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Post by Zombie on Jun 16, 2023 13:59:48 GMT -5
I'm a die hard Zildjian guy. I've tried many other cymbals but I just keep coming back to Zildjian. My Platinum 20" Rock Ride and 20" China Boy High are two of my favorites. I'm very curious to see (and hear) the new "paper thin" K's coming out in the near future. I haven't broke a cymbal in probably 30 years so I'll most likely get a couple to try. I typically like a brighter cymbal with a fast decay so these are probably right up my alley.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 16, 2023 14:43:31 GMT -5
I'll admit that I just skimmed his "review"... But... The graphs I saw showed a THD of below 0.025% at 5 watts.... which is well below what anybody I know would call the limit of audibility. And he then confirmed that we met our full power THD rating as well. (And, considering that the HC-1 actually sounds good too, we can safely assume that there are no unexpected surprises lurking there.) Likewise, a S/N of 88 dB (ref 5 watts), and just under 110 dB (ref full power), is quite respectable too. So I'm not actually seeing anything there that "needs to be addressed". Something else funny occurred to me. And it involves the story about how the existence of TIM (transient intermodulation distortion) and SID (slewing induced distortion) were discovered... In the early days of solid state amplifiers and preamps, it was not unreasonably assumed that, if one had low THD and a high S/N, their product would sound quite good. (After all "everybody knew that those were the important specs".) However it soon turned out that some preamps and amps, even though they had very good specifications, still actually managed to sound rather bad. (One rather well known example was the Dynaco Pat-4 preamp... which everybody agreed didn't sound nearly as good as their preceding vacuum tube model.) The culprit turned out to be TIM and SID (which are related) - and which don't show up on a standard static THD measurement. Luckily, once the cause was figured out, it turned out to be relatively simple to avoid with proper design practices. (But that story serves as an excellent example of "how measurements aren't enough to tell the whole story".) I would also like to add something to what you said about cymbals... Cymbals are actually quite loud and can deliver some very powerful high frequency transients... Therefore, many microphones have trouble recording them, and cymbals in recordings are virtually always heavily limited and processed... So, when you want to audition a DAC, you'd better bring recordings that you've made yourself, or whose provenance you are very familiar with...  ................................... Amir's review speaks to the question of relative significance. Maybe I missed it, but has Emotiva responded that the below-par measurement are not typical, and the amp may have a problem? If that's the case then that's the issue to be resolved. But if not ... the review places the amp in a class of other amps ... maybe they all sound "okay" but the ones at the top of the heap sound better? Toole's circle of confusion and the photography CoC are completely different concepts, though your point about the quality of the blur is relevant. It's like saying certain types of distortion are more audible or more unpleasant than others. Toole is just saying there is a "circular" nature to using equipment to mix music and equipment to listen to music that introduces significant error into the process of making comparisons. As an aside ... CoC in photography has traditionally been based on a "standard" that had to do with the sharpness of a certain physical portion of a piece of 35mm film as it related to a person's ability to perceive sharpness on an 8-10 print held at arm's length. Depth of Field and Hyperfocal Distance calculations are based on this unbelievably vague measure, and yet photographers have used these calculations for decades. So now we have digital cameras with resolution many times greater than that of film, and we need to make the CoC a physically much smaller number in order to get accurate DoF and Hyperfocal results (26 microns for an 8Mp sensor - roughly equivalent to film - vs 10.4 microns for a 50Mp sensor). But now that I think of it, this relates kind of directly to your analogy of whether you could hear a S/N difference with a high resolution digital recording vs a vinyl record. Also regarding audible distortion, because a digital recording is more capable of driving an amp into distortion than a vinyl record - in theory - because the potential dynamic range of digital could be 30db higher. And, I once tried to do the Philips Golden Ear Challenge and I got stuck at the end of Silver and could not advance to the Gold test because I could not tell the difference between the various MP3 bitrates. What made this so difficult was that the music chosen for this test was a very low quality