Listening to the UMC-1

[snodog]

Ok some of the audio jargon can be confusing. Yes I read an article recently that used a pretty standard inexpensive HDMI cable vs a top notch one and there was visually no difference at all. Not sure why people support these companies. That is cool Moe do you have any favorites or suggestions? I think the only SACD I have is a hybrid but anyway its the Dances with wolves soundtrack. I havent been able to play it yet, I need an SACD player and my UMC!

[Chris]

Feb 1, 2010 19:48:11 GMT -5 moe said:

As to the $2 vs $100 hdmi cable being "same quality"I dunno,but same audio quality,maybe.I think about $10 gets you a good cable,guage,shielding and longevity being a good thing.

Okay, I should have said $3.04 for a 1.5 foot cable here:
www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024007&p_id=4053&seq=1&format=2

And they come in lots of pretty colors. I buy them in bulk so I am never tempted to emergency buy one from local BM chains. Never had one fail or act up in any way. If you want to spend $10 or $20 for something else with shiny connectors then knock yourself out. I've got boxes full of boutique audio cables lying around. Just don't try to convince me when dealing with digital bits that one cable's bits are more coddled and cared for than one I can buy for three bucks!

-CB

[a2058]

Feb 1, 2010 18:57:32 GMT -5 jmilton said:

Oppo confirmed DSD via HDMI. I will pose the question to Lonnie.

I am also interested in this feature, do post your findings. According to the ORIGINAL Cirrus spec sheets, the chips used in UMC are capable of taking the DSD signal, then converting to PCM via a filter for post processing. I also read somewhere that Oppo 980H and their BD players directly convert DSD to analog for 5.1 output. I currently use Oppo 980H and connect to LMC-1 via the external 7.1 inputs. This sounds so good. One thing you could test if you have not done so and may be I missed it, is to connect your player via HDMI and 5.1 analog outs. When DSD over HDMI is selected in Oppo, I believe the analog outs are muted whereas LPCM outs, analog outs are not muted. This is because it is dependent on where they take the DSD signals out for processing.

Do keep us posted...

[NorthStar]

Feb 1, 2010 10:00:05 GMT -5 lonnie said:

Just for clarificaiton because I see some confusion here. The Cirrus chips no longer support DSD. I don't know the reasons behind this, but we were just told by Cirrus that they will no longer be supporting DSD. So it is not a matter of licensing on our part, it is just the coding within the chip is no longer active.

Hope this helps.

Yes, it does help, thank you very much, couldn't be more clear than this, finally.

[NorthStar]

Feb 1, 2010 19:34:09 GMT -5 @snodog said:

but I just read DSD is not working with the chips. This gets more confusing, wish I could just get the damn thing and try it out for myself

It does work, but not as a full direct bitstream DSD audio digital signal output, simply as a downconverted PCM signal, that's all, but still excellent audio quality nonetheless.

[moe]

Feb 1, 2010 21:00:39 GMT -5 Chris said:

Feb 1, 2010 19:48:11 GMT -5 moe said:

As to the $2 vs $100 hdmi cable being "same quality"I dunno,but same audio quality,maybe.I think about $10 gets you a good cable,guage,shielding and longevity being a good thing.

Okay, I should have said $3.04 for a 1.5 foot cable here:
www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024007&p_id=4053&seq=1&format=2

And they come in lots of pretty colors. I buy them in bulk so I am never tempted to emergency buy one from local BM chains. Never had one fail or act up in any way. If you want to spend $10 or $20 for something else with shiny connectors then knock yourself out. I've got boxes full of boutique audio cables lying around. Just don't try to convince me when dealing with digital bits that one cable's bits are more coddled and cared for than one I can buy for three bucks!

-CB

Yeh....I blowed $10 on some high fashion"boutique" hdmi audiophile cables....
And I'm trying to convince you that my $10 audiophile cables are superior to the $2 ones What can I say? I'm a snakeoil salesman,lol.......just not one that's gonna make much money....

[Nemesis.ie]

The Emotiva HDMI cables are really nicely built and not "silly" prices. Just a bit extra for the look/quality.

