LCSeminole
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Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,848
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Post by LCSeminole on Feb 6, 2010 11:05:03 GMT -5
No Bill,no kiddin',show me one unit thats been released(I may be unaware) where owners did not have lots of complaints of having to crank the center to hear dialog.The umc is the first Ive had that at low/normal volume I can hear dialog clearly. Moe, Funny you should ask ;D. I just fired up my 886 and checked my speaker levels with my SPL meter and they are L Front -1.0 Center -2.5 R Front -1.5 (75dB). I have no issues with dialog for movies or TV viewing at any volume. So I think I just showed you one unit that the center level does not have to be cranked to hear center channel dialog  . Now you are the one that claims NO processor since the beginning of time has handled the level of center channel dialog correctly. Do you realize how inaccurate that statement is? There are more variables in the level of center channel dialog than just the processor. You have to consider the speaker (  ), its placement as well as the room and its acoustics. And if the dialog is low just raise the level, thats what trim levels are for ;D. Bill Bill, Just to add to your thoughts, Isn't tweaking a wonderful thing??? If not for the abilitiy to tweak a home theater to one's taste, uniformity would creep in and we'd all have the same opinions therefore a "Pleasantville" type effect. Trim levels were sent here by the home theater gods!!! ;D |
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Post by billmac on Feb 6, 2010 11:06:24 GMT -5
It only does one thing, give you a perfect measurement of in room sound response and amplitude from 20hz-20khz at the mic position. How do know it is perfect? Bill |
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Post by teedub21 on Feb 6, 2010 11:07:37 GMT -5
Thats why I canceled the order for my 5507. I don't need all the video calibration settings, plus the Onkyo cost me $1000 more than the Emo and I'm hoping the Emo sounds better. In the end, to me, sound quality is most important, but YMMV.
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Post by billmac on Feb 6, 2010 11:12:44 GMT -5
Bill, Just to add to your thoughts, Isn't tweaking a wonderful thing??? If not for the abilitiy to tweak a home theater to one's taste, uniformity would creep in and we'd all have the same opinions therefore a "Pleasantville" type effect. Trim levels were sent here by the home theater gods!!! ;D LC, So true  . Everyone has different tastes and if you do not like room correction (or whatever) thats great its all up to the individual. I wish I was in the Sunshine state as it is a balmy 18' here in So. Maine  . Bill |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Feb 6, 2010 11:14:22 GMT -5
It only does one thing, give you a perfect measurement of in room sound response and amplitude from 20hz-20khz at the mic position. How do know it is perfect? Bill Audiocontrol has been making professional RTA's for decades, they are all calibrated. It will be far more accurate than a built in chip processor with a narrowband 50 cent plastic mic. |
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Post by moe on Feb 6, 2010 11:19:49 GMT -5
No Bill,no kiddin',show me one unit thats been released(I may be unaware) where owners did not have lots of complaints of having to crank the center to hear dialog.The umc is the first Ive had that at low/normal volume I can hear dialog clearly. Moe, Funny you should ask ;D. I just fired up my 886 and checked my speaker levels with my SPL meter and they are L Front -1.0 Center -2.5 R Front -1.5 (75dB). I have no issues with dialog for movies or TV viewing at any volume. So I think I just showed you one unit that the center level does not have to be cranked to hear center channel dialog . Now you are the one that claims NO processor since the beginning of time has handled the level of center channel dialog correctly. Do you realize how inaccurate that statement is? There are more variables in the level of center channel dialog than just the processor. You have to consider the speaker ( ), its placement as well as the room and its acoustics. And if the dialog is low just raise the level, thats what trim levels are for ;D. Bill Do you realize how inaccurate that statement is? Show me where I said "NO" prepro,I said it's been an 'issue" I suppose you can interpret as you please,but use MY words if quoting.I'm waiting for you to show me the units that have NO complaints of low dialog at normal levels,I know it's not an issue for every single person. |
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Post by billmac on Feb 6, 2010 11:26:35 GMT -5
Audiocontrol has been making professional RTA's for decades, they are all calibrated. It will be far more accurate than a built in chip processor with a narrowband 50 cent plastic mic. I have no doubt that the Audiocontrol unit would measure my room far more accurately than my 886 with Audyssey ever would. Saying the Audiocontrol does it perfectly is what I find hard to believe. I do not think there is a perfect audio device out there but I could be totally wrong (nothing new ;D). Bill |
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Post by SeattleHTGuy on Feb 6, 2010 11:27:15 GMT -5
I own a Denon 4810 and use a lot of Emo power to enhance. You will not find a single comment on the AVS thread for this unit saying anything about light center. Not one, period Finito!