recording of narrow bandwidth, narrow dynamic range, stupid music. I could not find any attribute to focus on that would reveal a difference. Many others agreed, BTW, and said the only way they got past it was to keep guessing. I could go on and on about cymbals  Avedis Zyldian cymbals are machine made and generally sound brighter, while old Kerope Zydian cymbals hand-hammered in Turkey have a darker sound, but after they started making the "K" cymbals in the US there was less difference. That said, it's to be expected that Zyldian cymbals of a type and size (e.g. 20" Medium Ride) will still all sound different. Paiste cymbals tend to have a much more consistent sound for each model of a size and type. There are now many more manufacturers of cymbals and many, many more models. Bosphorus is a newer brand and I really like the way they sound ... and they have models much thinner than cymbals made in the past, as well as some heavier and darker sounding models. And this is crazy ... you can listen to sound files of various actual specific cymbals of different types and weights here and decide what to buy! (BTW, I could not buy a cymbal this way ... I have to hit it myself with a stick, for a couple minutes, in different places and with different amounts of force) www.cymbalsonly.com/cymbals/Bos/bos.htmNow consider ... wood tip or nylpn tip stick; pointed or round tip; heavy or light stick; steel wire brush or brass ... etc. THEN let's listen to two DACs  |
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Post by marcl on Jun 16, 2023 15:04:06 GMT -5
I'll admit that I just skimmed his "review"... But... The graphs I saw showed a THD of below 0.025% at 5 watts.... which is well below what anybody I know would call the limit of audibility. And he then confirmed that we met our full power THD rating as well. (And, considering that the HC-1 actually sounds good too, we can safely assume that there are no unexpected surprises lurking there.) Likewise, a S/N of 88 dB (ref 5 watts), and just under 110 dB (ref full power), is quite respectable too. So I'm not actually seeing anything there that "needs to be addressed". Something else funny occurred to me. And it involves the story about how the existence of TIM (transient intermodulation distortion) and SID (slewing induced distortion) were discovered... In the early days of solid state amplifiers and preamps, it was not unreasonably assumed that, if one had low THD and a high S/N, their product would sound quite good. (After all "everybody knew that those were the important specs".) However it soon turned out that some preamps and amps, even though they had very good specifications, still actually managed to sound rather bad. (One rather well known example was the Dynaco Pat-4 preamp... which everybody agreed didn't sound nearly as good as their preceding vacuum tube model.) The culprit turned out to be TIM and SID (which are related) - and which don't show up on a standard static THD measurement. Luckily, once the cause was figured out, it turned out to be relatively simple to avoid with proper design practices. (But that story serves as an excellent example of "how measurements aren't enough to tell the whole story".) I would also like to add something to what you said about cymbals... Cymbals are actually quite loud and can deliver some very powerful high frequency transients... Therefore, many microphones have trouble recording them, and cymbals in recordings are virtually always heavily limited and processed... So, when you want to audition a DAC, you'd better bring recordings that you've made yourself, or whose provenance you are very familiar with... Amir's review speaks to the question of relative significance. Maybe I missed it, but has Emotiva responded that the below-par measurement are not typical, and the amp may have a problem? If that's the case then that's the issue to be resolved. But if not ... the review places the amp in a class of other amps ... maybe they all sound "okay" but the ones at the top of the heap sound better? Toole's circle of confusion and the photography CoC are completely different concepts, though your point about the quality of the blur is relevant. It's like saying certain types of distortion are more audible or more unpleasant than others. Toole is just saying there is a "circular" nature to using equipment to mix music and equipment to listen to music that introduces significant error into the process of making comparisons. As an aside ... CoC in photography has traditionally been based on a "standard" that had to do with the sharpness of a certain physical portion of a piece of 35mm film as it related to a person's ability to perceive sharpness on an 8-10 print held at arm's length. Depth of Field and Hyperfocal Distance calculations are based on this unbelievably vague measure, and yet photographers have used these calculations for decades. So now we have digital cameras with resolution many times greater than that