UMC-1 upscale question

[Dan Laufman]

ICBM99,
From the appearance of the image, I don't think you are at 1080p 60. I think this is 1080i.

Try forcing the UMC-1 output to this resolution. You're on Auto and depending on the EDID your display reports to the UMC-1, it may tell it to go to 1080i.

I have this issue with my JVC HD100 projector, even though it is 1080p capable.

Let me know what you find out.
Thx,
Dan

[ICBM99]

I've tried it locked at 1080p/60 also, looks the same.

Deep color is "on" on all my equip. Well except on the TV which I can't find a setting for.

*Edit, Added a pic of the same scene (aprox) using the UMC set to 1080p/60.

[roadrunner]

Feb 19, 2010 20:17:10 GMT -5 ICBM99 said:

I've tried it locked at 1080p/60 also, looks the same.

Deep color is "on" on all my equip. Well except on the TV which I can't find a setting for.

Have you tried turning OFF the Deep Color option to see if it makes a difference? If your TV doesn't support that feature, it might improve the image if it isn't forced to deal with a Deep Color signal.

[ICBM99]

RR,
True, I might try that.

I don't really mind, for the most part I don't notice it, but I think until I figure it out, I'll watch my BD with the UMC on pass through.

[DYohn]

Interesting! What's your source?

[lonnie]

Feb 19, 2010 20:25:39 GMT -5 roadrunner said:

Feb 19, 2010 20:17:10 GMT -5 ICBM99 said:

I've tried it locked at 1080p/60 also, looks the same.

Deep color is "on" on all my equip. Well except on the TV which I can't find a setting for.

Have you tried turning OFF the Deep Color option to see if it makes a difference? If your TV doesn't support that feature, it might improve the image if it isn't forced to deal with a Deep Color signal.

The Deep Color (10 bit system) will only work if all units from source to monitor support it. If anyone does not, then it runs in 8 bit format. So basically the Deep color setting is for all practicle purposes Auto or off.

[ICBM99]

Ok I've been playing around with it, and when I put it on 720p it looks the same as pass through. No aliasing on the "A", but it looks exactly the same when I change between Auto, 1080p and 1080i. I wonder if the UMC is not processing true 1080p, or if somethings goofy with my TV.

I would think if it was my TV I'd have the same issue with pass through too.

[lonnie]

Feb 19, 2010 19:56:36 GMT -5 ICBM99 said:

Feb 18, 2010 9:26:47 GMT -5 DYohn said:

I agree. The processed output improves the look of even 1080p Blu Ray signals. It is a very good video processor. Noise is reduced, blacks are deeper, edges are sharper, colors are more saturated. And this is on a professionally calibrated display...

Sorry guys I don't agree. I took some pics while I was watching The Incredible Hulk Blu-Ray. You can clearly see that pass through is better.



See the aliasing, its real evident on the "A"



Unless there is some tweak/setting that I don't know about.

I think I know what is going on here. It looks to me like the source is upscaling and then the processor is scaling on top of the already scaled image. Try going into the source and set the output of the source to Auto. Then the UMC and source will talk and based on the EDID will set themselves up properly. Then set the output of the processor to 1080p.

Give it a try and let me know what you find out.

[ICBM99]

Feb 19, 2010 20:28:46 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Interesting! What's your source?

LG BD 370 Blu Ray player. Connected via HDMI

Sorry Lonnie, it is all ready set to Auto. I'll keep looking.

[bootman]

Sorry, but that pic looks bad with the UMC's VP processing on.

Can we get other 1080p examples to see if this problem is not isolated to this unit?

Screen shots just like above with the settings shown is ideal.

[jgeiger]

I think you'll be happy to know:

"Note: A 1080p24 source will get routed through the UMC‐1 as 1080p24 but is not selectable for scaling."

So, regardless of the global resolution setting, when the UMC-1 detects a 24fps source it should just pass it through, unmolested.

It's too bad it doesn't work like that. To get 24p you need to select pass through and that is the only option. Check Dan's post above where he says that. (and yes I've tested it on mine)

[owtuv]

Feb 20, 2010 1:03:55 GMT -5 jgeiger said:

It's too bad it doesn't work like that. To get 24p you need to select pass through and that is the only option. Check Dan's post above where he says that. (and yes I've tested it on mine)

I agree this is a bad design, particularly because the video setting is global.
Emotiva should take a look at how Oppo did the resolution settings with the BDP-83.

Best regards,
Ole Willy Tuv

[DYohn]

I don't know how the design could be stated more clearly...Assuming a compliant source, there are three options. It works like this:

- In any of the forced presets, it outputs that setting always no matter the input and no matter what the display requests.
- In "Auto" it negotiates the output resolution depending on what the HDMI cable is plugged into. If your display calls for 720p then you get 720p no matter what.
- If it's in "Pass Through" then it outputs the same resolution as the input regardless of what the display asks for.

In Auto you get 1080p/24 if that's what the display asks for. In pass through you get it passed through if that's what the source provides, and then the display processes it.

