|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Nov 14, 2024 9:46:59 GMT -5
I have 3 implementations of ESS DACs - oppo 205; Emotiva XDA-3; and Benchmark DAC3 HGC. They all sound different. I listed them in ascending order of sound quality. You are beating a dead horse before it's been born. And to add to your point, I own both an RMC-1L and a Marantz AV8805. Both use the same AKM DAC, but sound entirely different. When playing music, they're "night vs day" different. So, I agree... it does come down to "how" the DAC is implemented and the quality of the stages that follow it. Not so much the DAC itself. But I do also understand that "names" tend to sell products. ESS and AKM are well recognized and definitely "can" sell products. But once upon a time (in the not too distant past), the best hi-fi gear you could buy contained either a Burr-Brown or a Wolfson DAC...  I would be curious to hear why they chose the DAC they did? |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Nov 14, 2024 10:42:18 GMT -5
I have 3 implementations of ESS DACs - oppo 205; Emotiva XDA-3; and Benchmark DAC3 HGC. They all sound different. I listed them in ascending order of sound quality. You are beating a dead horse before it's been born. And to add to your point, I own both an RMC-1L and a Marantz AV8805. Both use the same AKM DAC, but sound entirely different. When playing music, they're "night vs day" different. So, I agree... it does come down to "how" the DAC is implemented and the quality of the stages that follow it. Not so much the DAC itself. But I do also understand that "names" tend to sell products. ESS and AKM are well recognized and definitely "can" sell products. But once upon a time (in the not too distant past), the best hi-fi gear you could buy contained either a Burr-Brown or a Wolfson DAC... Audiophiles have a tendency to be audiophools. We can be a very susceptible group. The industry manipulates like a virtuoso violinist plays a violin. It's not enough for the audiophile to see and read the notes. You have to hear the music and its intent. |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Nov 14, 2024 10:48:00 GMT -5
And to add to your point, I own both an RMC-1L and a Marantz AV8805. Both use the same AKM DAC, but sound entirely different. When playing music, they're "night vs day" different. So, I agree... it does come down to "how" the DAC is implemented and the quality of the stages that follow it. Not so much the DAC itself. But I do also understand that "names" tend to sell products. ESS and AKM are well recognized and definitely "can" sell products. But once upon a time (in the not too distant past), the best hi-fi gear you could buy contained either a Burr-Brown or a Wolfson DAC... I would be curious to hear why they chose the DAC they did? The DACs and op-amps are both TI parts. Good combo business deal for a small company? With no loss of performance? Maybe a special deal on the TI DACs because TI wants to establish their place in the digital audio sun, And because Emotiva has a reputation for good sound? FW is a different issue, but also affects sound. Perhaps Emotiva is getting some special help with FW that supports TI's intent to establish their place in the DAC world. Win-win? Hey KeithL . Would you like to chime in here, or will you just chuckle on the side lines?   |
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Nov 14, 2024 11:45:54 GMT -5
OK... time for another editorial comment... But, again, the bottom line is that, AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT, there are lots of excellent DAC chips... And it's a BAD idea to choose a product based on which chip it uses because so much depends on the specific implementation... It's not all that difficult to make a great DAC chip sound awful by way of bad design... And there are several DAC chips that can sound really great when implemented properly. (And, if we ruled out all DAC chips that were used by manufacturers whose products don't sound as good as ours them we'd have a real problem.  ) There are also a lot of "behind the scenes machination" going on that just plain doesn't matter to the end user. And, to be quite blunt, a LOT of what you hear on various "audiophile web sites" is based on ancient history, and a lot of it is just plain nonsense. I'm going to give you a couple of EXAMPLES here... In "the early days" many products that used Sabre DACs were known for being "bright and detailed sounding". Some people liked the way they sounded, considered it to be "spectacularly detailed", and loved the synergy with some "laid back" speakers... Other folks thought that they sounded "harsh and grainy" and hated the way they sounded. Because this depended on the implementation, not all devices with Sabre DACs sounded this way, but a lot of them did... And, to be fair, many manufacturers specifically used "the bright detailed Sabre sound" as a product differentiator... I had a high-end Wyred4Sound DAC that had a Sabre DAC in it that sounded really noticeably bright... But the Oppo 105 and 205 sounded pretty normal. The point is that, for better