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Post by pynchon on Feb 15, 2010 20:52:58 GMT -5
I don't see how this is an issue at all. If you are a 'videophile' then why would you ever do any critical viewing with a 480i input even with a video processor? Seriously. So 480i is turned to 480p - good. I think the umc-1 is designed to upscale cable to 1080p60hz - good - that's one reason I plan on buying it. You can pass thru 1080p24 - good enough. Using a dvdo or something - put it on pass through - I can't imagine there's anything really wrong with that. 480i on a large screen is garbage - there is no way around that regardless of your video scaler - no matter what you are using you are upscaling a crappy image into a smoother, smearer (color) image then processing sharpness - it is Mccolor. You people are nitpicky You don't understand. It chooses 480p for the SD source. FINE. But then it STAYS at 480p for any other input\source you turn to (until you go back into the menu and select pass through)--Think Blu-Ray disc. You get back to me and let me know if you think watching a Blu Ray at 480p is a pleasant experience. What you state I see as an issue, I guess that's the universal video setting issue - so every time switching from cable to blu ray you have to switch the video upscale - can that be done on the remote? Some people though are complaining they can't get "pure" 480i - really? with a dvdo you'd always have umc-1 set to pass through, right? with cbale/blu ray - you want 1080p60 (cable) maybe switch to pass through (1080/24 blu ray) right? |
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Post by ripcordaff on Feb 15, 2010 20:56:54 GMT -5
You don't understand. It chooses 480p for the SD source. FINE. But then it STAYS at 480p for any other input\source you turn to (until you go back into the menu and select pass through)--Think Blu-Ray disc. You get back to me and let me know if you think watching a Blu Ray at 480p is a pleasant experience. What you state I see as an issue, I guess that's the universal video setting issue - so every time switching from cable to blu ray you have to switch the video upscale - can that be done on the remote? Some people though are complaining they can't get "pure" 480i - really? with a dvdo you'd always have umc-1 set to pass through, right? with cbale/blu ray - you want 1080p60 (cable) maybe switch to pass through (1080/24 blu ray) right? Yes it "can" be done on the remote. But that entails opening up the menu, video set up, selecting pass through. If some people are fine with those series of steps in order to change the channel from SD CNN to HD Discovery, fine by me..I am NOT though. The issue will arise any time anybody who watches any standard definition content (SD TV and doesn't want to use its upscaler, or STBs that have no scaler) and also would like to occasionally watch HD content without re-setting up the UMC between every switch |
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Post by jerrym303 on Feb 15, 2010 23:27:31 GMT -5
You don't understand. It chooses 480p for the SD source. FINE. But then it STAYS at 480p for any other input\source you turn to (until you go back into the menu and select pass through)--Think Blu-Ray disc. You get back to me and let me know if you think watching a Blu Ray at 480p is a pleasant experience. What you state I see as an issue, I guess that's the universal video setting issue - so every time switching from cable to blu ray you have to switch the video upscale - can that be done on the remote? Some people though are complaining they can't get "pure" 480i - really? with a dvdo you'd always have umc-1 set to pass through, right? with cbale/blu ray - you want 1080p60 (cable) maybe switch to pass through (1080/24 blu ray) right? I'm not sure that you are thinking this through. If a processor is downstream of the UMC-1, then the problem is the same as described by several posters. THE UMC SHIFTS OUT OF PASSTHROUGH MODE WHEN IT SNIFFS AN SD PROGRAM. After that, it must be manually set. This is beyond a global setting issue as a DVR will be sending different resolutions (native) for different channels. For anyone with multiple users, this is a no-go.. If this true, I'll pass when they get to me in a few weeks. |
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Post by ripcordaff on Feb 15, 2010 23:35:26 GMT -5
What you state I see as an issue, I guess that's the universal video setting issue - so every time switching from cable to blu ray you have to switch the video upscale - can that be done on the remote? Some people though are complaining they can't get "pure" 480i - really? with a dvdo you'd always have umc-1 set to pass through, right? with cbale/blu ray - you want 1080p60 (cable) maybe switch to pass through (1080/24 blu ray) right? I'm not sure that you are thinking this through. If a processor is downstream of the UMC-1, then the problem is the same as described by several posters. THE UMC SHIFTS OUT OF PASSTHROUGH MODE WHEN IT SNIFFS AN SD PROGRAM. After that, it must be manually set. This is beyond a global setting issue as a DVR will be sending different resolutions (native) for different channels. For anyone with multiple users, this is a no-go.. If this true, I'll pass when they get to me in a few weeks. Indeed this is what I am trying to articulate. Its a big enough issue I can't believe others haven't mentioned it. I will talk to them tomorrow, but if its not a bug, and "as designed", its a game-killer |
