ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Mar 25, 2024 7:25:38 GMT -5
2-1/2 years ago the price for a 18KW Generac installed was $7,940.19 including the 16 circuit 100A Generator panel. Gas, Natural gas, or Diesel? Today I'll bet Same Install goes over 10k....and rising...... Here in SoCal? I'll bet between permitting (a PIA) and dealing with install, probably More..... Might even need some kind of 'permission' from the electric company......another bunch of parasites. All of the generators installed for the houses I used to build are natural gas. Most of the generators we had installed were for 400A of backup power so that most of the house would be on the generator. (I used to build unnecessarily large homes. (My entire house would fit in the family rooms of most of them.)) Permitting should be pretty straight forward, but with smaller lots could be an issue due to proximity to neighbor lots. Screening is required in our area, which amounts to a 4' high solid fence around the generator. Semi-annual maintenance is a must for long term reliability. Costs keep rising of course, but that 18Kw already had the pandemic surcharges added to it so it would only be marginally more costly today. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Mar 25, 2024 7:55:45 GMT -5
Gas, Natural gas, or Diesel? Today I'll bet Same Install goes over 10k....and rising...... Here in SoCal? I'll bet between permitting (a PIA) and dealing with install, probably More..... Might even need some kind of 'permission' from the electric company......another bunch of parasites. All of the generators installed for the houses I used to build are natural gas. Most of the generators we had installed were for 400A of backup power so that most of the house would be on the generator. (I used to build unnecessarily large homes. (My entire house would fit in the family rooms of most of them.)) Permitting should be pretty straight forward, but with smaller lots could be an issue due to proximity to neighbor lots. Screening is required in our area, which amounts to a 4' high solid fence around the generator. Semi-annual maintenance is a must for long term reliability. Costs keep rising of course, but that 18Kw already had the pandemic surcharges added to it so it would only be marginally more costly today. Going to be building a brand new semi-custom home starting this summer or earlier for retirement. The area does not have natural gas, however I see Generac generators using propane. I've never owned a "whole-home" generator. Thinking about adding this while the house is being built instead of later on. Wondering if there is any cost savings because of this. Any suggestions, pointers, heads-up,etc are appreciated. |
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ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Mar 25, 2024 9:02:11 GMT -5
All of the generators installed for the houses I used to build are natural gas. Most of the generators we had installed were for 400A of backup power so that most of the house would be on the generator. (I used to build unnecessarily large homes. (My entire house would fit in the family rooms of most of them.)) Permitting should be pretty straight forward, but with smaller lots could be an issue due to proximity to neighbor lots. Screening is required in our area, which amounts to a 4' high solid fence around the generator. Semi-annual maintenance is a must for long term reliability. Costs keep rising of course, but that 18Kw already had the pandemic surcharges added to it so it would only be marginally more costly today. Going to be building a brand new semi-custom home starting this summer or earlier for retirement. The area does not have natural gas, however I see Generac generators using propane. I've never owned a "whole-home" generator. Thinking about adding this while the house is being built instead of later on. Wondering if there is any cost savings because of this. Any suggestions, pointers, heads-up,etc are appreciated. I live and work in Illinois, but one of our clients has a 31 acre property in Michigan, and the house uses electric heat pumps for heating. During the Winter to save money on electricity costs he uses a generator when the temps go below the threshold he determined would get him the most savings (he's an engineer and does know what he's doing). So we installed a 500 gallon IP Gas tank underground that will last the Winter if he chooses to use it. He looks at whatever the current costs are for electric and IP Gas. Installing a generator during construction is the better way to go logistically. While excavation is going on all the underground stuff can be done concurrently, big savings. Plus, there's no "mobilization cost" since everyone is already onsite so electricians and generator techs can work together, slight savings here. And then there's the danger of hitting something buried after the fact if it's done at a later time. Lastly, you get to determine the best spot for the generator and the best path for anything getting buried. |
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Post by leonski on Mar 25, 2024 14:36:36 GMT -5
I could 'time share' one of the Honda 2200 watt models with fridge (open only upon need) and lighting / entertainment.
