XPA HC-1 review on ASR

[NicS]

...oh boy....

[Boomzilla]

“It’s an OK amp…”. Damned with faint praise, to be sure. But Amir asks fair questions - in particular, why can’t Emotiva offer better amps for the money?

At the price of two of these amps, you could buy a “pro amp” for less money that would offer not only more power but better specs.

I’ve said repeatedly that Emotiva’s third generation of power amps don’t sound as good as their earlier models. Now ASR’s measurements verify that opinion. I’ve also said that the decline in amplifier sound quality coincided with Emotiva’s entry into the home theater market. The drain on Emotiva’s engineering department by HT has left the remainder of Emotiva’s products to receive only pro forma updates intended to reduce production costs without sufficient attention to sound quality.

Emotiva CAN sell products that sound great - garbulky’s XPA1s (generation 2) and my PA-1s both sound excellent, but none of the current products that I’ve heard come close.

I’m certainly not the only critic of Emotiva amplifiers’ current sound, so don’t write my opinion off as an outlier. And even if you are skeptical of subjective opinions such as mine, ASR’s measurements verify my comments.

Will the focus on HT kill Emotiva’s other products? I think it already has. Will the focus on HT kill the whole company? Time will tell. But for MY future amplification needs, I’ll be shopping other brands before I consider Emotiva again.

Sic transit gloria mundi.

[cawgijoe]

Jun 5, 2023 23:30:36 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

“It’s an OK amp…”. Damned with faint praise, to be sure. But Amir asks fair questions - in particular, why can’t Emotiva offer better amps for the money?

At the price of two of these amps, you could buy a “pro amp” for less money that would offer not only more power but better specs.

I’ve said repeatedly that Emotiva’s third generation of power amps don’t sound as good as their earlier models. Now ASR’s measurements verify that opinion. I’ve also said that the decline in amplifier sound quality coincided with Emotiva’s entry into the home theater market. The drain on Emotiva’s engineering department by HT has left the remainder of Emotiva’s products to receive only pro forma updates intended to reduce production costs without sufficient attention to sound quality.

Emotiva CAN sell products that sound great - garbulky’s XPA1s (generation 2) and my PA-1s both sound excellent, but none of the current products that I’ve heard come close.

I’m certainly not the only critic of Emotiva amplifiers’ current sound, so don’t write my opinion off as an outlier. And even if you are skeptical of subjective opinions such as mine, ASR’s measurements verify my comments.

Will the focus on HT kill Emotiva’s other products? I think it already has. Will the focus on HT kill the whole company? Time will tell. But for MY future amplification needs, I’ll be shopping other brands before I consider Emotiva again.

Sic transit gloria mundi.

Interesting...I find the XPA-5 Gen 3 to be equal to if not better sounding than my XPA-5 Gen 1 that I traded in after it developed a problem. Decided to take a chance on the new amp design and love it.
My subjective opinion of course and no regrets.

Edit: I went to ASR and did a search on "Emotiva". Amir does not recommend a majority of Emotiva products he reviews. But then again, if you look at the full spectrum of reviews, he doesn't recommend alot of what he reviews.

[Lsc]

I think their goal from XPA gen2 to gen3 was not to keep pushing the envelope in sound quality. I’d guess their goals were, lower weight for less expensive shipping and modular design for lower overall cost per unit.

But if it weren’t for the reliability issues, we saw what they were able to offer with the XPR line. My XPR-2 and XPR-5 were both great and I only sold them because of the reliability concerns and no more support. Sound quality wise I really enjoyed them. I also had the XPA-2 gen2 at the same time I felt was lower quality. Therefore, I never considered the gen3 with the switching power supply and went with ATI amps.

If Emotiva’s next generation amps sound as good as the ATI signature amps (6000 or 4000 series) with the lower prices, then they will have a winner imho and restore themselves as the best amp deals in the internet. True high end quality for much lower prices…and I’d probably swap my ATI amps out.

[geebo]

"Fortunately it is very powerful so likely sounds OK."

So he doesn't know how it actually sounds?

[ttocs]

Jun 6, 2023 10:07:44 GMT -5 geebo said:

So he doesn't know how it actually sounds?

He doesn't, but I do. He's stated that he doesn't listen to many of the products he tests.