or worse, people started assuming that all Sabre DACs sounded that way... which is not the case at all. Our new XDA-3 sounds quite neutral - and it uses one of the latest Sabre DACs ... (And most newer products that use Sabre DACs also sound "pretty normal".) AKM DACs are quite nice, offer some convenient design options, and became quite popular several years ago... Therefore a lot of manufacturers started using them... partly because they worked well.. and partly because "people recognized the name". But, a few years ago now, AKM suffered a major fire at their main production facility for their DACs. And, as a result, supplies started to dwindle, and there was serious concern about how long it would take AKM to get back into production... And, mainly for that reason, many vendors started looking for a different brand of chip to use instead. It was nothing deeper or more sinister that not wanting to design a new product that used a chip that might become unavailable... Bear in mind that the overall design cycle takes a long time and you usually cannot "just drop in a different chip"... (And this did matter more to manufacturers and products with a longer design cycle.) Luckily, as it turns out, AKM was able to get up and running pretty quickly. Since you don't seem to be reading the thread, I'll repeat it. TI acquired Burr Brown many years ago - they are the same thing. The safe choices lately are AKM and ESS, but the landscape is always changing. Ok. Let’s include Burr Brown and TI since they are both made by TI. AKM and ESS, as you note, are safe choices. They are used in lots of high end DACs. I cannot find a TI DAC chip that is used by a high end DAC manufacturer. TI may be great, but they are not popular. So, when we are talking about a sound upgrade, if there is one in the Gen.4 processors, the choice of TI adds to the mystery whereas ESS and AKM chips seem to fit in a certain quality category. As I also said in my post Emotiva has always been a sound first company so they deserve the benefit of the doubt. We will not know what is what until some Gen.4 units can be reviewed. As to the other manufacturers you mentioned, like Denon, Marantz, etc., I think they are all AKM or ESS in their high end units. |
|
|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Nov 14, 2024 11:50:39 GMT -5
OK... time for another editorial comment... But, again, the bottom line is that, AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT, there are lots of excellent DAC chips... And it's a BAD idea to choose a product based on which chip it uses because so much depends on the specific implementation... It's not all that difficult to make a great DAC chip sound awful by way of bad design... And there are several DAC chips that can sound really great when implemented properly. (And, if we ruled out all DAC chips that were used by manufacturers whose products don't sound as good as ours them we'd have a real problem. ) There are also a lot of "behind the scenes machination" going on that just plain doesn't matter to the end user. And, to be quite blunt, a LOT of what you hear on various "audiophile web sites" is based on ancient history, and a lot of it is just plain nonsense. I'm going to give you a couple of EXAMPLES here... In "the early days" many products that used Sabre DACs were known for being "bright and detailed sounding". Some people liked the way they sounded, considered it to be "spectacularly detailed", and loved the synergy with some "laid back" speakers... Other folks thought that they sounded "harsh and grainy" and hated the way they sounded. Because this depended on the implementation, not all devices with Sabre DACs sounded this way, but a lot of them did... And, to be fair, many manufacturers specifically used "the bright detailed Sabre sound" as a product differentiator... I had a high-end Wyred4Sound DAC that had a Sabre DAC in it that sounded really noticeably bright... But the Oppo 105 and 205 sounded pretty normal. The point is that, for better or worse, people started assuming that all Sabre DACs sounded that way... which is not the case at all. Our new XDA-3 sounds quite neutral - and it uses one of the latest Sabre DACs ... (And most newer products that use Sabre DACs also sound "pretty normal".) AKM DACs are quite nice, offer some convenient design options, and became quite popular several years ago... Therefore a lot of manufacturers started using them... partly because they worked well.. and partly because "people recognized the name". But, a few years ago now, AKM suffered a major fire at their main production facility for their DACs. And, as a result, supplies started to dwindle, and there was serious concern about how long it would take AKM to get back into production... And, mainly for that reason, many vendors started looking for a different brand of chip to use instead. It was nothing deeper or more sinister that not wanting to design a new product that used a chip that might become unavailable... Bear in mind that the overall design cycle takes a long time and you usually cannot "just drop in a different chip"... (And