I have never read anything to that effect. No slam on Emotiva's UMC-1 but your statement is too broad.
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Post by billmac on Feb 6, 2010 11:37:02 GMT -5
Do you realize how inaccurate that statement is? Show me where I said "NO" prepro,I said it's been an 'issue" I suppose you can interpret as you please,but use MY words if quoting.I'm waiting for you to show me the units that have NO complaints of low dialog at normal levels,I know it's not an issue for every single person. OK you did not say NO processor you said it is an issue with EVERY processor. Big difference I admit . I do not think you are getting my point any SYSTEM can have dialog issues it is not JUST the processor that can be the issue. I have my surrounds 4-5dB lower than my LCR speakers because of their placement. Does that mean my 886 is not handling the surround levels properly. No it is because of their placement . I do not think it is on me to show you proof that EVERY processor does not handle dialog levels properly. I believe it would be on you to prove your statement that it is the processor and the processor alone causing the level issues in EVERY processor . Bill |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Feb 6, 2010 11:38:46 GMT -5
Audiocontrol has been making professional RTA's for decades, they are all calibrated. It will be far more accurate than a built in chip processor with a narrowband 50 cent plastic mic. I have no doubt that the Audiocontrol unit would measure my room far more accurately than my 886 with Audyssey ever would. Saying the Audiocontrol does it perfectly is what I find hard to believe. I do not think there is a perfect audio device out there but I could be totally wrong (nothing new ;D). Bill They are accurate +/- .1 db 20hz-20khz, from 44-136db. Far beyond what the human ear is able to detect. Again a professional RTA will get results you will not come close to with the 886's setup mic and software. And when you upgrade or swap out equipment you will have a tool that can be used over and over again regardless of your upgraditis, for HT, 2 channel, car audio etc. Ive been using mine for 15 years, both for professional and personal use. Takes the countless hours of tweaking and guess work out of setting up your audio system to match up perfectly with the listening environment. |
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Post by moe on Feb 6, 2010 12:10:07 GMT -5
I own a Denon 4810 and use a lot of Emo power to enhance. You will not find a single comment on the AVS thread for this unit saying anything about light center. Not one, period Finito! I have never read anything to that effect. No slam on Emotiva's UMC-1 but your statement is too broad. I think your The 4810 has been out what,a couple months,I'll reevaluate and continue that discussion in a year when it's widely owned.I am a Denon fan,owned many,still have one,generally rock solid with dry musical sound. |
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Post by moe on Feb 6, 2010 12:19:05 GMT -5
Bill,I was just trying to point out to the original poster that said it's his $k center speaker that's the problem.I noted that's not likely.I said the low center /dialog output has been an issue since the beginning with avrs and prepros,if you honestly dispute that to yourself,fine.
It's like you guys look for any chance to dispute anything,even if it's only one thousands you could point to,that was not the spirit of my post,enjoy your day.