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lonnie
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Post by lonnie on Feb 15, 2010 23:39:13 GMT -5
I'm not sure that you are thinking this through. If a processor is downstream of the UMC-1, then the problem is the same as described by several posters. THE UMC SHIFTS OUT OF PASSTHROUGH MODE WHEN IT SNIFFS AN SD PROGRAM. After that, it must be manually set. This is beyond a global setting issue as a DVR will be sending different resolutions (native) for different channels. For anyone with multiple users, this is a no-go.. If this true, I'll pass when they get to me in a few weeks. Indeed this is what I am trying to articulate. Its a big enough issue I can't believe others haven't mentioned it. I will talk to them tomorrow, but if its not a bug, and "as designed", its a game-killer The system is designed to port out 480p as a minimum resolution. |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Feb 15, 2010 23:39:51 GMT -5
I take from Lonnie's post that 480i over HDMI isn't supported period. This would include pass through. If your display handles this correctly, then just run it to the display directly. Run coax or optical for audio and be done with it. Videophiles are a very small minority.  VIDEOPHILES?! Are you insinuating that this design decision will only impact videophiles? I will wait to talk to Lonnie about it, but this, alone and solely, will be responsible for my UMC return if it reverts to 480p for SD TV. I cannot be the only one who wishes to avoid UMC video processing on at least one input for one reason or another. My reason happens to be that that my Mac Mini outputs a display to my LCD TV that looks terrible when additional video processing is applied on top of it. Therefore, I was glad to see a pass-through mode. But if you select the mode that emo provides, god forbid you ever see a 480i SD signal because then you are forced to open the menu and set to pass through when you are done. Otherwise, as previously noted, HD sources will be stuck in the 480p chosen by the device. Now, I am NOT a videophile, and I may be the only one on this board that does so, but OCCASIONALLY I might be found torturing myself by watching a SD TV channel. As another poster noted, Set top boxes are extremely poor at upscaling so I leave it at source resolution. When I am done with this channel, I will have to rejigger the menu settings to allow me to watch a Blu-ray in 1080 as opposed to 480p. As I said. I'll wait to talk to Lonnie about it, but if a fix is not coming, its going back and the single UMC return they have had will have a sibling. By videophile, I was referring to those who searches for players that can output 480i over HDMI. Very few do and they are catered for videophiles. Sorry you took this the wrong way. Was not my intent. Now to your original issue, you rather have your display convert the 480i of the STB to (I assume) 1080p, correct? You see this as a better picture than say having the UMC on auto and having it convert the STB input to 1080p. Just trying to clarify your exact setup. |
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Post by emoforme on Feb 15, 2010 23:55:06 GMT -5
You don't understand. It chooses 480p for the SD source. FINE. But then it STAYS at 480p for any other input\source you turn to (until you go back into the menu and select pass through)--Think Blu-Ray disc. You get back to me and let me know if you think watching a Blu Ray at 480p is a pleasant experience. EXACTLY!!!!! How ridiculous is it for something like this to get overlooked? The UMC-1 literally "LOCKS" the resolution down to 480P even if I just pull up my cable box menu guide. So now you want to go back to an HD channel or switch to your blu ray?? Well....guess what? ..... 480P?!?!? Give me a break. You literally have to manually re-enter the resolution settings each and every time you switch. I don't know about you guys but I find this TOTALLY unacceptable.  I posted about this very issue after I applied my FW update last week: emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=preamps&thread=9299&page=15#140497(No one seemed to even notice) Who in their right mind would consider this to be logically designed? It's beyond me. |
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Post by emoforme on Feb 16, 2010 0:07:37 GMT -5
