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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 17, 2023 10:16:52 GMT -5
It's funny, I had the pleasure of meeting Carl and Marilyn Marchisotto of Accent Speaker Technology, AKA Nola Speakers. I was in the market for new speakers and I have been saving up for YEARS. I have had my ADS M12 speakers for 30 years and it was time for a change. I found an older pair of Nola Speakers on ebay and reached out to Nola for a bit of background etc. I was told for the age, 12 years ago they were fine but they had greatly improved designs etc. Anyway, long story short, I got to meet them, listen to the speakers I was interested in and talk about amplification etc. He does have a masters in electrical engineering and has been designing speakers since the mid to late 70's so he knows a bit. His belief, FWIW, is that class D can post some decent numbers. But for how it makes his speakers sound, Class A to AB is, in his opinion is the only way to for now. His subwoofer design even used a Class AB amplifer vs. the typical Class D most powered subs. I don't always know what to think, but when the times for monoblocks I will see what's out there and make a choice. I want to believe more choices makes a better amp at the end of the day. As show in the Andrew Robinson review, there are most definitly 2 schools of thought, numbers vs. actual sound listening... Carl and I started our Freshman year in college at Brooklyn Polytechnic in 1960. Carl transferred to CCNY the next year and continued on there to get his MSEE. I continued at Poly to get my MSEE. Point of this? Carl and I are both alte kakkers; you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. Class D is definitely the way of the future, either by choice or if the greenies get their way. Russ |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 17, 2023 12:03:54 GMT -5
I'm running Emotiva PA-1 mono amps built on (obsolete), Class-D B&O ICE technology. Amir at ASR wouldn't like them based on their specs or performance. But once warmed up, these just make my speakers sing. And curiously, some speakers more than others... I had my Klipsch RP-600m bookshelf speakers, and they LOVED the PA-1 amps. I'm currently using my GoldenEar Triton 3 speakers, and although they sound good (sometimes very good) with the PA-1s, the synergy that existed with the Klipsch speakers just isn't there.
So the next choice to be made is whether I should replace the GoldenEars with a pair of Klipsch speakers (plus the mandatory subwoofer), or whether I should shop for an amp that lights up the GoldenEars. I think that I may choose the latter path because I have an audio amigo who has at least 50 power amps in his home of various makes and vintages and he's offered to loan me as many as I'd like to try. His inventory includes "pro" amps such as Crown, QSC, Behringer, and others. His inventory also includes "high end" amps such as Krell, Mark Levinson, Odyssey Audio, McIntosh, Rotel, Luxman, NAD, Counterpoint, PS Audio, Classé, Parasound, Dynaco, Carver, Threshold, Pass Labs, and others. Needless to say, audio amigo is single and his house is CRAMMED to the rafters with audio gear. But I can certainly audition as many as I want in my own home & with my own speakers.