I bought a pair a couple years ago to drive my main speakers. After comparing for almost the entire 30 days, because it was a mix of - one amp does this better and the other two do that better, I decided they were not an improvement over the multi-channel Krell I was using at the time. The mono amps presented a better stage, but the Krell had more sparkle, which is understandable when considering how difficult a load the electrostatics present at high frequency.

The point of this is to say that it was a difficult choice with no clear and distinct winner, so I kept what I had.

Two years later I bought one for my center speaker. I had been using the multi-channel Krell for the LCR, and then got a new Krell for just the two main speakers leaving the center speaker connected, but I decided I wanted the HC-1 for the center channel duties. It's been great for that!

[geebo]

Jun 6, 2023 10:41:39 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Jun 6, 2023 10:07:44 GMT -5 geebo said:

So he doesn't know how it actually sounds?

He doesn't, but I do. He's stated that he doesn't listen to many of the products he tests.

I bought a pair a couple years ago to drive my main speakers. After comparing for almost the entire 30 days, because it was a mix of - one amp does this better and the other two do that better, I decided they were not an improvement over the multi-channel Krell I was using at the time. The mono amps presented a better stage, but the Krell had more sparkle, which is understandable when considering how difficult a load the electrostatics present at high frequency.

The point of this is to say that it was a difficult choice with no clear and distinct winner, so I kept what I had.

Two years later I bought one for my center speaker. I had been using the multi-channel Krell for the LCR, and then got a new Krell for just the two main speakers leaving the center speaker connected, but I decided I wanted the HC-1 for the center channel duties. It's been great for that!

And that, to me, speaks more of how something will sound in my system than any of Amir's tests.

[KeithL]

Amir over at ASR firmly believes that a few measurements tell the entire story.
(So he never considers it worthwhile to actually listen to anything he reviews.)

Amir also has a tendency to compare extremely dissimilar products... like surround sound processors and simple stereo desktop DACs... on equal terms.
(I sort of suspect that, if he were to compare a $700 bicycle to a $100k sports car, he would complain that the bicycle was quieter and got better mileage, but the sports car still cost a lot more.) 

Jun 6, 2023 10:07:44 GMT -5 geebo said:

"Fortunately it is very powerful so likely sounds OK."

So he doesn't know how it actually sounds?

[KeithL]

We absolutely do have multiple goals... and they absolutely do include both sound quality and price.
(And I'm not totally sure what envelope we need to be pushing at this point in the game.)

Our new switch mode power supply has several significant advantages.
For one thing it eliminates the hum problems that you have with linear power supplies.
And, for another, it is fully regulated, which is an important feature that is just not practical to add to linear power supplies.
(Adding full regulation to a linear power supply increases the weight, complexity, and cost, while at the same time it considerably reduces efficiency.)
And, yes, it is also lighter, which makes the amps easier to handle, and cheaper to ship, and reduces the chances of shipping damage along the way.
And, incidentally, now that we've been using it for a few years and can see the numbers, it has also proven to be more reliable.
And, yes, it also sounds at least as good as our old linear supply.
(To be honest, while being fully regulated is technically a step up, I'm not sure you can actually hear that improvement)

But our XPA Gen3 amps still use a Class A/B output stage... because, in this application, we still prefer the way it sounds.
(But we kept the Class H power supply topology from our XPR amps to improve the efficiency a little bit.)
(And, yes, we are planning some Class D units in the future.)

And, just for the record, we also realize that everyone does have a personal preference when it comes to how amplifiers sound...
But we actually do think that the new Gen3 amps sound a tiny bit better than the previous generations...

And, yes, we do also consider it sort of important that our customers can still afford to buy them.

Jun 6, 2023 7:44:08 GMT -5 Lsc said:

I think their goal from XPA gen2 to gen3 was not to keep pushing the envelope in sound quality. I’d guess their goals were, lower weight for less expensive shipping and modular design for lower overall cost per unit.

But if it weren’t for the reliability issues, we saw what they were able to offer with the XPR line. My XPR-2 and XPR-5 were both great and I only sold them because of the reliability concerns and no more support. Sound quality wise I really enjoyed them. I also had the XPA-2 gen2 at the same time I felt was lower quality. Therefore, I never considered the gen3 with the switching power supply and went with ATI amps.

If Emotiva’s next generation amps sound as good as the ATI signature amps (6000 or 4000 series) with the lower prices, then they will have a winner imho and restore themselves as the best amp deals in the internet. True high end quality for much lower prices…and I’d probably swap my ATI amps out.