The system is designed to port out 480p as a minimum resolution. Lonnie, even if the system is designed to port out 480P as the minimum, SURELY you did not design it to stay LOCKED in that resolution??? Even Nick told me last week that was not how it was designed to work. Please clarify.  |
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Post by ripcordaff on Feb 16, 2010 0:46:56 GMT -5
VIDEOPHILES?! Are you insinuating that this design decision will only impact videophiles? I will wait to talk to Lonnie about it, but this, alone and solely, will be responsible for my UMC return if it reverts to 480p for SD TV. I cannot be the only one who wishes to avoid UMC video processing on at least one input for one reason or another. My reason happens to be that that my Mac Mini outputs a display to my LCD TV that looks terrible when additional video processing is applied on top of it. Therefore, I was glad to see a pass-through mode. But if you select the mode that emo provides, god forbid you ever see a 480i SD signal because then you are forced to open the menu and set to pass through when you are done. Otherwise, as previously noted, HD sources will be stuck in the 480p chosen by the device. Now, I am NOT a videophile, and I may be the only one on this board that does so, but OCCASIONALLY I might be found torturing myself by watching a SD TV channel. As another poster noted, Set top boxes are extremely poor at upscaling so I leave it at source resolution. When I am done with this channel, I will have to rejigger the menu settings to allow me to watch a Blu-ray in 1080 as opposed to 480p. As I said. I'll wait to talk to Lonnie about it, but if a fix is not coming, its going back and the single UMC return they have had will have a sibling. By videophile, I was referring to those who searches for players that can output 480i over HDMI. Very few do and they are catered for videophiles. Sorry you took this the wrong way. Was not my intent. Now to your original issue, you rather have your display convert the 480i of the STB to (I assume) 1080p, correct? You see this as a better picture than say having the UMC on auto and having it convert the STB input to 1080p. Just trying to clarify your exact setup. Yeah, basically I have a source that requires that use pass through (its a Mac Mini functioning as an HTPC through HDMI and it does not respond well to further video processing, the text becomes unreadable). So that source requires pass through. I had to set my cable box to output only 480p+ b\c if it threw a 480i signal, the UMC would freak out and reset the GLOBAL (affecting blu-ray inputs as well) to 480. Fine, I set the STB to 480p+. The problem is that now the whole UMC is set to Pass thru. That means that a significant portion of this device--the much touted video processing (and a major reason for my upgrade from my Onkyo 805) was completely bypassed ON EVERY INPUT. That means that I have to worry about every source's ability to upscale or rely on the TV's subpar scaler. That completely removes a major advantage from the UMC's playing field and makes it function just like a switcher, no better than the Onkyo. Basically, the solution seem to all of this seems to be input specific video options. There is too much difference between an SD TV channel and Blu-ray disc for global video options to cover the gambit. Without video processing I might as well stay with the Onk for just video switching and dump the upgrade money into a sweet scaler like the Oppo BDP-83. |
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Post by emoforme on Feb 16, 2010 3:28:17 GMT -5
I had to set my cable box to output only 480p+ b\c if it threw a 480i signal, the UMC would freak out and reset the GLOBAL (affecting blu-ray inputs as well) to 480. Well, well - after reading ripcordaff's statement above about setting his cable box to 480 P, I had to examine my own DVR- (which is a Motorola DCH3416). Turns out right there on the front panel is a little "Format" button which *THANKFULLY* means it has an internal scaler that outputs 480 P on all SD content...even the menu guide. (they call it ED  - Enhanced Definition) www.motorola.com/staticfiles/Business/Products/TV%20Video%20Distribution/Set-tops/QAM%20Set-tops/All%20Digital%20QAM%20Set-tops/DCH3416/_Documents/Static%20Files/DCH3416_User_Guide_537529-001-c.pdfSo now the UMC-1 is "happy" and does not go into "480p lock down mode." I can now leave the video res set at Pass Through and switch back and forth without having to manually re-enter res settings every time I change channels, etc. For those whose cable box does *not* provide a forced 480 P output, oh well.....  Also I think as ripcordaff points out, there may be those wish to engage seperate resolution settings depending on the input signal as opposed to having everything globally set to Pass Through. I think I'll stick with a global Pass Through now and call it a day. |
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Post by wizardofoz on Feb 16, 2010 4:34:01 GMT -5
OK outside the US of A it maybe a very different situation.