of film, and we need to make the CoC a physically much smaller number in order to get accurate DoF and Hyperfocal results (26 microns for an 8Mp sensor - roughly equivalent to film - vs 10.4 microns for a 50Mp sensor). But now that I think of it, this relates kind of directly to your analogy of whether you could hear a S/N difference with a high resolution digital recording vs a vinyl record. Also regarding audible distortion, because a digital recording is more capable of driving an amp into distortion than a vinyl record - in theory - because the potential dynamic range of digital could be 30db higher. And, I once tried to do the Philips Golden Ear Challenge and I got stuck at the end of Silver and could not advance to the Gold test because I could not tell the difference between the various MP3 bitrates. What made this so difficult was that the music chosen for this test was a very low quality recording of narrow bandwidth, narrow dynamic range, stupid music. I could not find any attribute to focus on that would reveal a difference. Many others agreed, BTW, and said the only way they got past it was to keep guessing. I could go on and on about cymbals Avedis Zyldian cymbals are machine made and generally sound brighter, while old Kerope Zydian cymbals hand-hammered in Turkey have a darker sound, but after they started making the "K" cymbals in the US there was less difference. That said, it's to be expected that Zyldian cymbals of a type and size (e.g. 20" Medium Ride) will still all sound different. Paiste cymbals tend to have a much more consistent sound for each model of a size and type. There are now many more manufacturers of cymbals and many, many more models. Bosphorus is a newer brand and I really like the way they sound ... and they have models much thinner than cymbals made in the past, as well as some heavier and darker sounding models. And this is crazy ... you can listen to sound files of various actual specific cymbals of different types and weights here and decide what to buy! (BTW, I could not buy a cymbal this way ... I have to hit it myself with a stick, for a couple minutes, in different places and with different amounts of force) www.cymbalsonly.com/cymbals/Bos/bos.htmNow consider ... wood tip or nylpn tip stick; pointed or round tip; heavy or light stick; steel wire brush or brass ... etc. THEN let's listen to two DACs Two funny things ... I built a PAT-4 in the 70's and sold it a couple years ago for more than I paid for it back then. I do have recordings I made myself of me playing my drums and cymbals, made on a Nakamichi 700II with DBX noise reduction ... two Nakamichi MC-300 mics with cardioid capsules, Blumlein . Last year I transferred the cassette recordings to digital, if you'd like me to send them to you |
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Post by marcl on Jun 16, 2023 15:12:35 GMT -5
I'm a die hard Zildjian guy. I've tried many other cymbals but I just keep coming back to Zildjian. My Platinum 20" Rock Ride and 20" China Boy High are two of my favorites. I'm very curious to see (and hear) the new "paper thin" K's coming out in the near future. I haven't broke a cymbal in probably 30 years so I'll most likely get a couple to try. I typically like a brighter cymbal with a fast decay so these are probably right up my alley. Yes I ended up with almost all Zyldians .. only ever two Paiste out of the couple dozen cymbals I've owned over the years. I have a 20" Istanbul K and 14" hihats still. I also have two Wuhan Chinas that I spent an afternoon picking out at Ray Mann's Easter Musical Instruments in London in the early 80's. I bought a US K 20" ride in NY around '84 and spent an afternoon at one of the NY shops playing every one they had. So you know what I'm saying ... the variation from cymbal to cymbal, combined with technique ... as well as Keithl 's legitimate point about compression and EQ. |
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Post by Zombie on Jun 16, 2023 15:40:43 GMT -5
I'm a die hard Zildjian guy. I've tried many other cymbals but I just keep coming back to Zildjian. My Platinum 20" Rock Ride and 20" China Boy High are two of my favorites. I'm very curious to see (and hear) the new "paper thin" K's coming out in the near future. I haven't broke a cymbal in probably 30 years so I'll most likely get a couple to try. I typically like a brighter cymbal with a fast decay so these are probably right up my alley. Yes I ended up with almost all Zyldians .. only ever two Paiste out of the couple dozen cymbals I've owned over the years. I have a 20" Istanbul K and 14" hihats still. I also have two Wuhan Chinas that I spent an afternoon picking out at Ray Mann's Easter Musical Instruments in London in the early 80's. I bought a US K 20" ride in NY around '84 and spent an afternoon at one of the NY shops playing every one they had. So you know what I'm saying ... the variation from cymbal to cymbal, combined with technique ... as well as Keithl 's legitimate point about compression and EQ. Oh yeah, every cymbal sounds different even though they're supposed to be the same. But, I'm Ok with that and would expect nothing less since each one is hand-made. I've bought a few cymbals online without hearing them first. Some I liked, some I didn't. I just got done clearing out about 10 cymbals I was no longer using (for various reasons). A local drum shop usually buys my stuff without question and gives me a fair market value. |