My garage door has a battery option, too.......
A few years back, SoCal had a major outage which at our house lasted 12 hours. I'd include a HIGH END battery portable all-band radio in any plans.
I also have my Ham License and a small handheld.
What is the capacity of your small Generac? One of the sort-a portable types used by contractors at a remote building site would be a good choice.
I don't see ME needing more than maybe 4 to 5 Kw, but than other complications may arise.......
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Post by leonski on Mar 25, 2024 14:47:23 GMT -5
All of the generators installed for the houses I used to build are natural gas. Most of the generators we had installed were for 400A of backup power so that most of the house would be on the generator. (I used to build unnecessarily large homes. (My entire house would fit in the family rooms of most of them.)) Permitting should be pretty straight forward, but with smaller lots could be an issue due to proximity to neighbor lots. Screening is required in our area, which amounts to a 4' high solid fence around the generator. Semi-annual maintenance is a must for long term reliability. Costs keep rising of course, but that 18Kw already had the pandemic surcharges added to it so it would only be marginally more costly today. Going to be building a brand new semi-custom home starting this summer or earlier for retirement. The area does not have natural gas, however I see Generac generators using propane. I've never owned a "whole-home" generator. Thinking about adding this while the house is being built instead of later on. Wondering if there is any cost savings because of this. Any suggestions, pointers, heads-up,etc are appreciated. While a clean sheet? MAYBE 'double wire' with a 2nd set of outlets (fewer) connected only to the generator circuit. But ME? I'd skip the generator DEPENDING on where to be built. a good PV system with a pair of PowerWall or equal would be quiet, renewable, add value and not require the hassle of regular genset maintenance. Not to mention lower monthly costs.....again depending on where built....... |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Mar 26, 2024 7:43:47 GMT -5
Going to be building a brand new semi-custom home starting this summer or earlier for retirement. The area does not have natural gas, however I see Generac generators using propane. I've never owned a "whole-home" generator. Thinking about adding this while the house is being built instead of later on. Wondering if there is any cost savings because of this. Any suggestions, pointers, heads-up,etc are appreciated. While a clean sheet? MAYBE 'double wire' with a 2nd set of outlets (fewer) connected only to the generator circuit. But ME? I'd skip the generator DEPENDING on where to be built. a good PV system with a pair of PowerWall or equal would be quiet, renewable, add value and not require the hassle of regular genset maintenance. Not to mention lower monthly costs.....again depending on where built....... Location is central Virginia. Lots of trees. Builder will preserve hardwoods rather then clear the entire lot. Of course I don't want huge trees too near the house. Retiring, so likely will never recover cost of installation. Lots of things to think about and will go over stuff with the builder....thanks. |
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cawgijoe
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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,032
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Post by cawgijoe on Mar 26, 2024 7:48:54 GMT -5
Going to be building a brand new semi-custom home starting this summer or earlier for retirement. The area does not have natural gas, however I see Generac generators using propane. I've never owned a "whole-home" generator. Thinking about adding this while the house is being built instead of later on. Wondering if there is any cost savings because of this. Any suggestions, pointers, heads-up,etc are appreciated. I live and work in Illinois, but one of our clients has a 31 acre property in Michigan, and the house uses electric heat pumps for heating. During the Winter to save money on electricity costs he uses a generator when the temps go below the threshold he determined would get him the most savings (he's an engineer and does know what he's doing). So we installed a 500 gallon IP Gas tank underground that will last the Winter if he chooses to use it. He looks at whatever the current costs are for electric and IP Gas. Installing a generator during construction is the better way to go logistically. While excavation is going on all the underground stuff can be done concurrently, big savings. Plus, there's no "mobilization cost" since everyone is already onsite so electricians and generator techs can work together, slight savings here. And then there's the danger of hitting something buried after the fact if it's done at a later time. Lastly, you get to determine the best spot for the generator and the best path for anything getting buried. Helpful. Will have a new heat pump system. Unsure how reliable the electric system is as we don't currently live in the area. I know I hate losing power and if it goes hours on end, that sucks. Next question would be, how large a generator? Likely would need essentials, fridge, AC/Heat, a few lights, etc.... |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Mar 26, 2024 8:34:01 GMT -5