this did matter more to manufacturers and products with a longer design cycle.) Luckily, as it turns out, AKM was able to get up and running pretty quickly. Ok. Let’s include Burr Brown and TI since they are both made by TI. AKM and ESS, as you note, are safe choices. They are used in lots of high end DACs. I cannot find a TI DAC chip that is used by a high end DAC manufacturer. TI may be great, but they are not popular. So, when we are talking about a sound upgrade, if there is one in the Gen.4 processors, the choice of TI adds to the mystery whereas ESS and AKM chips seem to fit in a certain quality category. As I also said in my post Emotiva has always been a sound first company so they deserve the benefit of the doubt. We will not know what is what until some Gen.4 units can be reviewed. As to the other manufacturers you mentioned, like Denon, Marantz, etc., I think they are all AKM or ESS in their high end units. Thank you for chiming in Keith |
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,086
|
Post by klinemj on Nov 14, 2024 11:59:36 GMT -5
And it's a BAD idea to choose a product based on which chip it uses because so much depends on the specific implementation... It's not all that difficult to make a great DAC chip sound awful by way of bad design... And there are several DAC chips that can sound really great when implemented properly. In a rare occasion, I fully agree with Keith. I have an Oppo 105 with a Sabre DAC. I have an LH Labs DAC with the exact same chip. I love the sound of the LH Labs DAC. The Oppo, to me, is good for movies but I don't prefer the sound for music. PS...anyone want an Oppo 105? I no longer need it. Mark |
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 14, 2024 12:22:39 GMT -5
… I would be curious to hear why they chose the DAC they did? When the G3P was released, there was lots of speculation that the difficulty in implementing Dirac and other technologies, were because of the complexities of the chipsets that were chosen. I don’t know if this was ever acknowledged, or if it would have been better with a different choice, but I’d think when designing the G4P, that the chip choices were made to build a robust and stable ‘system’. So that (at least some of) the DAC chip’s choice, was made based on suitability or compatibility with the other choices they made, and likely supply issues as well. |
|
|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Nov 14, 2024 12:36:43 GMT -5
… I would be curious to hear why they chose the DAC they did? When the G3P was released, there was lots of speculation that the difficulty in implementing Dirac and other technologies, were because of the complexities of the chipsets that were chosen. I don’t know if this was ever acknowledged, or if it would have been better with a different choice, but I’d think when designing the G4P, that the chip choices were made to build a robust and stable ‘system’. So that (at least some of) the DAC chip’s choice, was made based on suitability or compatibility with the other choices they made, and likely supply issues as well. Hopefully that'll allow DLBC to be available at the time of release as opposed to down the road somewhere. |
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 14, 2024 12:53:10 GMT -5
When the G3P was released, there was lots of speculation that the difficulty in implementing Dirac and other technologies, were because of the complexities of the chipsets that were chosen. I don’t know if this was ever acknowledged, or if it would have been better with a different choice, but I’d think when designing the G4P, that the chip choices were made to build a robust and stable ‘system’. So that (at least some of) the DAC chip’s choice, was made based on suitability or compatibility with the other choices they made, and likely supply issues as well. Hopefully that'll allow DLBC to be available at the time of release as opposed to down the road somewhere. I too hope it’s not a long wait (it’s been five years already). |
|
|
|
Post by thxultra on Nov 14, 2024 13:54:24 GMT -5
OK... time for another editorial comment... But, again, the bottom line is that, AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT, there are lots of excellent DAC chips... And it's a BAD idea to choose a product based on which chip it uses because so much depends on the specific implementation... It's not all that difficult to make a great DAC chip sound awful by way of bad design... And there are several DAC chips that can sound really great when implemented properly. (And, if we ruled out all DAC chips that were used by manufacturers whose products don't sound as good as ours them we'd have a real problem. ) There are also a lot of "behind the scenes machination" going on that just plain doesn't matter to the end user. And, to be quite blunt, a LOT of what you hear on various "audiophile web sites" is based on ancient history, and a lot of it is just plain nonsense. I'm going to give you a couple of EXAMPLES here... In "the early days" many products that used Sabre DACs were known for being "bright and detailed sounding". Some