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Post by marcl on Jun 17, 2023 12:14:31 GMT -5
I'm running Emotiva PA-1 mono amps built on (obsolete), Class-D B&O ICE technology. Amir at ASR wouldn't like them based on their specs or performance. But once warmed up, these just make my speakers sing. And curiously, some speakers more than others... I had my Klipsch RP-600m bookshelf speakers, and they LOVED the PA-1 amps. I'm currently using my GoldenEar Triton 3 speakers, and although they sound good (sometimes very good) with the PA-1s, the synergy that existed with the Klipsch speakers just isn't there. So the next choice to be made is whether I should replace the GoldenEars with a pair of Klipsch speakers (plus the mandatory subwoofer), or whether I should shop for an amp that lights up the GoldenEars. I think that I may choose the latter path because I have an audio amigo who has at least 50 power amps in his home of various makes and vintages and he's offered to loan me as many as I'd like to try. His inventory includes "pro" amps such as Crown, QSC, Behringer, and others. His inventory also includes "high end" amps such as Krell, Mark Levinson, Odyssey Audio, McIntosh, Rotel, Luxman, NAD, Counterpoint, PS Audio, Classé, Parasound, Dynaco, Carver, Threshold, Pass Labs, and others. Needless to say, audio amigo is single and his house is CRAMMED to the rafters with audio gear. But I can certainly audition as many as I want in my own home & with my own speakers. Ironically enough ... "Conclusions - It is hard to get perfection at this price point but the Emotiva PA-1 tries hard. It is a small package that runs cool yet produces well above average noise and distortion ratings. It is a shame it is discontinued. I am going to put the Emotiva PA-1 on my recommended list. Hopefully you can find some in second hand market or something." www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/emotiva-pa-1-review-amplifier.23464/ p.s. I have one for sale if anyone is interested  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 17, 2023 17:16:19 GMT -5
ASR says "It is hard to get perfection at this price point but the Emotiva PA-1 tries hard. It is a small package that runs cool yet produces well above average noise and distortion ratings. It is a shame it is discontinued. I am going to put the Emotiva PA-1 on my recommended list. Hopefully you can find some in second hand market or something." www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/emotiva-pa-1-review-amplifier.23464/p.s. I have one for sale if anyone is interested Note that when ASR says "above average noise & distortion ratings" they mean that this amp is BETTER than average on noise and distortion - not worse. If you can find another to match it, I recommend that you scoop up marcl's amp! |
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Post by jjkessler on Jun 17, 2023 17:45:41 GMT -5
I tell you. Long time Emotiva fan and now running RMC-1L and the XPA-DR3 and XPA Gen 3 amps in my 7.2.6 home theater and for the money, couldn’t be happier….kick ass theater. Yes there are a few annoying issues on my RMC-1L…but, not earth shattering. I could care less about ASR as what I have in my little home theater is great for me and working with Emotiva when I have run into an issue has been a good experience
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Post by marcl on Jun 17, 2023 17:47:46 GMT -5
ASR says "It is hard to get perfection at this price point but the Emotiva PA-1 tries hard. It is a small package that runs cool yet produces well above average noise and distortion ratings. It is a shame it is discontinued. I am going to put the Emotiva PA-1 on my recommended list. Hopefully you can find some in second hand market or something." www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/emotiva-pa-1-review-amplifier.23464/p.s. I have one for sale if anyone is interested Note that when ASR says "above average noise & distortion ratings" they mean that this amp is BETTER than average on noise and distortion - not worse. If you can find another to match it, I recommend that you scoop up marcl 's amp! Yeah the PA-1 was real good as a center channel amp. When I got my CCR center I upgraded to a Purifi and okay I do believe it sounds better but for 4X the price and nearly 3X the power. Yes, I'd like to sell the PA-1 to a good home. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Jun 18, 2023 11:19:23 GMT -5
I posted this about ASR and Amir in a 2021 thread about his review of a DR2. "Amir is too focused on just SINAD in his judgement about amps. There are many more aspects to be measured, if the total competency of an amp is to be accessed via measurements. There are measurements concerning continuous power, dynamic power, resistive to reactive load performance, bandwith (related to transient performance), cross talk, and on and on. To be sure, if an amp sounds better, there is a measurable reason that it does. But since almost no reviews, even if heavily measure tested, includes every type of test possible, there is good logic behind the ear test because in the end the sound is what it is all about."
This still applies, and what I posted on page one of this thread is consistent with my earlier take. I have always admired audio equipment companies that provide high quality performance at an affordable price point. Dynaco, Audio Alchemy, Perpetual Technology, Audio Electronics, Music Hall, Music Fidelity, and lately Emotiva, Topping, IFI, Woo, and S.M.S.L. all have done so in their times. Schiit should be on this list, but I refuse to buy from a company that mocks the public's gullibility by insulting them with their name and even joke and boast about it. So Emotiva is definitely on my list of affordable quality, but I think they got slowed a bit in the tar pit of HT and that market's much deeper, complex, and expensive technology. You can't get the best of everything at the lowest priced electronics; you can't get the best of everything even in the highest priced electronics. So pay attention and use your intelligence and financial limitations in making these types of decisions. What's optimum for someone else may not be optimum for you.