I live and work in Illinois, but one of our clients has a 31 acre property in Michigan, and the house uses electric heat pumps for heating. During the Winter to save money on electricity costs he uses a generator when the temps go below the threshold he determined would get him the most savings (he's an engineer and does know what he's doing). So we installed a 500 gallon IP Gas tank underground that will last the Winter if he chooses to use it. He looks at whatever the current costs are for electric and IP Gas. Installing a generator during construction is the better way to go logistically. While excavation is going on all the underground stuff can be done concurrently, big savings. Plus, there's no "mobilization cost" since everyone is already onsite so electricians and generator techs can work together, slight savings here. And then there's the danger of hitting something buried after the fact if it's done at a later time. Lastly, you get to determine the best spot for the generator and the best path for anything getting buried. Helpful. Will have a new heat pump system. Unsure how reliable the electric system is as we don't currently live in the area. I know I hate losing power and if it goes hours on end, that sucks. Next question would be, how large a generator? Likely would need essentials, fridge, AC/Heat, a few lights, etc.... You'd be surprised at how quickly the circuits get filled up in a generator panel. That 18KW example I shared was the smallest install our company ever did for the smallest house project we did, and was for a 4500 square foot house with 200A service, so it covered half the circuits. Some houses do half the electric service, and others want the whole thing powered. When swimming pools are involved, those are the ones where the entire service is backed up, at least in our area where things freeze in Winter and they want the pool and spas open year 'round. Make a list of the absolutely gotta have powered on all the time things like fridge, HVAC, sump pumps. Then figure the safety items like lighting in bedrooms, hallways, entry areas, and maybe a bathroom or two. Garages don't need backup these days with battery backup built into the operators which will last days with normal usage and weeks with minimal usage. Next there are the "wants", like powering certain rooms, outlets, etc. And finally the whole ball of wax, the entire house. Assume worst case scenario for if the power is out for weeks. |
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Post by MusicHead on Mar 26, 2024 12:33:23 GMT -5
Helpful. Will have a new heat pump system. Unsure how reliable the electric system is as we don't currently live in the area. I know I hate losing power and if it goes hours on end, that sucks. Next question would be, how large a generator? Likely would need essentials, fridge, AC/Heat, a few lights, etc.... You'd be surprised at how quickly the circuits get filled up in a generator panel. That 18KW example I shared was the smallest install our company ever did for the smallest house project we did, and was for a 4500 square foot house with 200A service, so it covered half the circuits. Some houses do half the electric service, and others want the whole thing powered. When swimming pools are involved, those are the ones where the entire service is backed up, at least in our area where things freeze in Winter and they want the pool and spas open year 'round. Make a list of the absolutely gotta have powered on all the time things like fridge, HVAC, sump pumps. Then figure the safety items like lighting in bedrooms, hallways, entry areas, and maybe a bathroom or two. Garages don't need backup these days with battery backup built into the operators which will last days with normal usage and weeks with minimal usage. Next there are the "wants", like powering certain rooms, outlets, etc. And finally the whole ball of wax, the entire house. Assume worst case scenario for if the power is out for weeks. A few comments coming from my long time experience with a 10kW generator and upgrading last fall to a 24kW model. - We had the 10kW gen from fall of 2009 to fall of 2023. We took advantage of having contractors on site to finish part of our attic. As someone else wrote, that saved us some money on the installation, as it was rolled into the price we were paying for the electrical work in the finished attic space. The 10kW Generac generator price in itself was a little over $3,000 in 2009. - Back then, the generator had its own 100A sub-panel with 10-circuit breakers and the transfer switch (the latter to automatically manage connect/disconnect of generator and main from the house). It was installed in the basement next to the main electrical panel and the electrician had to permanent wire the circuits of the house (up to 10) that we wanted covered by the generator. - With 10kW (really about 9kW due to