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Post by localnet on Jun 16, 2023 16:36:44 GMT -5
I just stumbled across this thread... And am very familiar with Amir, the reviewer that does not listen to the gear he evaluates, or trashes, take your pick. I just took delivery of the XPA-DR2, and have it sitting next to my XPA-2 which is still in the rack. The last two amps I had in the system were the Denafrips Thallo and the XTZ Edge A2-400 Class D amp... I kept going back to the XPA-2. I have since added the Denafrips Athena preamp and their Venus II 12th DAC... I think that is pretty decent gear, and the KLH Model 5's... The 5's are what they are, big with HUGE SOUND. Didn't Amir trash the DR2 not long ago, something about the power supply switching on his scan tool? I hear none of that, this is the best sounding amp I have owned in like forever. It arrived yesterday, minutes before a several hour severe thunderstorm... I cracked the box this morning at 0300, prior to going to work. It was a bit rough around the edges at first, then about an hour in, she started to open up. Sitting here right now listening to it right now. She is really opening up, the soundstage vs the more expensive Thallo is huge in comparison. And that was a very good amp according many more attuned to this game then myself. I am seriously impressed with this DR2, it really opened things up, separation is fantastic, and very holographic with a huge soundstage. And I have to say, the combination of the Venus II 12th DAC and the Athena preamp, really play well together. The old XPA-2, is the DR night and day? I would say yes. I was hard pressed to ditch the old girl, she has served me well since 2008, but I think it is time for her to go into retirement. The DR2 is so much better, in all respects. And not that the XPA-2 is any slouch, but combined with my DAC and preamp, it is no contest. As far as Amir, screw him. He should have listened to the DR2 with some decent gear and cables. Zip cord will only get you so far. ;-)  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 16, 2023 17:22:53 GMT -5
OK - We may (or may not) agree with Amir, but trashing him with zip cord comments is unworthy (and yes, I did notice the smiley face at the end). I agree that measurements aren't everything (in fact, I'd claim that they're less than 50% of the tale of how a component sounds), but they're at least worth looking at. Amir's reviews have almost sunk some companies whose components did poorly. Nobody I know of questions the accuracy of Amir's measurements (although many argue the significance of them). Amir is what ASR is, and just accept that at face value. If measurements are trivial to you, fine. But don't trash the source because the facts didn't come out the way you wanted.
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 16, 2023 17:37:04 GMT -5
I As far as Amir, screw him. He should have listened to the DR2 with some decent gear and cables. Zip cord will only get you so far. ;-) View Attachment[/quote Smiley face or not, screw him totally inappropriate. Also obvious by your comments you’ve never been to the ASR site. Go there and learn something. And listen to your mother, if you have nothing good to say say nothing! Russ |
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Post by localnet on Jun 16, 2023 17:47:22 GMT -5
I As far as Amir, screw him. He should have listened to the DR2 with some decent gear and cables. Zip cord will only get you so far. ;-) View Attachment[/quote Smiley face or not, screw him totally inappropriate. Also obvious by your comments you’ve never been to the ASR site. Go there and learn something. And listen to your mother, if you have nothing good to say say nothing! Russ I am a member of the site! I was not going to even purchase this amp due to Amir's review. But, I saw so many disparaging remarks out there from other members that have never heard the DR2, but yet trashed it, so many so, that I had to bite! All of that bad press from kool aid drinkers like yourself, prompted me to purchase. I have learned a few things over the years, where there is smoke there is fire, and in this case, I had 30 days to put it out. And talking about my mother like that? She is 80 yo and in the sewing room with her great grand daughter, should I go get her? Or would you like to meet me in an ally? F off. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 16, 2023 17:52:47 GMT -5
Wow. Inappropriate again. Two demerits.