I have PAL cable box and while for some (few) channels I get 1080i signals on HDMI/Component the bulk of my channels are PAL SD (576) so what is the UMC-1 going to do for me I wonder? I'm not sure if I can 'fix' the output to upscale at the cable box.
I do hope the new firmware is being tested for PAL and other non US frame sizes and rates, if not then I fear those that are getting the units outside of the US (at least 4 of us here in Singapore next month) will be in for some trying times. None the least of which will be finding the FW update process is not working for us for future fixes.
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Post by owtuv on Feb 16, 2010 8:38:57 GMT -5
The system is designed to port out 480p as a minimum resolution. Lonnie, Could you please confirm whether or not this limitation will also apply to the XMC. Best regards, Ole Willy Tuv |
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Post by robfive on Feb 16, 2010 9:34:47 GMT -5
OK outside the US of A it maybe a very different situation. I have PAL cable box and while for some (few) channels I get 1080i signals on HDMI/Component the bulk of my channels are PAL SD (576) so what is the UMC-1 going to do for me I wonder? I'm not sure if I can 'fix' the output to upscale at the cable box. I do hope the new firmware is being tested for PAL and other non US frame sizes and rates, if not then I fear those that are getting the units outside of the US (at least 4 of us here in Singapore next month) will be in for some trying times. None the least of which will be finding the FW update process is not working for us for future fixes. As long as you don't want to passthrough the 576i signals you are fine. Just set the UMC-1's video output to 1080p/1080i/720p or even 576p and you will be fine. It is only an issue if you wanted to output 576i (or 480i). |
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Post by loopinfool on Feb 16, 2010 12:02:18 GMT -5
Some people though are complaining they can't get "pure" 480i - really? with a dvdo you'd always have umc-1 set to pass through, right? That's the whole point. The umc-1 isn't true pass-through for 480i signals. You can't use the umc as an HDMI switcher and have your 480i signals go into the dvdo. - LoopinFool |
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Post by loopinfool on Feb 16, 2010 12:20:35 GMT -5
The system is designed to port out 480p as a minimum resolution. I can live with that just fine as long as: - It doesn't put up a silly nag message every time it encounters a perfectly valid 480i signal. If it was designed this way, it's not an error!
- The deinterlacer does a good job of converting 480i->480p. I suspect it does. I think someone on the board here ran a test disc through their UMC-1 and it did quite well with regards to cadence detection, jaggies, etc.
- There's no extra delay when it sees a 480i signal. The display already has a small re-sync pause, but I wouldn't want to add too much more delay to that.
- It doesn't "stick" in 480p after this happens and prevent pass-through of other resolutions (720p, 1080i, and 1080p). It sounds like you've got a firmware bug here that should be pretty easy to reproduce. Use either an Oppo DVD/Blu-Ray player that can output 480i over HDMI or a Sat/Cable box set to "Native" resolution.