[bootman]

Feb 1, 2010 21:00:39 GMT -5 Chris said:

Feb 1, 2010 19:48:11 GMT -5 moe said:

As to the $2 vs $100 hdmi cable being "same quality"I dunno,but same audio quality,maybe.I think about $10 gets you a good cable,guage,shielding and longevity being a good thing.

Okay, I should have said $3.04 for a 1.5 foot cable here:
www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024007&p_id=4053&seq=1&format=2

And they come in lots of pretty colors. I buy them in bulk so I am never tempted to emergency buy one from local BM chains. Never had one fail or act up in any way. If you want to spend $10 or $20 for something else with shiny connectors then knock yourself out. I've got boxes full of boutique audio cables lying around. Just don't try to convince me when dealing with digital bits that one cable's bits are more coddled and cared for than one I can buy for three bucks!

-CB

There is a lot more to the 'bits is just bits" argument.

All digital cables carry analog waves at very high frequencies.
So there can be differences in cables which affect performance.

However, a properly made 1.3 cable should work fine.

But I have seen my share of budget cables fall apart in my hands.

Like everything else, YMMV. ;D

[Chris]

Feb 2, 2010 12:57:43 GMT -5 bootman said:

Feb 1, 2010 21:00:39 GMT -5 Chris said:

Okay, I should have said $3.04 for a 1.5 foot cable here:
www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024007&p_id=4053&seq=1&format=2

Just don't try to convince me when dealing with digital bits that one cable's bits are more coddled and cared for than one I can buy for three bucks!

-CB

There is a lot more to the 'bits is just bits" argument.

All digital cables carry analog waves at very high frequencies.

This is is news to me! The word digital means 0's and 1's to me. Optical/Coaxial SPDIF and HDMI are all to my knowledge completely digital from end to end. I'd like to know where these "analog waves" are hiding so I can get rid of them!

Please, if you have documentation that confirms the existence of these "analog waves" please give us the links. I'm all ears!

I'll get you started with a quote from www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#1:

HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) is the first and only industry-supported, uncompressed, all-digital audio/video interface.

BTW, I like the Emotiva cables just fine. They are reasonably priced. I've even purchased some. I still don't think their digital cables "baby" the digital bits any better than the one's at monoprice but that's just my opinion.

-CB

[bootman]

Feb 2, 2010 15:41:07 GMT -5 Chris said:

Feb 2, 2010 12:57:43 GMT -5 bootman said:

There is a lot more to the 'bits is just bits" argument.

All digital cables carry analog waves at very high frequencies.

This is is news to me! The word digital means 0's and 1's to me. Optical/Coaxial SPDIF and HDMI are all to my knowledge completely digital from end to end. I'd like to know where these "analog waves" are hiding so I can get rid of them!

Please, if you have documentation that confirms the existence of these "analog waves" please give us the links. I'm all ears!

I'll get you started with a quote from www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#1:

HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) is the first and only industry-supported, uncompressed, all-digital audio/video interface.

BTW, I like the Emotiva cables just fine. They are reasonably priced. I've even purchased some. I still don't think their digital cables "baby" the digital bits any better than the one's at monoprice but that's just my opinion.

-CB

I'll try to put it as simply as possible without going deep into digital transmission theory.

An analog wave has a positive and negative swing.
(picture a simple sine wave)

A digital signal is represented like a square wave where the peaks are extended through time.
This is how the zeros and ones are represented in the digital world.
example:
A positive voltage can equal "one" or "on".
A negative voltage can equal "zero" or "off"

How both types of signals travel through a medium (copper, fiber, air, etc) is exactly the same.

The higher in frequency you go the faster you can stream the ones and zeros.
But as you increase the frequency of the signal it gets harder for that same signal to go through a given medium without changing due to different factors like resistance and outside interference.


With an analog signal, changes in the wave results in distortions which become visible or audible. (depending on the type of signal)

Now with digital, changes in the wave results in data loss.
Error correction circuits attempt to compensate for this loss.
However, when the errors become so great that the ECC cannot fully replicate the signal, you start to get interesting results.

With video, you can start seeing things like picture freezes or macro blocking.
Then there will come a point if things get bad enough that you will get no picture at all.