[KimbaWLion]

Look I am NO expert. Either something sounds goood to me or doesn't. I have owned a LOT of amps over the last 40 years, both integrated and pure amplifer.

I own an XPA 11 Gen 3 because I like one stop shopping (for now) and I was using the Pre out of my old Sony ES receiver for my Preamp before I got my RMC-1.

When I switched to the XPA Gen 3 from the Sony ES receiver the difference was astonishing tbh. I am not a hard core reviewer looking to nit-pick everything, I

just wanted my money's worth and I got it. I want to go 1-3 monoblocks but that is in the future, I can only say, for now I am happy.

I  will look at Schiit, Emotiva, AND Frank Van Alstine when the time comes. A lot of people on ASR like Buckeye Class D amps, but from all I read Class A is still the gold standard to many. I will worry about it later,
for now I will live and be happy with my XPA Gen 3 11...
For a different take on the Amp watch this review...

Andrew Robinson did one...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NgzIQj-xds

[garbulky]

I’m think the future will be very different for
Emotiva. They will move to class d. Focus on physical functional features and good aesthetics. The emersa looked like exactly what we need.

[KimbaWLion]

It's funny, I had the pleasure of meeting Carl and Marilyn Marchisotto of Accent Speaker Technology, AKA Nola Speakers. I was in the market for new speakers and I have been saving up for YEARS.
I have had my ADS M12 speakers for 30 years and it was time for a change. I found an older pair of Nola Speakers on ebay and reached out to Nola for a bit of background etc. I was told for the age, 12 years ago
they were fine but they had greatly improved designs etc. Anyway, long story short, I got to meet them, listen to the speakers I was interested in and talk about amplification etc. He does have a masters in electrical engineering and has been designing speakers
since the mid to late 70's so he knows a bit. His belief, FWIW, is that class D can post some decent numbers. But for how it makes his speakers sound, Class A to AB is, in his opinion is the only way to for now. His subwoofer design even used a Class AB amplifer vs. the
typical Class D most powered subs.

I don't always know what to think, but when the times  for monoblocks I will see what's out there and make a choice. I want to believe more choices makes a better amp at the end of the day. As show in the Andrew Robinson review, there are most definitly 2 schools of thought,
numbers vs. actual sound listening...

[mgbpuff]

I have linear power supplies in amps all over my house and I am not aware of any 'hum' problems. Hum comes with poor design, including filtering, and lack of physical or mechanical isolation. My Emo amps for the most part are older ones with linear power supplies, and they are great. I do have a new XPR 11 for a bedroom HT system, which I really like (it fits the job perfectly for an inexpensive 7.1.4 Atmos set up with relatively cheap Jamo speakers). I will not buy SMPS amps for my best systems. My XPA-1 Gen1 mono amps driving my Maggie 3.6R's are keepers (love the complete system of differential fully balanced components - XSP-1. ERC-3, and 2 XPA-1s). When will Emotiva go back to really high-quality affordable stereo components like these? I did not like the change to Gen 2 that expanded Class A to 30 watts (too dang hot), nor the Gen 3 change that brought the SMPS and all that extra noise that Amir is complaining about. I'm not big on Chinese air, which is mostly in the enclosures!

[mgbpuff]

Well, all I can say is that measurements are scientific; all this other mouth wobbling is not. The problem is that we do not measure enough, and we do not measure enough parameters. Maybe the parameters are infinite, and we can never measure enough and so we ultimately must always depend on our listening. That will probably never go away. We do not want to clip during playback, in fact we do not want to be anywhere close to clipping even during a dynamic burst. Therefore, the power supply in the case of an audio amplifier needs to be ample and rigorous in current supply and does not need to be voltage regulated as might be required for signal circuitry, especially digital, which is either at power supply limit or zero, with nothing in between, and with limited and consistent current draw. You still have to like how it looks and sounds, but its engineering competence will be verified by measurements. Engineering excellence is getting the same or better performance at an affordable price. It is not an engineering accomplishment to design without a price limit in sight and then claim superiority, even though hardly anyone will be able to afford it. There is too much of this type of engineering going on today and it is killing the audiophile market, which can't be tied to only millionaires (only 10% of the population, and only 10% of those are audiophiles).

[bolle]

Jun 6, 2023 11:12:02 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Amir over at ASR firmly believes that a few measurements tell the entire story.
(So he never considers it worthwhile to actually listen to anything he reviews.)