I don't mean to sound so picky, but the majority of potential video sources are still 480i/576i. It should be handled painlessly. I can't just set the output res to 1080p because film "judder" looks horrible to me now that so many film sources (which is almost all non-sports HD programs) are smooth on my display. - LoopinFool |
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Post by jimsfield on Feb 16, 2010 12:23:32 GMT -5
This is aggraved by the fact there are no discrete codes for the various resolutions. It would be less of a problem for those of us owning universal remotes if there were discrete codes.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 16, 2010 12:26:42 GMT -5
To me, the image improvement from setting the UMC-1 to 1080p/60 (since this is the resolution of my display) and allowing it to upscale all incoming signals has been worth the price of the preamp. YMMV of course, but I do not want it to pass through SD resolution since it looks like crap, and the upscaled output fro the UMC is SOOO much better.
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Post by brettjb on Feb 16, 2010 12:41:58 GMT -5
I'm in a similar position as dyohn - I've got the UMC set up to scale everything through to my projector's native resolution (720p in my case - time to upgrade! ) I don't have a dedicated scaler, and the UMC is about on par with the scaler in my PJ, so it works fine for me. With that said, I understand the objections, which seem to center around this idea: When the global video resolution on the UMC is set to passthrough, if it encounters a 480i signal, it upconverts this to 480p. Not in itself the biggest flaw, but in doing so, it would seem to change the global video resolution setting to 480p. Again, this wouldn't be so bad, but it doesn't change it back once the "offensive" 480i signal had gone away. That's a bug, not a feature, and I suspect will be resolved in a future firmware update. I've not played much with this (been too busy watching HD sources!), but will check tonight if it happens with my UMC as well. I know I've found it on 480p once or twice, and scratched my head wondering how the heck I managed to screw that one up... Maybe I'm not losing my mind (or at least not as fast as I thought I was!) ;D |
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Post by emoforme on Feb 16, 2010 13:24:52 GMT -5
correct
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Post by solomente on Feb 16, 2010 19:42:36 GMT -5
I take from Lonnie's post that 480i over HDMI isn't supported period. This would include pass through. If your display handles this correctly, then just run it to the display directly. Run coax or optical for audio and be done with it. Videophiles are a very small minority. VIDEOPHILES?! Are you insinuating that this design decision will only impact videophiles? I will wait to talk to Lonnie about it, but this, alone and solely, will be responsible for my UMC return if it reverts to 480p for SD TV. I cannot be the only one who wishes to avoid UMC video processing on at least one input for one reason or another. My reason happens to be that that my Mac Mini outputs a display to my LCD TV that looks terrible when additional video processing is applied on top of it. Therefore, I was glad to see a pass-through mode. But if you select the mode that emo provides, god forbid you ever see a 480i SD signal because then you are forced to open the menu and set to pass through when you are done. Otherwise, as previously noted, HD sources will be stuck in the 480p chosen by the device. Now, I am NOT a videophile, and I may be the only one on this board that does so, but OCCASIONALLY I might be found torturing myself by watching a SD TV channel. As another poster noted, Set top boxes are extremely poor at upscaling so I leave it at source resolution. When I am done with this channel, I will have to rejigger the menu settings to allow me to watch a Blu-ray in 1080 as opposed to 480p. As I said. I'll wait to talk to Lonnie about it, but if a fix is not coming, its going back and the single UMC return they have had will have a sibling. Unfortunately, it already does have a sibling. My STB can output either the native resolution of each channel or one single resolution for everything. I could pick it to be 480p, but that means HD channels will be in 480p too. Now no one would rather watch all HD than I would, but some channels I watch are unavailable in HD in my area. Hopefully this can be addressed in the future and I may come back for a second look at the UMC-1 or maybe the XMC-1. Oh and for the record, in my opinion HDMI is a broken standard still in alpha/beta stages. Half the crap those of us on this forum complain about are because of HDMI/HDCP complications. I feel sorry for Emotiva having to try to work around that stuff. I for one will avoid HDMI like the plague for as long as I can. |
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