people liked the way they sounded, considered it to be "spectacularly detailed", and loved the synergy with some "laid back" speakers... Other folks thought that they sounded "harsh and grainy" and hated the way they sounded. Because this depended on the implementation, not all devices with Sabre DACs sounded this way, but a lot of them did... And, to be fair, many manufacturers specifically used "the bright detailed Sabre sound" as a product differentiator... I had a high-end Wyred4Sound DAC that had a Sabre DAC in it that sounded really noticeably bright... But the Oppo 105 and 205 sounded pretty normal. The point is that, for better or worse, people started assuming that all Sabre DACs sounded that way... which is not the case at all. Our new XDA-3 sounds quite neutral - and it uses one of the latest Sabre DACs ... (And most newer products that use Sabre DACs also sound "pretty normal".) AKM DACs are quite nice, offer some convenient design options, and became quite popular several years ago... Therefore a lot of manufacturers started using them... partly because they worked well.. and partly because "people recognized the name". But, a few years ago now, AKM suffered a major fire at their main production facility for their DACs. And, as a result, supplies started to dwindle, and there was serious concern about how long it would take AKM to get back into production... And, mainly for that reason, many vendors started looking for a different brand of chip to use instead. It was nothing deeper or more sinister that not wanting to design a new product that used a chip that might become unavailable... Bear in mind that the overall design cycle takes a long time and you usually cannot "just drop in a different chip"... (And this did matter more to manufacturers and products with a longer design cycle.) Luckily, as it turns out, AKM was able to get up and running pretty quickly. Ok. Let’s include Burr Brown and TI since they are both made by TI. AKM and ESS, as you note, are safe choices. They are used in lots of high end DACs. I cannot find a TI DAC chip that is used by a high end DAC manufacturer. TI may be great, but they are not popular. So, when we are talking about a sound upgrade, if there is one in the Gen.4 processors, the choice of TI adds to the mystery whereas ESS and AKM chips seem to fit in a certain quality category. As I also said in my post Emotiva has always been a sound first company so they deserve the benefit of the doubt. We will not know what is what until some Gen.4 units can be reviewed. As to the other manufacturers you mentioned, like Denon, Marantz, etc., I think they are all AKM or ESS in their high end units. Agree with all of this but still agree with the poster above it would be interesting to hear why Emotiva made the choice to go with this TI DAC. More so just because I'm curious. I do remember when Burr Brown (now owned by TI) was the DAC to have. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Nov 14, 2024 15:39:11 GMT -5
The answer is pretty simple... and I'm afraid it's not terribly exciting... We had been using one particular AKM DAC chip which performed very well and sounded very good... But, after their plant fire, AKM discontinued that particular DAC chip, and the availability of newer AKM DAC chips became somewhat uncertain... Also note that, since the newer AKM chips were not drop-in replacements, they would still have required a complete redesign of the board. We had a significant number of the current AKM DAC chips in our warehouse so we continued to use them... But, at the same time, we started looking for a replacement, and redesigning our hardware to go with that replacement... We selected the current TI / BB DAC chip as being the best performing and sounding option available... So we switched our design to use the new chips... It wasn't a matter of "changing brands" but more of "selecting the best chip available at the time". We, as a company, really try not to indulge in choosing components based on brand popularity, and this is no exception. ............................. Agree with all of this but still agree with the poster above it would be interesting to hear why Emotiva made the choice to go with this TI DAC. More so just because I'm curious. I do remember when Burr Brown (now owned by TI) was the DAC to have. |
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Nov 14, 2024 15:40:55 GMT -5
Since you don't seem to be reading the thread, I'll repeat it. TI acquired Burr Brown many years ago - they are the same thing. The safe choices lately are AKM and ESS, but the landscape is always changing. Ok. Let’s include Burr Brown and TI since they are both made by TI. AKM and ESS, as you note, are safe choices. They are used in lots of high end DACs. I cannot find a TI DAC chip that is used by a high end DAC manufacturer. TI may be great, but they are not popular. So, when we are talking about a sound upgrade, if there is one in the Gen.4 processors, the choice of TI adds to the mystery whereas ESS and AKM chips seem to fit in a certain quality category. As I also said in my post Emotiva has always been a sound first company so they deserve the benefit of the doubt. We will not know what is what until some Gen.4 units can be reviewed. As to the other manufacturers you mentioned, like Denon, Marantz, etc., I think they are all AKM or ESS in their high end units. I seem to recall that Schiit uses TI chips in some of its DAC's, like the Yggy. I could be wrong but that's my recollection of reading some of Jason's posts. |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Nov 14, 2024 16:27:43 GMT -5