Amir also has a tendency to compare extremely dissimilar products... like surround sound processors and simple stereo desktop DACs... on equal terms.
(I sort of suspect that, if he were to compare a $700 bicycle to a $100k sports car, he would complain that the bicycle was quieter and got better mileage, but the sports car still cost a lot more.) 

That´s a little bit low Keith, isn´t it?

Amir is measuring, that´s correct. Nothing wrong with that. Measurements are objective, listening is not. Of course the interpretation of measurements is not objective. Amir is here sticking to acclaimed standards, which imho is a good approach.

Amir is using the same measuring process with the same things he does measure for different products. I personally think this is fine and don´t see a problem here. You compare the speed of objects on the same scale (mph) so it makes sense to use the same scale and measures for e.g. noise for different products, right?

A bicyle is quiter than most cars, that´s an objective fact that you can measure.
Most cars are faster (top speed, acceleration) than a bicycle with a standardized cyclist under standardized measuring conditions, that´s also objective and measurable.
Same for the price, weight, etc. etc.

Now how you interpret that measurements - that´s up to you, your use case, requirements, etc..

Personally I would like more sportmanship from Emotiva towards ASR. Other companies did respond better imho and even used the ASR measurements as a starter to improve their products - how cool is that? ;-)

[Boomzilla]

Jun 6, 2023 11:34:10 GMT -5 KeithL said:

We absolutely do have multiple goals... and they absolutely do include both sound quality and price....

And therein lies the crux of the issue. Some of those multiple goals are contradictory, and therefore, Emotiva has prioritized some at the expense of others. Goals that Emotiva has given top priority to include:

* Modular construction to reduce production cost
* Lighter weight to reduce shipping cost
* Increasing reliability to reduce service cost
* Standardization across models to reduce design cost

All these are worthy goals for the sustainability of the company, but note that every single one of these goals is about cost reduction.

Emotiva claims to prioritize sound quality, but criticism from those of us who actually listen to the products AND from those who measure the products (ASR, for example) all find that sound quality has suffered compared to previous generations of Emotiva products and compared to competitive brands of audio equipment. You can dismiss either the listeners or the measurers if you wish, but when the two BOTH say that these Emotiva products aren't what they should be, the conclusion is worth paying attention to.

Finis.

[cawgijoe]

Jun 14, 2023 13:42:10 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Jun 6, 2023 11:34:10 GMT -5 KeithL said:

We absolutely do have multiple goals... and they absolutely do include both sound quality and price....

And therein lies the crux of the issue. Some of those multiple goals are contradictory, and therefore, Emotiva has prioritized some at the expense of others. Goals that Emotiva has given top priority to include:

* Modular construction to reduce production cost
* Lighter weight to reduce shipping cost
* Increasing reliability to reduce service cost
* Standardization across models to reduce design cost

All these are worthy goals for the sustainability of the company, but note that every single one of these goals is about cost reduction.

Emotiva claims to prioritize sound quality, but criticism from those of us who actually listen to the products AND from those who measure the products (ASR, for example) all find that sound quality has suffered compared to previous generations of Emotiva products and compared to competitive brands of audio equipment. You can dismiss either the listeners or the measurers if you wish, but when the two BOTH say that these Emotiva products aren't what they should be, the conclusion is worth paying attention to.

Finis.

I'll let Keith answer most of this, but as a buyer and listener to Emotiva products, when I compare my XPA-5 Gen 1 to the XPA-5 Gen 3, I have to say that they both sound good and nearly identical. I don't perceive a loss of sound quality or product quality with the new amp.

That doesn't mean their other products haven't been cheapened, so can't answer for those.

Excelsior

[tropicallutefisk]

Jun 14, 2023 14:22:40 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

Jun 14, 2023 13:42:10 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

And therein lies the crux of the issue. Some of those multiple goals are contradictory, and therefore, Emotiva has prioritized some at the expense of others. Goals that Emotiva has given top priority to include:

* Modular construction to reduce production cost
* Lighter weight to reduce shipping cost
* Increasing reliability to reduce service cost
* Standardization across models to reduce design cost

All these are worthy goals for the sustainability of the company, but note that every single one of these goals is about cost reduction.

Emotiva claims to prioritize sound quality, but criticism from those of us who actually listen to the products AND from those who measure the products (ASR, for example) all find that sound quality has suffered compared to previous generations of Emotiva products and compared to competitive brands of audio equipment. You can dismiss either the listeners or the measurers if you wish, but when the two BOTH say that these Emotiva products aren't what they should be, the conclusion is worth paying attention to.