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Post by billmac on Feb 6, 2010 12:35:27 GMT -5
Bill,I was just trying to point out to the original poster that said it's his $k center speaker that's the problem.I noted that's not likely.I said the low center /dialog output has been an issue since the beginning with avrs and prepros,if you honestly dispute that to yourself,fine. It's like you guys look for any chance to dispute anything,even if it's only one thousands you could point to,that was not the spirit of my post,enjoy your day. Moe, I understand where you are coming from . I'm not trying to be arguementive but you do not seem to want to also consider the other points I bring up. You seem like your mind is made up that it is a processor issue when it can be other factors as well. I try to keep an open mind on this hobby of ours maybe you can just give my points some consideration . I am far from an expert thats for sure and I learn more things about this hobby (obsession) everyday . You have a great day as well! Bill |
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Post by billmac on Feb 6, 2010 12:43:35 GMT -5
They are accurate +/- .1 db 20hz-20khz, from 44-136db. Far beyond what the human ear is able to detect. Again a professional RTA will get results you will not come close to with the 886's setup mic and software. And when you upgrade or swap out equipment you will have a tool that can be used over and over again regardless of your upgraditis, for HT, 2 channel, car audio etc. Ive been using mine for 15 years, both for professional and personal use. Takes the countless hours of tweaking and guess work out of setting up your audio system to match up perfectly with the listening environment. ntrain42, I will throw in the towel and admit the Audiocontrol does look to be a very accurate calibration unit. My apologies for pushing the "perfect" angle. It is apparent to me that you are far more knowledgable in room calibration than I ever will be. Do you rent the Audiocontrol out as I live over in So. Maine and see you are in Nashua . Not that I would know how to properly use it . Bill |
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ratmice
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Post by ratmice on Feb 6, 2010 13:09:38 GMT -5
Looks like an interesting piece. But it looks like it is more than a few hundred bucks by that ebay link. But as you mention buy it once and no matter the equipment changes it will be there. I am sure it works well but perfectly, is there such a thing in audio? . Bill There are much cheaper ways to get into using an RTA for room analysis, such as: www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/Bingo! |
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Post by lakercrackhead on Feb 6, 2010 14:43:43 GMT -5
Well got my Onkyo 886 in last night, I gotta say it is incredible. It pairs with my Klipsch RF-83 system very well. The Audyssey calibration is spot on, and the dynamic EQ really does make sound pop, my wife watched our wedding video last night and she said she could hear peoples coversations in the background, we never heard that before, just shows the detail, it's awesome! My one complaint and seems like a problem inherent to enocoding and not necessarily the amp is the center channel dialogue is still too low, I don't understand why this is always a problem, I'm open to suggestions, all I could think of was to turn up the center channel volume, I can't go up on the master volume because then all the background sound effects get unbearably loud. Ok guys, lots of speculation about why this happens, wow! The good news I figured out what is going on, #1, no it's not my speaker it's a RC-64, probably one of the best center channels around, it's a beast about 60 lbs. #2, no it's not the onkyo 886. This issue happens when listening to dolby digital sources due to the wide dynamic range, it's actually how the program is encoded. Trust me, I did a lot of research on this topic, go here:http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-dialog-normalization-6-2000.html it gives more info. Now in my case, I have highly efficient speakers all around, and so surround sound sounds awesome but as designed big sound effect sounds louder than the dialogue. The issue for me, I live in a small apartment right now, so I can't turn up the volume to "reference level" therefore I need a way to turn down the sound effects while keeping the center channel the same volume. One solution, is yes, turning up the center channel, right now believe it or not auddysey set it to -11db, I don't really like turning up the center channel because the system is balanced very well right now, also depending on the source a lot of sound effects actually originate from the center channel. The other option, is using "night mode" or on auddyssey using dynamic volume which shrinks th dynamic range, I used the light compression, and sounds perfect now, still get the booming just not quite as crazy as before, however now I can turn up the master volume and the center channel dialogue is amazingly clear while sound effects are just a bit lounder than the dialogue. BTW dolby digital is the reason why even without touching your volume, commercials are so loud, they utilize the upper range of the dolby digital dynamic range. Well hopefully this explains some center channel "problems" others may have. Well, I just rented District 9 on bluray, Imma watch my first bluray today, it's still early so maybe I'll hit "reference level" |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 6, 2010 16:22:46 GMT -5
dude you really don't know what your talking about man.... you have all kinds of ideas that are screwy pal! understand that 6db is a doubling or halving ehh! Your experience is proof Audyssey is BS for the most part and should only be used as a reference. You do have some strange ideas that reflect key concepts are not understood. I'd set center channel to small and set it's xover to no lower than 70Hz and it's level to -4db. That would remove any lower frequencies from originating from it and also increase volume by double. Turning on compression sucks IMHO and can be avoided.