the Natural Gas power derating vs propane) we could get wired all of the lower floor, basement, garage, the main bedroom upstairs and a common area upstairs where we have the family computer and my Ham Radio station. The kids got stuck with battery operated lanterns in their bedrooms (three) 😄. - Of the appliances, what we did NOT get wired for backup were the dryer, dishwasher and central air conditioning unit. We DID get wired furnace, water heater (runs on gas but still needs power), garage openers, fridge, stove top, oven and microwave. - The longest we have gone with gen power only has been a week, several years ago after a surprise October snow and ice storm. Many areas of the state (Massachusetts) were without power for two weeks. Even not having the whole house gen-supported, we didn't lack confort. We could even help neighbors and friends, many came to spend a night with us on sleeping bags in the family/living room, take a hot shower or store food in our fridge. - The 24kW Generac brought things to a whole new level, price included... It cost just shy of $12,000 installed in early October of 2023, EVERYTHING included (electrician, plumber, permit, inspection, removal of old equipment, 200A all-house transfer switch, etc.) Of that amount, about $7,000 was the generator and transfer switch cost. - This generator came with a whole house transfer switch, installed outside next to the power meter. No more indoor sub-panel with separate circuit breakers, it is all done upstream. With gobs of power available, the whole house and everything in it requiring electricity is wired in if we lose utility power. - There is a ~10 second delay (adjustable) for the generator to start if utility power is lost (to avoid "false" starts if there is just a brown out or very short power loss). Once the main returns, the transition is absolutely seamless, there isn't even a slight flicker (it was the same with the smaller 10kW generator) - The new generator came with Wi-Fi and of course its app. I can monitor remotely status (including battery voltage, ambient temperature, total and partial run time, date and time of utility loss, etc.) CANNOT start/stop the generator remotely, that is a paid, subscription based feature. - There is a programmable "exercise" time, to periodically run the generator. The installer programmed it to start the generator every Saturday afternoon for 5 minutes. - We took advantage of one of those interest free credit card for home improvement, if the balance is paid in full within six month, to spread the cost over that time span. Expensive, but with the weather being what it is and the aging and vulnerable infrastructure here in the Boston area (very few underground power lines), the piece of mind is priceless. Even more so when I travel for work, knowing the rest of the family is safe. I expect to get another 15-20 years out of this generator, perhaps even more. Not even that crazy of an expense if you look at it that way. Often people spend far more for vehicles that are kept for much less time. |
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ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Mar 26, 2024 12:51:32 GMT -5
The installer programmed it to start the generator every Saturday afternoon for 5 minutes. That is a great write up!!! Very informative and useful! Thank you! Around here the air raid sirens sound off every Tuesday at 10am, so everyone programs the weekly generator exercise routine to coincide with the noise from the sirens. |
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Post by MusicHead on Mar 26, 2024 14:15:35 GMT -5
The installer programmed it to start the generator every Saturday afternoon for 5 minutes. That is a great write up!!! Very informative and useful! Thank you! Around here the air raid sirens sound off every Tuesday at 10am, so everyone programs the weekly generator exercise routine to coincide with the noise from the sirens. You are welcome, glad to share if my experience can be useful. Where I live is a high cost of living area. Generator price does not vary much for a given model, but installation cost do. I decided to go with an authorized dealer and installer recommended by Generac for the 24kW one. The smaller 10kW generator was installed by the general contractor that handled the job of the finished attic. Couple more useful information. - Generac power calculator to estimate your power needs: www.generac.com/for-homeowners/home-backup-power/build-your-generator- You can save a little money if you install a smaller generator and then add load shedding modules for the big loads. Each module is ~$300, so in some cases there is really no big difference in total price. Smaller generators do use less gas, though. - Another few hundred bucks option is a whole-house sourge protector. - So is a cellphone module, in case you want an absolutely bullet-proof communication and monitoring system not dependent on your wi-fi. Air raid siren combined with dozens of generator exercising must be quite a symphony... |
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Post by leonski on Mar 26, 2024 15:09:48 GMT -5
How well does PV do in Boston?