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Post by localnet on Jun 16, 2023 18:05:47 GMT -5
OK - We may (or may not) agree with Amir, but trashing him with zip cord comments is unworthy (and yes, I did notice the smiley face at the end). I agree that measurements aren't everything (in fact, I'd claim that they're less than 50% of the tale of how a component sounds), but they're at least worth looking at. Amir's reviews have almost sunk some companies whose components did poorly. Nobody I know of questions the accuracy of Amir's measurements (although many argue the significance of them). Amir is what ASR is, and just accept that at face value. If measurements are trivial to you, fine. But don't trash the source because the facts didn't come out the way you wanted. Thank you. I was poking fun, and being sarcastic. I am a member at ASR, and as I go up the ladder in audio gear I have gone there more than a few times to ask questions and educate myself. What pissed me off about Amir and his followers, is their totally one way approach to everything audio. And I am not talking "Audiophile", just audio. I added a set of coaxial speaker cables to my system, and these Mogami wires totally opened up the sound. I posted my findings, my ears, no scopes, and was called everything but a white man for even suggesting that a coaxial wire vs essentially zip cord would sound better or different. It got ugly. So much so, I have never been back, and take their nonsense for what it is worth, spit. And do not get me started on chip DACs vs R2R... The better my gear gets, and when I make changes, I can hear it in most cases, be it negative or positive. I have no test equipment here, just my ears. And my ACE in the hole is that 80yo mother of mine that I came back from ND to take care of. I am divorced, truck driver, oil field worker. Been doing this crap for 30+ years. Back to mom, she still has great hearing, and every change I make she can hear it, and has no issue stating what she hears. This DR2 amplifier, we were rocking out, she was amazed at the holographic sound, how everything enveloped the room, she stated it was an obvious and exciting improvement. Even her great granddaughter was dancing. I don't know what to tell you. I am a member of ASR, and I find them to be kool aid drinkers in most cases. You cannot veer off the plantation over there, if you question, you are attacked. I do not have time for that crap. And that is my point, how many folks take their crap as gospel? I did for quite awhile, sticking with my old XPA-2 and not upgrading to the DR2 due to Amir. The man is a pariah. |
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Post by localnet on Jun 16, 2023 18:09:34 GMT -5
Wow. Inappropriate again. Two demerits. I will survive... ;-) |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 16, 2023 18:41:04 GMT -5
Hi localnet - You're burnt out on ASR. That's OK - everyone's entitled to an opinion (and you seem to have reasons for yours). I, personally, don't consider Amir a "pariah," any more than I consider Andrew Robinson one (or KeithL). I may not always agree with their opinions (or conclusions), but I think they all present valid viewpoints. I do, however, agree with you completely about how "audio groupthink" leads to abuse of anyone who disagrees with the orthodoxy of the particular website. That's unfortunate, but it's human nature. Oh well... |
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Post by localnet on Jun 16, 2023 19:31:10 GMT -5
Hi localnet - You're burnt out on ASR. That's OK - everyone's entitled to an opinion (and you seem to have reasons for yours). I, personally, don't consider Amir a "pariah," any more than I consider Andrew Robinson one (or KeithL). I may not always agree with their opinions (or conclusions), but I think they all present valid viewpoints. I do, however, agree with you completely about how "audio groupthink" leads to abuse of anyone who disagrees with the orthodoxy of the particular website. That's unfortunate, but it's human nature. Oh well... We are on the same page, and I am learning many things as my gear improves. Cables matter, DACs matter, streamers matter... I have been in the Amir camp for quite awhile, I totally understand, but then I started the deep dive into gear I would have never of thought of purchasing. Now, I am finding everything has a sound signature, no matter how it measures. Now, would I go out and spend $10,000 for an HDMI cable, hell no! But, I will spend $400 on two sets of XLR cables, or $700 for power cords, or rewire my little AV corner with six dedicated 20 amp circuits with 12/2 romex. I did that, because I started ignoring Amir and the crew. The SW-8 network switch, it made a huge improvement, and then I found the Netgear GS108Ev3 network switches on Amazon for $40, that matched the $600 LHY SW-8 switch. Talk about kicking ones self! I have those Netgear switches piggybacked, and they do work. These network switches, I am telling you, they do matter. I installed that SW-8 and mom walked in the dining room and asked me, and she was serious, if I bought a new TV. Now tell me, how am I supposed to pull off a stunt like that? Sneak in a new TV in the time it takes to install a new network switch? It took me all of a few minutes to do that. The PQ improved that much. I was blown away, a network switch? Seriously? Yes. Mom is the sounding board, I tell her nothing, she is a woman, it is what it is. I just let her observe, and by God, she nails everything I throw at my system. She had no clue I bought this amplifier, it has been sitting in the living room all day, she never noticed, but by God she heard the difference in sound! I said nothing. I will take mom over Amir any day of the week. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 17, 2023 3:39:57 GMT -5
After thinking about KeithL's comment about how specs won't tell you which equipment you'll like the sound of, I'd like to flip the question: If you bought a system using ASR's specifications as a guide and without listening to the gear prior to purchase - would you end up with a BAD sounding system? I'd think not. Just saying... |
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Post by tropicallutefisk on Jun 17, 2023 8:50:15 GMT -5
My takeaway of this discussion… I think it highlights why I love this hobby. It’s neither 100% science or 100% art. Therefore you can never distill sound down to an equation or a single opinion. It would like coming up with a formula for making the best oil painting. Sure, there are quality materials or certain techniques that aid in creating a great oil painting, but ultimately it’ll be judged subjectively. This art/science balance will insure continued innovation and spirited discussions.