Finis.

I'll let Keith answer most of this, but as a buyer and listener to Emotiva products, when I compare my XPA-5 Gen 1 to the XPA-5 Gen 3, I have to say that they both sound good and nearly identical. I don't perceive a loss of sound quality or product quality with the new amp.

That doesn't mean their other products haven't been cheapened, so can't answer for those.

Excelsior

I have the DR series monos for my LCR channels and I am very pleased with them. They are the only monoblocks I've had, so I can't make any meaningful comparisons against other monoblock options.  Previous stereo and 5 channel amps by McIntosh and Rotel respectively didn't sound this good. Both of those were used with the speakers currently in use, but my observations are obviously not apples to apples. However, per dollar spent, I am extremely pleased with my amps. Is there something better for the money? Maybe. However, I certainly don't feel cheated and I love the quality of sound I hear. Not trying to be a fanboy. Just sharing my albeit limited experience.  

[KeithL]

I'm sorry but I feel obligated to offer a somewhat snarky reply here:
Would you prefer that we RAISE our prices?

Obviously everyone has slightly different tastes... and even modern amplifiers do often sound slightly different...
And, while we obviously can't please everyone all of the time, most of our customers seem to actually like the way our new amplifiers sound as well.
(And, yes, just for the record, most of us here really do think that the current generation of amps do sound at least a tiny bit better than the last one.)
And, to be brutally honest, we're pretty sure that people who either don't like the way they sound, or don't like the price, won't be buying them.
(And, of course, if they buy one, and don't like it, they may actually even return it... although you may be surprised at how rarely that actually happens.) 

I should also point out that, if you go to one of the shows, and listen to a few of those wondrous uber-expensive amplifiers...
You will find that, while many of them do have a distinctive sound of one sort of another, in general they really don't sound magically wondrously better...
So, for better or worse, when it comes to amplifiers, there really is no magical frontier of better sound, waiting to be conquered by some incredible new technology...
So, yes, we'll settle for offering amplifiers that, at least to most people, sound just as good, or maybe a little better, for a little bit less (or sometimes a lot less).
(And, yes, we do consider things like improving reliability and reducing costs to be important too.)

Jun 14, 2023 13:42:10 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Jun 6, 2023 11:34:10 GMT -5 KeithL said:

We absolutely do have multiple goals... and they absolutely do include both sound quality and price....

And therein lies the crux of the issue. Some of those multiple goals are contradictory, and therefore, Emotiva has prioritized some at the expense of others. Goals that Emotiva has given top priority to include:

* Modular construction to reduce production cost
* Lighter weight to reduce shipping cost
* Increasing reliability to reduce service cost
* Standardization across models to reduce design cost

All these are worthy goals for the sustainability of the company, but note that every single one of these goals is about cost reduction.

Emotiva claims to prioritize sound quality, but criticism from those of us who actually listen to the products AND from those who measure the products (ASR, for example) all find that sound quality has suffered compared to previous generations of Emotiva products and compared to competitive brands of audio equipment. You can dismiss either the listeners or the measurers if you wish, but when the two BOTH say that these Emotiva products aren't what they should be, the conclusion is worth paying attention to.

Finis.

[geebo]

Jun 14, 2023 13:42:10 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Jun 6, 2023 11:34:10 GMT -5 KeithL said:

We absolutely do have multiple goals... and they absolutely do include both sound quality and price....

And therein lies the crux of the issue. Some of those multiple goals are contradictory, and therefore, Emotiva has prioritized some at the expense of others. Goals that Emotiva has given top priority to include:

* Modular construction to reduce production cost
* Lighter weight to reduce shipping cost
* Increasing reliability to reduce service cost
* Standardization across models to reduce design cost

All these are worthy goals for the sustainability of the company, but note that every single one of these goals is about cost reduction.

Emotiva claims to prioritize sound quality, but criticism from those of us who actually listen to the products AND from those who measure the products (ASR, for example) all find that sound quality has suffered compared to previous generations of Emotiva products and compared to competitive brands of audio equipment. You can dismiss either the listeners or the measurers if you wish, but when the two BOTH say that these Emotiva products aren't what they should be, the conclusion is worth paying attention to.

Finis.

Is that to say that all those here that say their amp sounds as good or better than the old generations don't actually listen to the products?