Has anyone compared PV / Powerwall WITH a genset over say a 20 year period?
And since your house and many other items SHOULD be in the Family Trust I'd not worry overmuch about resale.
Estate Planning SHOULD be part of this equation.
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,146
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Post by ttocs on Mar 26, 2024 20:17:47 GMT -5
How well does PV do in Boston? Has anyone compared PV / Powerwall WITH a genset over say a 20 year period? And since your house and many other items SHOULD be in the Family Trust I'd not worry overmuch about resale. Estate Planning SHOULD be part of this equation. An issue with Powerwall is the exorbitantly high initial cost for the low continuous output. The power rating on these is tricky. Total Energy Capacity: 14Kw Real Power Rating: Peak 7KW, Continuous 5KW So be prepared to get enough of them for the need. Also, they cannot charge an EV. If you need power for two weeks or a month and natural gas supply is available, you've got power. If you have an IP Gas tank and it's full, you've got power. But when batteries run down and electric power isn't restored yet, then what? Powerwall backup is an elegant device and has a place, but it's just not ready to replace the gas generator. |
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Post by MusicHead on Mar 26, 2024 20:19:42 GMT -5
How well does PV do in Boston? Has anyone compared PV / Powerwall WITH a genset over say a 20 year period? And since your house and many other items SHOULD be in the Family Trust I'd not worry overmuch about resale. Estate Planning SHOULD be part of this equation. Lots of installations around. Many companies have been very aggressive in marketing their "free" systems. My neighbor has it. I very much doubt many installations have energy storage, though. Most people are lured by the "feel good" green mindset and by the electricity bill savings. I am personally skeptical of the viability of home PV systems at these latitudes. They do work, but I am not sure the power generated is worth the hassle. |
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Post by leonski on Mar 26, 2024 20:39:21 GMT -5
How well does PV do in Boston? Has anyone compared PV / Powerwall WITH a genset over say a 20 year period? And since your house and many other items SHOULD be in the Family Trust I'd not worry overmuch about resale. Estate Planning SHOULD be part of this equation. Lots of installations around. Many companies have been very aggressive in marketing their "free" systems. My neighbor has it. I very much doubt many installations have energy storage, though. Most people are lured by the "feel good" green mindset and by the electricity bill savings. I am personally skeptical of the viability of home PV systems at these latitudes. They do work, but I am not sure the power generated is worth the hassle. Repay / Benefits depend in large part on the political aspects. Here in California? My surplus is paid for at low wholesale......0.05$ per kWh or some such. I pay 6x to 8x when I buy power.......which is time of day bound. California also wants to tack on a FIXED FEE depending on income, which they divide into 3 levels. This will pass, since the gate-keepers are all bought and paid for. Link to NetMetering 3 which is enacted fairly recently as such parasite crap goes. Bottom line is the 'push' is to battery as part of your PV system......Panels are lower cost than ever, so in places with 'less' available sun, a few more panels won't be the worst thing that could happen.... I laugh when I see someone with a 400 amp genset or home service panel. My house? 100amp which is adequate given the size of the house and climate. I'm going to add ONE final note. IF the balloon really goes up and you are Dependent on your genset, the NOISE will draw the wrong crowd from a distance. You may not believe how quiet it gets when all the power goes off and auto traffic disappears as everyone heads for home. Any sound will carry and be audible for 10x what it is during tests or 'normal' conditions. |
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 27, 2024 9:18:27 GMT -5
…… The manner in which my original thread got hijacked into who knows what is quite interesting but who cares at this point as long as you guys are having fun Lol
(Leaking remote control batteries to solar panels)?!