PS perhaps you have the polarity backward on the speaker or amp terminals for your center !?!
PSS I'd hardly call any Klipsch speaker the "best around"
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Post by solidstate on Feb 6, 2010 17:01:27 GMT -5
Set all speakers to small.
Set xover for each channel separately not globally
Set mains to 60Hz, Center to 80Hz and rears to 100Hz
Set each channel trim to 0db to start.
Give it a listen and tell us if you have the center channel problems.
IMHO what I think is going on is your feeding that speaker a full range signal with no xover and your experiencing distortion and lower frequency port huffing etc (wait it's sealed) as that speaker isn't as good as you think down low. It's spec'd down to 62Hz so xover is best set to 80-90Hz OR you have the polarity backwards! OR the Klipsch performance is now being exposed due to the better gear driving it!
PS Are you really female!?!
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Post by alabamaboy on Feb 6, 2010 17:13:57 GMT -5
PSS I'd hardly call any Klipsch speaker the "best around" LOL... you just knew that was coming |
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Post by SeattleHTGuy on Feb 6, 2010 17:15:21 GMT -5
Please see the follwing Audyssey explanation of level setting by Batpig! I do not agree at all that Audyssey is the problem. You just need to know what everything means. Solidstate is correct (IMHO) regarding the crossover manual settings. Audyssey recommends you set the crossover point a bit higher than the "Full Standard". Also, each Receiver manufacturers forces/interprets Audyssey set points (Crossover, Speaker Size, etc) and this may color your results. Also, doesn't your Receiver have Dynamic EQ? That feature should correct your less than reference level center channel issues as well as keep your surround levels even for lower level watching/listening. Dynamic Volume is a an additional processing that squalches range. EQ corrects for less than full blast listening. See Post: nothing is wrong, the differnce is that your new unit has Dynamic EQ and thus it must calibrate all your speakers to a specified "Reference Level" in order for Dyn EQ to function correctly. your previous receivers, which did not have Dyn EQ, only needed to balance the speaker volumes to each other (relative). with Dyn EQ, the volumes are balanced as before but also set to a specified volume (absolute) so it knows exactly how much compensation is needed. basically, Dyn EQ is calibrating your volume dial so that "0" is equal to "reference", or 75dB on those test tones (which are 30dB below full scale, or 105dB per channel max). Since Dyn EQ works by compensating as you drop the volume below reference levels, this allows it to start with a defined reference level so it knows exactly how far to compensate. this works perfectly for films sources; for non film sources, especially cable tV and music, which are not mixed to the same levels as film, you may need to set the "refernce level offset" to 10dB (Audio Adjust > Audyssey settings) so Dyn EQ doesn't compensate so aggressively (if you are hearing boomy/flabby bass and too-loud surrounds while watching TV, this is the cause). __________________ batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary" Setup Guide and FAQ batpigworld.com/batpigworld Harmony codes for Denon AVR's NEW! Become a fan "batpigworld.com" on Facebook! |
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), its placement as well as the room and its acoustics. And if the dialog is low just raise the level, thats what trim levels are for ;D.
. Everyone has different tastes and if you do not like room correction (or whatever) thats great its all up to the individual. I wish I was in the Sunshine state as it is a balmy 18' here in So. Maine 
.