Here's an experiment for some of you who are in love with the notion of 1080p/24 to try: Open the owner's manual for your display device (or go to the technical support web site.) See what it says is the "Native Resolution" of the exact model system you are using. This is the likely input setting HDMI will request from the UMC-1 regardless of what display modes it says it will "support." "Support" means it can handle them and convert them into whatever is the native resolution, but via HDMI handshaking in a system that fully supports the standard, it will always request inputs at the native resolution to minimize demands on the display system's processor.

[Bruce]

++++ 1 dyohn

[Deleted]

The problem with certain setups is that the UMC and the display device are not playing nice in communicating. For instance, when I have my UMC set to auto and I am playing a blu ray disc through my OPPO 83 set to 1080p 24p output, the UMC converts it to 1080p 60hz. When I set the UMC to PASS, my Epson 8500 projector then plays 1080p 24p as designed. It has to do with the EDID information between the devices. To me, it's a hit or miss whether the UMC and other devices will work as designed regarding output resolution set to Auto.

[ratmice]

Feb 20, 2010 9:57:41 GMT -5 neekos said:

The problem with certain setups is that the UMC and the display device are not playing nice in communicating. For instance, when I have my UMC set to auto and I am playing a blu ray disc through my OPPO 83 set to 1080p 24p output, the UMC converts it to 1080p 60hz. When I set the UMC to PASS, my Epson 8500 projector then plays 1080p 24p as designed. It has to do with the EDID information between the devices. To me, it's a hit or miss whether the UMC and other devices will work as designed regarding output resolution set to Auto.

Another reason why the "death of analog" only hurts the consumer! The large content providers are so consumed with squeezing every penny out of us, that they are making it difficult to enjoy the material without jumping through major hoops.

[DYohn]

Feb 20, 2010 9:57:41 GMT -5 neekos said:

The problem with certain setups is that the UMC and the display device are not playing nice in communicating. For instance, when I have my UMC set to auto and I am playing a blu ray disc through my OPPO 83 set to 1080p 24p output, the UMC converts it to 1080p 60hz. When I set the UMC to PASS, my Epson 8500 projector then plays 1080p 24p as designed. It has to do with the EDID information between the devices. To me, it's a hit or miss whether the UMC and other devices will work as designed regarding output resolution set to Auto.

The key is not what the source is outputting, it's what the display (your projector) is requesting. My guess is it's a 1080p/60 device. It has an on-board Reon processor that is designed to handle multiple input resolution, frame rates, and even NTSC or PAL, but it converts all of these into whatever the LCD panel inside the PJ uses, and since it's a US spec machine that's most likely 60 fps. If so, then that's what HDMI will request as an input frame rate. I checked the web-available specs for the projector and it does not list native frame rate. Contact Epson technical support and see if they will tell you what it is.

[jerrym303]

I'm not sure that all of this discussion really addresses the original poster's issues.

Leave aside the UMC auto mode for the moment and focus on his attempt to force 1080P. If this would work properly for everything but 1080p-24, that would work for most people. But then Lonnie says that the UMC is double-processing based up on info from the source. Well, why can't the UMC recognize the incoming resolution instead of "asking" the source?

So, let's review our options:

Run in pass-through if we have a good scaler in our display - but wait! We get switched to 480P full-time if the UMC EVER sees a 480i signal. Nix that option.

OK, run in auto - but wait! The UMC may not play nice with our other components and will degrade the signal. Nix that idea.

OK, force the resolution to what is native to our display - but wait! UMC may try to double-scale and degrade the signal.

I would $100 extra for a unit that would act ONLY as a switch for video.

[bootman]

Feb 20, 2010 11:04:09 GMT -5 jerrym303 said:

Run in pass-through if we have a good scaler in our display - but wait! We get switched to 480P full-time if the UMC EVER sees a 480i signal. Nix that option.

This IMO is not how pass-through should work and should be corrected.

Pass through should work instead just like a switch.

[DYohn]

Feb 20, 2010 11:04:09 GMT -5 jerrym303 said:

I'm not sure that all of this discussion really addresses the original poster's issues.

Leave aside the UMC auto mode for the moment and focus on his attempt to force 1080P. If this would work properly for everything but 1080p-24, that would work for most people. But then Lonnie says that the UMC is double-processing based up on info from the source. Well, why can't the UMC recognize the incoming resolution instead of "asking" the source?

So, let's review our options:

Run in pass-through if we have a good scaler in our display - but wait! We get switched to 480P full-time if the UMC EVER sees a 480i signal. Nix that option.

OK, run in auto - but wait! The UMC may not play nice with our other components and will degrade the signal. Nix that idea.

OK, force the resolution to what is native to our display - but wait! UMC may try to double-scale and degrade the signal.

I would $100 extra for a unit that would act ONLY as a switch for video.

IMO, if it does not do what you want it to do the way you want it done, then don't buy it. Or return it. Simple.

In my application, it works well, it does exactly what I want it to do, and it does not degrade the signal. I am using no legacy video sources and I do not WANT old school broadcast 480i images to ever disgrace my eyes again. The UMC-1 scaler and processor creates a beautiful 1080p/60 image that my 52" Sony XBR4 loves. I am happy. YMMV.