminated the context. I said AKM had a strong track record and was used by many high end DAC manufacturers and that I could not find high end DAC manufacturers that presently used TI. Since you don't seem to be reading the thread, I'll repeat it. TI acquired Burr Brown many years ago - they are the same thing. The safe choices lately are AKM and ESS, but the landscape is always changing. Ok. Let’s include Burr Brown and TI since they are both made by TI. AKM and ESS, as you note, are safe choices. They are used in lots of high end DACs. I cannot find a TI DAC chip that is used by a high end DAC manufacturer. TI may be great, but they are not popular. So, when we are talking about a sound upgrade, if there is one in the Gen.4 processors, the choice of TI adds to the mystery whereas ESS and AKM chips seem to fit in a certain quality category. As I also said in my post Emotiva has always been a sound first company so they deserve the benefit of the doubt. We will not know what is what until some Gen.4 units can be reviewed. As to the other manufacturers you mentioned, like Denon, Marantz, etc., I think they are all AKM or ESS in their high end units. |
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 14, 2024 8:17:53 GMT -5
You think that Burr-Brown does not have good enough track record and manufacturers like (including, but not limited to) Marantz, Denon, Naim, Exposure, NAD, Onkyo, Yamaha are not top enough? We were talking about the potential for a sound upgrade in the Gen. 4 Emotiva processors and discussing TI DACs vs AKM DACs not Burr Brown. I did not mention Burr-Brown and made no comment relative to Burr Brown. To my knowledge Burr Brown has not been mentioned by Emotiva relative to the Gen. 4 processors. You edited my post deceptively and eliminated the context. I said AKM had a strong track record and was used by many high end DAC manufacturers and that I could not find high end DAC manufacturers that presently used TI. Read the rest of KeithL post too. |
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 14, 2024 8:31:19 GMT -5
Since you don't seem to be reading the thread, I'll repeat it. TI acquired Burr Brown many years ago - they are the same thing. The safe choices lately are AKM and ESS, but the landscape is always changing. Ok. Let’s include Burr Brown and TI since they are both made by TI. AKM and ESS, as you note, are safe choices. They are used in lots of high end DACs. I cannot find a TI DAC chip that is used by a high end DAC manufacturer. TI may be great, but they are not popular. So, when we are talking about a sound upgrade, if there is one in the Gen.4 processors, the choice of TI adds to the mystery whereas ESS and AKM chips seem to fit in a certain quality category. As I also said in my post Emotiva has always been a sound first company so they deserve the benefit of the doubt. We will not know what is what until some Gen.4 units can be reviewed. As to the other manufacturers you mentioned, like Denon, Marantz, etc., I think they are all AKM or ESS in their high end units. I have 3 implementations of ESS DACs - oppo 205; Emotiva XDA-3; and Benchmark DAC3 HGC. They all sound different. I listed them in ascending order of sound quality. You are beating a dead horse before it's been born. |
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Post by doc1963 on Nov 14, 2024 9:39:20 GMT -5
Ok. Let’s include Burr Brown and TI since they are both made by TI. AKM and ESS, as you note, are safe choices. They are used in lots of high end DACs. I cannot find a TI DAC chip that is used by a high end DAC manufacturer. TI may be great, but they are not popular. So, when we are talking about a sound upgrade, if there is one in the Gen.4 processors, the choice of TI adds to the mystery whereas ESS and AKM chips seem to fit in a certain quality category. As I also said in my post Emotiva has always been a sound first company so they deserve the benefit of the doubt. We will not know what is what until some Gen.4 units can be reviewed. As to the other manufacturers you mentioned, like Denon, Marantz, etc., I think they are all AKM or ESS in their high end units. I have 3 implementations of ESS DACs - oppo 205; Emotiva XDA-3; and Benchmark DAC3 HGC. They all sound different. I listed them in ascending order of sound quality. You are beating a dead horse before it's been born. And to add to your point, I own both an RMC-1L and a Marantz AV8805. Both use the same AKM DAC, but sound entirely different. When playing music, they're "night vs day" different. So, I agree... it does come down to "how" the DAC is implemented and the quality of the stages that follow it. Not so much the DAC itself. But I do also understand that "names" tend to sell products. ESS and AKM are well recognized and definitely "can" sell products. But once upon a time (in the not too distant past), the best hi-fi gear you could buy contained either a Burr-Brown or a Wolfson DAC... |
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