The answer is pretty simple... and I'm afraid it's not terribly exciting... We had been using one particular AKM DAC chip which performed very well and sounded very good... But, after their plant fire, AKM discontinued that particular DAC chip, and the availability of newer AKM DAC chips became somewhat uncertain... Also note that, since the newer AKM chips were not drop-in replacements, they would still have required a complete redesign of the board. We had a significant number of the current AKM DAC chips in our warehouse so we continued to use them... But, at the same time, we started looking for a replacement, and redesigning our hardware to go with that replacement... We selected the current TI / BB DAC chip as being the best performing and sounding option available... So we switched our design to use the new chips... It wasn't a matter of "changing brands" but more of "selecting the best chip available at the time". We, as a company, really try not to indulge in choosing components based on brand popularity, and this is no exception. Agree with all of this but still agree with the poster above it would be interesting to hear why Emotiva made the choice to go with this TI DAC. More so just because I'm curious. I do remember when Burr Brown (now owned by TI) was the DAC to have. Yep. Your answer is 'not terribly exciting'. It works for me. Now, tell us about the dang feature set. Please. Please update you future-of-processors page like you said you would do: emotiva.com/pages/future-of-processorsI'd like to think a page update would quell some of the hand wringing and over the top speculation - But, who knows... |
|
|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Nov 14, 2024 16:29:47 GMT -5
Hopefully that'll allow DLBC to be available at the time of release as opposed to down the road somewhere. I too hope it’s not a long wait (it’s been five years already). Yeah, all I want out of the next gen processor is DLBC but I can't justify the 2k plus cost. My processor is relatively stable and the rest of the rumored feature set doesn't sway me. |
|
|
|
Post by zdoggz on Nov 14, 2024 17:51:00 GMT -5
Based on Emotiva’s response to a comment on their latest YouTube podcast, DLBC is slated to be available on the g4p, but not at launch.
|
|
|
|
Post by fbczar on Nov 14, 2024 22:15:24 GMT -5
Ok. Let’s include Burr Brown and TI since they are both made by TI. AKM and ESS, as you note, are safe choices. They are used in lots of high end DACs. I cannot find a TI DAC chip that is used by a high end DAC manufacturer. TI may be great, but they are not popular. So, when we are talking about a sound upgrade, if there is one in the Gen.4 processors, the choice of TI adds to the mystery whereas ESS and AKM chips seem to fit in a certain quality category. As I also said in my post Emotiva has always been a sound first company so they deserve the benefit of the doubt. We will not know what is what until some Gen.4 units can be reviewed. As to the other manufacturers you mentioned, like Denon, Marantz, etc., I think they are all AKM or ESS in their high end units. I seem to recall that Schiit uses TI chips in some of its DAC's, like the Yggy. I could be wrong but that's my recollection of reading some of Jason's posts. Thanks! You are correct. One of the Yggdrasil models uses four ultra-precision TI DAC11001B 20-bit D/A converters. I appreciate the info. If the Gen.4 processors sound something like a Yggdrasil it would be great. |
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 14, 2024 23:09:43 GMT -5
… PS...anyone want an Oppo 105? I no longer need it. … It’s probably still worth about what you paid for it. Edit: Sorry, forgot that one was $1200 new, still valuable. |
|
|
|
Post by tngiloy on Nov 15, 2024 14:09:46 GMT -5
New podcast just released.
They talked alittle about 'the processor' -they don't mention exactly which processor but I hope/assume they are talking about the + series- is in testing now and more beta testers will be added around Thanksgiving.
Also said that the product pages will be released in December and hopefully the processors will go on sale in January IIUC.
I will re-listen to get more details, and suggest you all check it out.
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,086
|
Post by klinemj on Nov 15, 2024 15:06:03 GMT -5
It’s probably still worth about what you paid for it. Edit: Sorry, forgot that one was $1200 new, still valuable. It's now on the Emporium for $550 + shipping! Mark |
|
|
|
Post by audiosyndrome on Nov 15, 2024 15:11:31 GMT -5
The 205s still fetch $2,000 to $2,500.
Russ
|
|
)
