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Post by moodyman on Feb 17, 2010 9:24:12 GMT -5
My UMC-1 keeps telling me my ERT 8.3's are out of phase..suggesting I swap the red/black speakers connection. Clearly they are not out of phase.(checked visually..and I'm getting rock solid imaging.) Yes..I am ignoring this part of EMO-Q...but how many people are gonna swap their speakers terminals when they shouldn't and then get really lousy sound??
I think whats happening is that the EMO-Q test levels are so high that some strong room reflections are arriving at the mic out of phase from the mains and EMO-Q is interpreting that as out of phase speakers.
On top of that it wants set the crossovers on the 8.3's at 250/200 hz.
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lonnie
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Post by lonnie on Feb 17, 2010 9:51:22 GMT -5
My UMC-1 keeps telling me my ERT 8.3's are out of phase..suggesting I swap the red/black speakers connection. Clearly they are not out of phase.(checked visually..and I'm getting rock solid imaging.) Yes..I am ignoring this part of EMO-Q...but how many people are gonna swap their speakers terminals when they shouldn't and then get really lousy sound?? I think whats happening is that the EMO-Q test levels are so high that some strong room reflections are arriving at the mic out of phase from the mains and EMO-Q is interpreting that as out of phase speakers. On top of that it wants set the crossovers on the 8.3's at 250/200 hz. It's like I always tell people. It's "Your" system, set it up however it sounds best to you. Emo-Q is a tool, if you don't like what it is telling you, you don't have to use what it is reporting. Becuase that is all its doing, reporting. So forget about what all the talking heads have to say about this or that or the other thing. In the end, it's your gear, your system, set it up to be what you want it to be and enjoy. ;D |
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Post by barrynj on Feb 17, 2010 10:24:14 GMT -5
Maybe it's the "Absolute Phase" of your system being switched somewhere(?)
Switch phase on both speakers and see what happens...
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Post by mathguy on Feb 17, 2010 11:01:51 GMT -5
Lonnie,
My response to your advice is...Precisely! Hook it up, adjust as you and you alone see fit. ( By "you" I mean the owner of the system ). If the built-in tools don't work for you....don't use them. Last step...enjoy the sound.
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Post by moodyman on Feb 17, 2010 12:37:53 GMT -5
Lonnie, My response to your advice is...Precisely! Hook it up, adjust as you and you alone see fit. ( By "you" I mean the owner of the system ). If the built-in tools don't work for you....don't use them. Last step...enjoy the sound. I strongly diasgree with this statement...and Lonnie's. While I agree room correction is only a "tool" and your gonna tweak it yourself anyway..EMO-Q is a faulty tool. And I wish Lonnie would just come out and say.."Yes..there are still some bugs with EMO-Q..We are working on it". If you can't trust what the tool is telling you..what good is it?? EMO-Q sometimes incorrectly reports phase, crossover settings, and tells you you have speakers which don't exist. It correctly detected my L/R surrounds and didn't detect any surround backs...as I don't have any. Yet it applied to EQ to L Surroud and the non-existent L back surround and no EQ to my R surround. If it gets these wrong how can one have confidence that the EQ, slopes, channel levels, etc..are set right?? I will say, other than EMO-Q, I am pretty impressed with the UMC-1. I know a lot of hard work went into it and I do appreciate it. I just want to have more confidence in EMO-Q... |
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Post by moparmudder on Feb 17, 2010 13:22:53 GMT -5
Lonnie, My response to your advice is...Precisely! Hook it up, adjust as you and you alone see fit. ( By "you" I mean the owner of the system ). If the built-in tools don't work for you....don't use them. Last step...enjoy the sound. I strongly diasgree with this statement...and Lonnie's. While I agree room correction is only a "tool" and your gonna tweak it yourself anyway..EMO-Q is a faulty tool. And I wish Lonnie would just come out and say.."Yes..there are still some bugs with EMO-Q..We are working on it". If you can't trust what the tool is telling you..what good is it?? EMO-Q sometimes incorrectly reports phase, crossover settings, and tells you you have speakers which don't exist. It correctly detected my L/R surrounds and didn't detect any surround backs...as I don't have any. Yet it applied to EQ to L Surroud and the non-existent L back surround and no EQ to my R surround. If it gets these wrong how can one have confidence that the EQ, slopes, channel levels, etc..are set right?? I will say, other than EMO-Q, I am pretty impressed with the UMC-1. I know a lot of hard work went into it and I do appreciate it. I just want to have more confidence in EMO-Q... I have to agree. No I don't have a UMC but I have been quietly following all of these threads with interest because I want a XMC when they roll out. But all this talk of problems with the EMO-Q have me wondering if I will. I realize that every set up is different and can cause problems but their seems to be alot of issues. The only auto eq experience that I have is with my Yamaha V2400, in a really crappy room it had everything pretty dead nuts on, and sounded 10 times better after running. So I am holding off on ordering my XPA-5 and XPA-2 untill this plays out a little further. If we can get some confermation from members that the EQ part is actually correct and just the distance and cross over is wrong I will feel alot better. Cross over and distance is easy to do, but setting the EQ with out speacial tools is not easy. Just had a thought, can you set up distance and cross overs manually that you want and then make EMO-Q just run the EQ and levels using what you tell it for distance and cross over? That would be a good option to have. |
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Post by Flavio on Feb 17, 2010 14:20:04 GMT -5
I think the only way to make sure your speakers are in phase is to use a tool similar to this: www.phase-it.com/I discovered this when I was actively involved in IASCA competitions in the 90's. It works perfectly for home speakers as well and you can actually test the individual speaker units. |
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Post by brettjb on Feb 17, 2010 14:48:18 GMT -5
Not trying to stir the pot, just curious: has anyone with speakers that Emo-Q reports as out of phase actually tried reversing polarity and see 1) how it sounds and/or 2) used a tool like the old Avia calibration DVD, which had a nice set of test tones that played pink noise in phase for 1.5 seconds, then out of phase of 0.5 seconds.