I haven't even scratched the surface of digital transmission but hopefully you can visualize how once the digital signal hits the cable, it basically behaves like an analog one.
It's only "ones and zeros" while it is in the transistors.
(and even that is not 100% accurate )

Geesh, we are way off topic here.
Lets get back to listening to the UMC.

[jmilton]

Boot! Well postulated!!

[snodog]

People who claim that the spendy cables sound better are the ones who bought them. I can tell a good made product from junk, something in the middle is just fine, unless of course your ears can pick up frequencies like a dog and you can tell what metals the wire is stranded in, or wait that doesn't sound like stranded wire to me...more like only a double weave

[dfdo]

Bootman, well explained "it is only 0s and 1s theory" in layman's terms

[bootman]

Feb 2, 2010 17:23:49 GMT -5 @snodog said:

People who claim that the spendy cables sound better are the ones who bought them. I can tell a good made product from junk, something in the middle is just fine, unless of course your ears can pick up frequencies like a dog and you can tell what metals the wire is stranded in, or wait that doesn't sound like stranded wire to me...more like only a double weave

Cable can sound different.
Price however is not the reason why. ;D

You can design a cable to act like a tone control. (pretty easy actually)
A speaker cable made up of CAT5 wire is a good example. (High capacitance)
Some manufactures build circuits into their cable to shape the sound. (Think older MIT cables)

[bootman]

Feb 2, 2010 16:42:51 GMT -5 jmilton said:

Boot! Well postulated!!

Feb 2, 2010 17:31:00 GMT -5 dfdo said:

Bootman, well explained "it is only 0s and 1s theory" in layman's terms

Stop it!

I have a reputation to uphold as the useless poster.

[markd]

Try this one-

www.hdmi.org/installers/eyediagram.aspx

And there is no error correction in HDMI video (don't think there is any in the audio either, but that's not really my area ;-).

With clear (non-encrypted) video, closing eye diagrams look like little "sparklies". With HDCP, well, lets just say it isn't very robust to data loss.

That said, with a short cable and reasonable equipment, you don't need to spend much. If you are pulling a 50' cable through your ceiling, I'd recommend spending a little more.

[rooster]

I would agree with that. I am currently having video issues with a 30 foot run of the monoprice hdmi cable from the UMC. Even tried one of their signal boosters to no avail. Last night's House exhibited pronounced macroblock of dark background, and this morning I got no audio and very corrupted video for my daughter's Sesame Street. I'll play around a little with the cable run from the DirecTV receiver to the UMC, but that is a very short run. May have to go back to a straight run, bypassing the umc, which would still show light sparklies but still a decent picture. Or might try the bluejean hdmi cable.

[Dan Laufman]

Hi Rooster,
It's your cable. We've run the UMC-1 in multiple installations here with longer then 30' runs all of the time with no issues. You must use a VERY high quality HDMI cable for long runs, fully rated for 1080p bandwidth. Capacitance becomes a huge issue as the cable length is increased. I'm not knocking your cable, but please try a higher quality cable from your supplier. All HDMI cables are necessarily in the same league.

Trust me on this; it is not an issue or a fault with the UMC-1. Also, you should not be getting "sparkles" under any circumstances. We do it all of the time with perfect results.
Rgds,
Dan

[bootman]

Feb 2, 2010 18:34:04 GMT -5 markd said:

Try this one-

www.hdmi.org/installers/eyediagram.aspx

And there is no error correction in HDMI video (don't think there is any in the audio either, but that's not really my area ;-).

With clear (non-encrypted) video, closing eye diagrams look like little "sparklies". With HDCP, well, lets just say it isn't very robust to data loss.

That said, with a short cable and reasonable equipment, you don't need to spend much. If you are pulling a 50' cable through your ceiling, I'd recommend spending a little more.

But isn't there is parity data in TMDS?
Sorry I'm not a video engineer so maybe I'm off base.

[Chris]

Feb 2, 2010 19:34:29 GMT -5 rooster said:

video issues with a 30 foot run of the monoprice hdmi cable from the UMC.

Isn't a 30 foot run of HDMI approaching the practical limit of approved length? I see some mentions on the web being at most 50 feet? Have you tried using hdmi over ethernet adapters? I use this approach to make a run from my basement to my kitchen and it has worked perfectly. Just another option.

-CB