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Post by markc on Jun 19, 2023 1:29:39 GMT -5
I’ve said repeatedly that Emotiva’s third generation of power amps don’t sound as good as their earlier models. Now ASR’s measurements verify that opinion. We should remain cautious. For someone who has a major history in posting somewhat interesting positive comments in this forums about "exotic" hi-fi equipment and accessories, and definitely projecting a "golden-ears" aura, this statement is an oxymoron. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Jun 19, 2023 8:58:03 GMT -5
I’ve said repeatedly that Emotiva’s third generation of power amps don’t sound as good as their earlier models. Now ASR’s measurements verify that opinion. We should remain cautious. For someone who has a major history in posting somewhat interesting positive comments in this forums about "exotic" hi-fi equipment and accessories, and definitely projecting a "golden-ears" aura, this statement is an oxymoron. I, for one, have never experienced such history from Boomzilla. I think his views are logical and balanced. |
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Post by brutiarti on Jun 19, 2023 9:48:04 GMT -5
I’ve said repeatedly that Emotiva’s third generation of power amps don’t sound as good as their earlier models. Now ASR’s measurements verify that opinion. We should remain cautious. For someone who has a major history in posting somewhat interesting positive comments in this forums about "exotic" hi-fi equipment and accessories, and definitely projecting a "golden-ears" aura, this statement is an oxymoron. I think Boom is running a pair of PA-1's with some Klipsch bookshelfs very far from "exotic"  |
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Post by geebo on Jun 19, 2023 10:11:09 GMT -5
I’ve said repeatedly that Emotiva’s third generation of power amps don’t sound as good as their earlier models. Now ASR’s measurements verify that opinion. We should remain cautious. For someone who has a major history in posting somewhat interesting positive comments in this forums about "exotic" hi-fi equipment and accessories, and definitely projecting a "golden-ears" aura, this statement is an oxymoron. How can we be sure which sounds better if Amir has never tested the earlier XPA amps? If we're going to base the sound quality of an amp on his measurements then we must have measurements of both amps to make a valid comparison. So in that regard Amir has verified nothing. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Jun 21, 2023 16:16:32 GMT -5
So what you're saying is that you absolutely trust gear that has really good specs to not sound bad... I'm not sure that I can agree with you there... I've heard a few DACs that have really excellent specs... that I still didn't especially like the sound of... I wouldn't exactly say that they sounded awful... But they certainly ended up near the bottom of my list... However I am more inclined to agree that most amps that have good specs sound pretty good... But you really don't want to think too hard about specifications when it comes to vinyl... or magnetic tape... or tube gear... After thinking about KeithL 's comment about how specs won't tell you which equipment you'll like the sound of, I'd like to flip the question: If you bought a system using ASR's specifications as a guide and without listening to the gear prior to purchase - would you end up with a BAD sounding system? I'd think not. Just saying... |
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Post by leonski on Aug 7, 2023 1:32:49 GMT -5
One poster here is hung up...so some degree on 'specs' and rated 'power'....neither of which is any guarantee as to how it actually performs.
A few amps which are gangbusters into a resistor fail badly with a real speaker load.....Reactive.....
I'd say based o Booms 'buy a system using ASR's Specs' and would you end up with a bad system? Maybe yes. Maybe no. It's crapshoot time
and 'are you feeling lucky, punk'.....?
And the fact that Keith says you 'really don't want to think too hard about spec when it comes to vinyl....or tape....or tubes'......tells you that there is
FAR more in play than measurements.....