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 27, 2024 10:20:54 GMT -5
…… my neighbor across the street has those electrical umbrellas on top of his roof and I asked him a few questions……
First thing he said was I don’t wanna talk about it… Then he started to anyway, and he talked about the fact that he was making too much juice so now he was having a problem with our utility company because of that.
So the contractor put up too many panels and had to come back and shut half of them off to get the poor guy into the realm.
These days when I see him, I only smile and wave and leave those conversations for somebody else.
In the meantime, I get these energy reports from my utility company (I’ve got no panels up there). and they just keep telling me I have one of the most efficient homes in the area… Better than 2/3 of my neighbors at least.
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Post by MusicHead on Mar 27, 2024 11:12:05 GMT -5
…… The manner in which my original thread got hijacked into who knows what is quite interesting but who cares at this point as long as you guys are having fun Lol (Leaking remote control batteries to solar panels)?! Sorry, we got carried away... To help bringing back this thread to its roots, I am happy to report that my "experiment" with two sets of AA Energized Max is proceeding well. I have one set in a small Nux guitar amplifier (it works on battery or USB power) and another in the add-on vertical grip of my Nikon D500 DSLR. The batteries in the amp have been in it since September 2022, those in the camera grip since January 2023. Each single battery is still 100% clean, no leaks. Energizer has a no leak guarantee on their AA, AAA Max and other more specialized batteries: energizer.com/about-batteries/battery-leakage/Do not know if there are any strings attached or how difficult may be to actually make a warranty claim, but, hey, at least they seem to have confidence in their product. |
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 27, 2024 11:33:57 GMT -5
…… The manner in which my original thread got hijacked into who knows what is quite interesting but who cares at this point as long as you guys are having fun Lol (Leaking remote control batteries to solar panels)?! Sorry, we got carried away... To help bringing back this thread to its roots, I am happy to report that my "experiment" with two sets of AA Energized Max is proceeding well. I have one set in a small Nux guitar amplifier (it works on battery or USB power) and another in the add-on vertical grip of my Nikon D500 DSLR. The batteries in the amp have been in it since September 2022, those in the camera grip since January 2023. Each single battery is still 100% clean, no leaks. Energizer has a no leak guarantee on their AA, AAA Max and other more specialized batteries: energizer.com/about-batteries/battery-leakage/Do not know if there are any strings attached or how difficult may be to actually make a warranty claim, but, hey, at least they seem to have confidence in their product. That’s great news. I read the warranty. Still yours are nice high-tech items, but I wouldn’t want to see fall victim to the acid but at least there’s some hope there. |
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Post by MusicHead on Mar 27, 2024 12:36:13 GMT -5
Sorry, we got carried away... To help bringing back this thread to its roots, I am happy to report that my "experiment" with two sets of AA Energized Max is proceeding well. I have one set in a small Nux guitar amplifier (it works on battery or USB power) and another in the add-on vertical grip of my Nikon D500 DSLR. The batteries in the amp have been in it since September 2022, those in the camera grip since January 2023. Each single battery is still 100% clean, no leaks. Energizer has a no leak guarantee on their AA, AAA Max and other more specialized batteries: energizer.com/about-batteries/battery-leakage/Do not know if there are any strings attached or how difficult may be to actually make a warranty claim, but, hey, at least they seem to have confidence in their product. That’s great news. I read the warranty. Still yours are nice high-tech items, but I wouldn’t want to see fall victim to the acid but at least there’s some hope there. It is a relatively low risk experiment. The Nux amplifier cost only $59, it was on sale from Guitar Center. The batteries in the grip are installed on a sled, even if there is a leak I doubt it could do much damage. To be fair, even when I had batteries leaking, I have never had any electronics suffering crippling damages. At the most I had to clean the contacts in the battery compartment. |
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