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Post by marcl on Jun 17, 2023 9:06:13 GMT -5
My takeaway of this discussion… I think it highlights why I love this hobby. It’s neither 100% science or 100% art. Therefore you can never distill sound down to an equation or a single opinion. It would like coming up with a formula for making the best oil painting. Sure, there are quality materials or certain techniques that aid in creating a great oil painting, but ultimately it’ll be judged subjectively. This art/science balance will insure continued innovation and spirited discussions. Good point! But maybe it's like Quantum physics/Relativity/Newtonian physics .... we just haven't figured out the math to solve the "Theory of Everything". Maybe the answer is in those one-dimensional strings vibrating in 10-dimensional hyperspace. |
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Post by tropicallutefisk on Jun 17, 2023 9:12:00 GMT -5
My takeaway of this discussion… I think it highlights why I love this hobby. It’s neither 100% science or 100% art. Therefore you can never distill sound down to an equation or a single opinion. It would like coming up with a formula for making the best oil painting. Sure, there are quality materials or certain techniques that aid in creating a great oil painting, but ultimately it’ll be judged subjectively. This art/science balance will insure continued innovation and spirited discussions. Good point!  But maybe it's like Quantum physics/Relativity/Newtonian physics .... we just haven't figured out the math to solve the "Theory of Everything". Maybe the answer is in those one-dimensional strings vibrating in 10-dimensional hyperspace. Now that’s getting deep for a Saturday morning lol |
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Post by geebo on Jun 17, 2023 9:22:39 GMT -5
After thinking about KeithL's comment about how specs won't tell you which equipment you'll like the sound of, I'd like to flip the question: If you bought a system using ASR's specifications as a guide and without listening to the gear prior to purchase - would you end up with a BAD sounding system? I'd think not. Just saying... Bad? Probably not. Could you have done better buying something recommended by reviewers that listen to the gear? Probably. |
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Post by geebo on Jun 17, 2023 9:24:01 GMT -5
My takeaway of this discussion… I think it highlights why I love this hobby. It’s neither 100% science or 100% art. Therefore you can never distill sound down to an equation or a single opinion. It would like coming up with a formula for making the best oil painting. Sure, there are quality materials or certain techniques that aid in creating a great oil painting, but ultimately it’ll be judged subjectively. This art/science balance will insure continued innovation and spirited discussions. Good point! But maybe it's like Quantum physics/Relativity/Newtonian physics .... we just haven't figured out the math to solve the "Theory of Everything". Maybe the answer is in those one-dimensional strings vibrating in 10-dimensional hyperspace. I think the answer is 42. |
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Avedis Zyldian cymbals are machine made and generally sound brighter, while old Kerope Zydian cymbals hand-hammered in Turkey have a darker sound, but after they started making the "K" cymbals in the US there was less difference. That said, it's to be expected that Zyldian cymbals of a type and size (e.g. 20" Medium Ride) will still all sound different. Paiste cymbals tend to have a much more consistent sound for each model of a size and type. There are now many more manufacturers of cymbals and many, many more models. Bosphorus is a newer brand and I really like the way they sound ... and they have models much thinner than cymbals made in the past, as well as some heavier and darker sounding models. And this is crazy ... you can listen to sound files of various actual specific cymbals of different types and weights here and decide what to buy! (BTW, I could not buy a cymbal this way ... I have to hit it myself with a stick, for a couple minutes, in different places and with different amounts of force)