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Post by leonski on Aug 25, 2023 23:22:48 GMT -5
Well, all I can say is that measurements are scientific; all this other mouth wobbling is not. The problem is that we do not measure enough, and we do not measure enough parameters. Maybe the parameters are infinite, and we can never measure enough and so we ultimately must always depend on our listening. That will probably never go away. We do not want to clip during playback, in fact we do not want to be anywhere close to clipping even during a dynamic burst. Therefore, the power supply in the case of an audio amplifier needs to be ample and rigorous in current supply and does not need to be voltage regulated as might be required for signal circuitry, especially digital, which is either at power supply limit or zero, with nothing in between, and with limited and consistent current draw. You still have to like how it looks and sounds, but its engineering competence will be verified by measurements. Engineering excellence is getting the same or better performance at an affordable price. It is not an engineering accomplishment to design without a price limit in sight and then claim superiority, even though hardly anyone will be able to afford it. There is too much of this type of engineering going on today and it is killing the audiophile market, which can't be tied to only millionaires (only 10% of the population, and only 10% of those are audiophiles). A not so old saying can be applied here.... Everything that matters can't be measured Everthing that is measured, doesn't necessarily matter...... I'd add that somewhere in the future? You may get some series of measures which can be boiled down to a 'quality' number, which Might correlate with 'how it sounds'. The last word has not been written here. Keep in mind to day that not even every measure that can be made.....and one in particular I can think of which DOES matter, is neither made always or hardly ever presented IF made. This measure? Running the amp into a difficult simulated load, NOT a resistor. Audiograph made such a system which stressed an amp with inductive and capacitive loads at 30 and 60 degrees, as well as pure resistive. When graphed......it told quite a story about amps which otherwise measured the same into a resistor....SCROLL DOWN TO THE GRAPH......Some well regarded amplifiers simply did Poorly by this measure....... www.audiograph.seAnd some of what you say is purely system dependent. I have a 35$ parts express amp which drives a very benign speaker well and lives in my garage. A good set of KLIPSCH from the Heritage series may be happy with 35 watts each of TUBE. But while my Maggies may be OK with tubes, I doubt they'd be happy with 35 watts....... As a history note? Higher power Solid State and small, insensitive 'box' speakers (think AR3a, for example) came along at about the same time.....and appear made for each other..... |
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Post by ashrum on Oct 24, 2023 14:56:47 GMT -5
I think when it comes to audio the end, result is always comes down to the enjoyment of the source material. there is something in the end result that can’t only be positively represented in just numbers. Sure the measurements are not meaningless and is still important, they weren’t meant to be taken in a vacuum without considering all the factors, and the end result, which is how it sounds to those that listen to the source material being played. To do so, would be to judge paintings by Rembrandt, Pollock and Picasso merely on the quality of the materials, are used and the efficiency of their technique when painting, without ever looking at their paintings. Needless to say, just looking at the numbers, won’t show you the entire picture. I am not saying this to insult anyone’s opinion, but if it was truly about the numbers and that’s all it took to make the best amplifier or processor, there would be probably so many diverse offerings to choose from. There would probably just be one standard design that produced the right numbers and there would be obviously nothing for us to discuss.
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 24, 2023 15:46:32 GMT -5
Hmmm…. Listen to the music? Maybe. But what is important in electronics may not be what’s important in speakers. Lots of folks LOVE the sound of tubed electronics despite the fact that they have lots more distortion than solid-state stuff. And in fact, some of the lowest-distortion amps ever produced were the 1970’s Technics by Panasonic models. Of course, they sounded wretched because of all the negative feedback required to reduce distortion by that much, but their THD numbers were unparalleled.
In speakers, the (mostly) undisputed kings of low distortion are the Klipsch La Scalas and Klipschorns. One may (or may not) like their horn-affected frequency response, but they remain some of the lowest-distortion speakers ever. If I had the room for them, I’d own some again.
So one man’s ambrosia is another’s dog soup. In electronics as well as in speakers, you pays your money and you takes your choice.