I've used the Avia calibration disc when setting up receivers for numerous friends where I couldn't easily verify that polarity was maintained throughout the wire (i.e. wiring in the wall with who-knows how many cut/splice jobs on it), and it is really easy to hear when speakers are in and out of phase with it.
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Post by moodyman on Feb 17, 2010 15:05:32 GMT -5
Not trying to stir the pot, just curious: has anyone with speakers that Emo-Q reports as out of phase actually tried reversing polarity and see 1) how it sounds and/or 2) used a tool like the old Avia calibration DVD, which had a nice set of test tones that played pink noise in phase for 1.5 seconds, then out of phase of 0.5 seconds. Brett..If your main speakers were out phase and you listened to say some music..you would immediately notice things were awry. I listen to music all the time through my 8.3's and can tell you with absolute certainty they are not out of phase as my UMC suggests. |
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Post by moodyman on Feb 17, 2010 15:08:54 GMT -5
Just had a thought, can you set up distance and cross overs manually that you want and then make EMO-Q just run the EQ and levels using what you tell it for distance and cross over? That would be a good option to have. Yes..in a way...you can run EMO-Q..then go back and change the xovers', speaker levels, distance..etc..while leaving the EQ settings intact. In fact I just got done doing a manual speaker cal..and it sounds really good. At this point I don't have any EQ applied to any speaker. So now I'm gonna run EMO-Q again to get some EQ..then go back and redo the manual cal. |
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topcat
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Post by topcat on Feb 17, 2010 15:09:18 GMT -5
moparmudder said:
Just had a thought, can you set up distance and cross overs manually that you want and then make EMO-Q just run the EQ and levels using what you tell it for distance and cross over? That would be a good option to have.
You can run the EQ first and then go back and adjust the levels and crossovers later. That is what I have done and I get great sound.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Feb 17, 2010 15:27:46 GMT -5
Agreed - that's what I do on the Yamaha - it saves a lot of time too.
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Post by Mischief on Feb 17, 2010 16:03:29 GMT -5
I mentioned this previously. I have had equipment wired incorrectly from the factory, including B&W speakers, it is rare however.
Audyssey always shows my front speakers as out of phase because they are di-pole, which can mess with what the processor thinks it is hearing. The speakers are not out of phase and most people would be able to hear it quickly if it was. That is not always the case though, I have done calibrations on systems a year or more after they installed it and sounded reasonably good only to find out someone crossed wires when hooking up a speaker. There is no way to be sure without running a phase verification off of a calibration disc.
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Post by Mike Ronesia on Feb 17, 2010 16:10:48 GMT -5
I think I'll just write down all my distance settings from my Denon before I remove it. My speakers came with a warning not to run them below 80hz or they will be damaged so I'm always extra careful when doing any auto setups. Sounds like Emo-Q will set them higher then that though.
It's interesting though that the Denon always sets them lower then 80hz but if you look at the graph they are flat to 80 and then just drop like a rock so it gets it wrong.
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oneliterpeter
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Post by oneliterpeter on Feb 17, 2010 16:26:31 GMT -5
I think I'll just write down all my distance settings from my Denon before I remove it. My speakers came with a warning not to run them below 80hz or they will be damaged so I'm always extra careful when doing any auto setups. Sounds like Emo-Q will set them higher then that though. It's interesting though that the Denon always sets them lower then 80hz but if you look at the graph they are flat to 80 and then just drop like a rock so it gets it wrong. You could always push the envelope beyond that of the average consumer and use one of these things.   |
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Post by ghstudio on Feb 17, 2010 16:51:11 GMT -5
Based on my experience with an Audyssey multiEQ, you really can't measure speaker distance with a ruler because the room dynamics can make the "effective distance" different than the measured distance.
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Post by raylock on Feb 17, 2010 17:08:02 GMT -5
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Post by snodog on Feb 17, 2010 17:10:14 GMT -5
Yeah I thought it was as easy as measuring with a tape too. Its not, there are 11 bands of EQ for each speaker to set and after the EmoQ they come out quite differently in varying speakers. My rear surround had no adjustment at all. Just a flat line. Strange to me but whatever, if I can just find out how to set the gains right Ill leave well enough alone
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Feb 17, 2010 17:29:38 GMT -5
This seems to be especially true for subs.
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Post by flamingeye on Feb 17, 2010 17:35:23 GMT -5
My yamaha 1600s auto EQ does exactly what you all say the Emo-Q does and every re-try is different from the last with different things wrong each time so I skip the levels , distends and x-overs an just run the EQ part then go in and tweak the EQ further till it`s just right and when I had a denon AVR it did the same thing so you have to take auto EQ with a grain of salt it`s just a tool a starting point some will get you there better then others but nun will be perfect/accurate and just because you got good/adequate results with one doesn`t mean you will with the next one or the next or the next one should never trust auto EQ IMHO you should always do manual adjustments afterwards
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