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Post by leonski on Oct 24, 2023 15:56:11 GMT -5
Hmmm…. Listen to the music? Maybe. But what is important in electronics may not be what’s important in speakers. Lots of folks LOVE the sound of tubed electronics despite the fact that they have lots more distortion than solid-state stuff. And in fact, some of the lowest-distortion amps ever produced were the 1970’s Technics by Panasonic models. Of course, they sounded wretched because of all the negative feedback required to reduce distortion by that much, but their THD numbers were unparalleled. In speakers, the (mostly) undisputed kings of low distortion are the Klipsch La Scalas and Klipschorns. One may (or may not) like their horn-affected frequency response, but they remain some of the lowest-distortion speakers ever. If I had the room for them, I’d own some again. So one man’s ambrosia is another’s dog soup. In electronics as well as in speakers, you pays your money and you takes your choice. Just heard the FORTE IV yesterday for the first time. No audible sign of 'horn honk' even when playing Blues Harp (Paul Butterfield) at higher levels. Bass was good, reasonably extended (need a 'movie test') while the rest was falling well into place..... Female vocals were exquisite. Heard things in 'familiar' material which was All New...... |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 24, 2023 17:03:40 GMT -5
Just heard the FORTE IV yesterday for the first time. No audible sign of 'horn honk' even when playing Blues Harp (Paul Butterfield) at higher levels. Bass was good, reasonably extended (need a 'movie test') while the rest was falling well into place..... Female vocals were exquisite. Heard things in 'familiar' material which was All New...... Yes - the new horn designs from JBL and Klipsch HAVE eliminated the "horn honk." That said, NO direct-radiating bass driver can match the low distortion of a horn-loaded bass driver. The horn couples the driver to the room air such that only a fraction of the cone movement is needed for the horn to produce the same SPL that a direct radiator would have to move 10x or more to produce. With the lower cone movement comes lower distortion. Period. Yes - the Forte and Cornwall are good speakers - but in the bass, they produce 10x or more the distortion of the La Scala or Klipschorn. How Important is low bass distortion? You'll have to decide that for yourself. Some peoples' ears are more sensitive to bass distortion than others'. A typical subwoofer can produce up to 20% or more distortion - yet most don't care. I've found over the years that I prefer the low-distortion bass sounds of the La Scala and Klipschorn models. YMMV |
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Post by leonski on Oct 24, 2023 17:52:06 GMT -5
WISH in some ways I could AFFORD the higher end stuff from Klipsch.
They are making a NEW Jubilee model with 2x@12" woofers / 3x4" ports per speaker....With active crossover / DSP / EQ.......
Call it about 36$ Grand a pair.......And a claimed response so low, you'll never even THINK sub....
I don't think I could get 'em in my DOOR let alone setup in a way to do them justice in my house.
If they really ARE 105 db sensitive, my 35$ chip amp from Parts Express would do until I could afford a DECWARE amp.....
Or build the Pass Amp Camp Camp.....probably still <400$?
I don't worry about the bass distortion THAT much. I dont' crank it which helps some, I suspect....And yes, the human ear
is least sensitive to such problems at THAT end of the spectrum...
The affordable end (if 5 large a pair is 'affordable') of the spectrum is quite nice.....but lacks horn loaded Woofer.....
the La Scala is over 13 large per pair, but CAN be had in exquisite Dark Walnut.....
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Post by ashrum on Oct 24, 2023 18:37:57 GMT -5
I agree it very much subjective, as with Anything that involves aesthetic appeal visual or auditory. A person will have preferences and will like what they like sometimes regardless or in direct opposition of numerical data. I would also have agree on bass distortion as the very low spectrum, can be felt it also is unaidable in the 20hz area which probably why the class D amps are not as high end as those meant to drive full rage speakers. Though not as if they don't matter at all as even if you cant hear it you can definitely feel when distortion even when it can be heard at the low end. you can feel the difference between tight impactful bass and one that is loose and sloppy. Unfocused loose bass does tend to walls and rattle windows more.
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