Towers or Monitors for HT: opinions?

[tristan0]

So I have a question that I would like to put out there for everyone.

In your opinion are towers or monitors better for use as mains for HT??

I've been reading lately more and more people recommending monitors (specifically the 6.2s), with a good sub of course. over towers for HT use. So I am wondering what the advantages and disadvantages of each setup.

My main concern with the use of monitors is their upper bass performance. It drives me nuts when I'm watching a movie and I hear an explosion (or other type of loud noise) that comes through my mains (which are small cheap 2-way towers that are essentially monitors in terms of bass performance) and sounds really weak, then there is another sound of the same type, just slightly lower in freq. so it goes through my sub and rattles the house.

my thought is that towers with large bass drivers (i.e. the 8.3's) would be able to output higher SPLs in these upper bass notes, which would integrate with a sub better.

is this the case? or would good monitors (like the 6.2's/6.3's) perform really well in those frequency ranges, with the only real difference coming with being able to set the crossover on my mains lower?

I gave my specific example of what annoys me, and what my worries are, but overall I would just like to find out if there is any consensus on the monitors vs. towers question.

[bfisher]

If you have the room to do 3 identical speakers - that's what I'd recommend. Generally speaking, that's usually monitors (in my case - 6.3s). If you have them set up properly with your subwoofer - it's totally seamless and should sound awesome.

Also I hear more recommendations for users even with towers to set their speakers to Small so all LFE goes to sub... which would probably eliminate the issue you are hearing.

[ntrain42]

I recommend monitors with a good sub or subs regardless of HT or music use. Alot of advantages to this route with no negatives.

If you are using towers, I would figure out what the low frequency extension is on em and cross over just above the point to get full benefit out of em. That will allow your subs to be crossed over at a lower point which will reduce any localization issues and give you a better seamless blend. Your sub should always be crossed over as low as possible and this is dependant on what your mains frequency response is.

[tristan0]

Thanks for the replies.

bfisher, so with your setup you don't have any mismatch between the sub and speakers? thats good to know. my sub is crossed over at 80hz mainly because up at 100hz i was just getting a pretty much constant rumble from random sounds that just dipped low enough for the receiver to send it to the sub. So its not an issue of the receiver sending the low frequencies to the mains.


ntrain, that was the other item I was curious about. because it makes sense to cross over to the sub as low as possible, and towers would allow a much lower crossover. However my worry there is that the mismatch would be even more pronounced because the towers can't match the sheer bass output of the sub. I experienced this first hand when auditioning speakers once where they had towers set up with a sub and the crossover was set to 60hz. The speakers couldn't come anywhere near the output of the sub so there were a lot of times where an explosion would go through the mains and sound like crap! Then another explosion would go through the sub and sound awesome.

That is the main reason why I would consider getting the 8.3's because the dual 8" drivers would pack some punch in the higher bass frequencies I would think.

awesome replies so far keep them coming!

[ntrain42]

Feb 20, 2010 15:52:02 GMT -5 tristan0 said:

Thanks for the replies.




ntrain, that was the other item I was curious about. because it makes sense to cross over to the sub as low as possible, and towers would allow a much lower crossover. However my worry there is that the mismatch would be even more pronounced because the towers can't match the sheer bass output of the sub. I experienced this first hand when auditioning speakers once where they had towers set up with a sub and the crossover was set to 60hz. The speakers couldn't come anywhere near the output of the sub so there were a lot of times where an explosion would go through the mains and sound like crap! Then another explosion would go through the sub and sound awesome.

That is the main reason why I would consider getting the 8.3's because the dual 8" drivers would pack some punch in the higher bass frequencies I would think.

awesome replies so far keep them coming!

Your main towers aren't supposed to match the sheer bass output of your sub, or play the lowest frequencies of the sub. WHat you need to do is find out the frequency response of the main speakers. So if its say 60hz-20khz +/- 3db(which is common), then you would probably want to cross em over a few hz higher(say 70-80hz in this case)of their natural frequency response to keep the low end clean sounding on them. Then you would say do a low pass xover to the sub of around say 60-70hz(go as low as possible without any frequency dropout between the sub and mains using some type of relatively accurate meter and pink noise test tone)and then LEVEL match the sub to the main speakers(All decent AVR's and processors allow you to level match each channel individually) to blend the 2 in together seamlessly. Even if your sub can play louder than your mains at full output, it doesnt matter becuase the gain knob on the back is there to level the frequency amplitude response out with your other speakers. Its not per se a "volume control" in the traditional sense. Its a speaker/input signal matching tool. And it should be set as low as possible to properly match up with your main speakers output.

Good rule of thumb is if you can tell that bass sounds are coming from your sub and localize it with your ears, then its gain control is probably set to high(and the xover could be set too high as well or a combination of the both).

[roadrunner]

From your description of the sub sounding much louder on material just slight lower in frequency than your mains makes me wonder about the placement and the gain setting of your sub. You shouldn't be noticing such a drastic difference. Do you have the sub in a corner? Have you calibrated the sound level of all your speakers?

Basically, using good monitors with a good sub gives you greater flexibility in setting up your speakers for optimal performance. The kicker here is that you really need to be careful to ensure your choice of monitors and sub woofer will "blend" together well. With the quality of today's drivers, this is much easier than it used to be, but don't blindly just accept that the monitor/sub solution will always we best.

Depending of the room and your taste in music/cinema the Tower option may be the better solution. For HT, I believe you need a good sub woofer no matter your choice in monitor or Tower. The Emotiva ERT-8.3 is a very well balanced design and has exceptional mid to upper bass response. I can easily see where it would be my choice for FR/FL service in building a HT system. It has many advantages. I can also see where I would choose three ERM-6.3 speakers over using two 8.3s with a 6.3 Center Channel. The same sub woofer could be used with either choice. You would simply modify the xcross levels to obtain appropriate blending. Once of the nicest sounding music systems I have heard was with the 8.3s for FR/FL -- the music being used during the demo was heavily oriented toward percussion instruments, which just happens to be one of the 8.3's strengths in reproducing that portion of the frequency spectrum.

There are excellent examples for employing both solutions for your HT. Evaluate your room, your listening habits, and the genre of your music collection; then choose the solution that will provide you with the best match with the fewest compromises.

PS -- If you're married, don't forget to include the WAF in determining which way to go. Assuming you want to nurture your relationship with her/him. ;D ;D ;D

[bigred7078]

Feb 20, 2010 12:55:45 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

I recommend monitors with a good sub or subs regardless of HT or music use. Alot of advantages to this route with no negatives.

Well I would say it depends on the manufacturer. Some companies towers have certain advantages over their bookselfs. Some lines use the bookshelf as their entry level model of the line and give the towers all the features. Example being the B&W 800 series (no, not the latest 800 Diamond series of 2010). The 805S used their standard tweeter while you need to go to their 803D to at least get the Diamond tweeter and dedicated FST midrange driver.

Other companies utilize the SAME drivers throughout the line and in that case I would totally agree with ntrain.

[Deleted]

I think once you figure in a nice set of stands, if you looking in the same line of speakers, it boils down to what you like better. I prefer towers in my HT but it's a pretty decent size and I have ample room for them. I do also listen to 2 ch music and in that case "most" monitors won't have the full sound that a tower will have in 2 ch. If it's only for HT, then having big towers and a big sub doesn't make a whole lot of sense since the performance benefit of the towers will not be used to the full potential.

[Deleted]

Feb 20, 2010 17:42:37 GMT -5 roadrunner said:

PS -- If you're married, don't forget to include the WAF in determining which way to go. Assuming you want to nurture your relationship with her/him. ;D ;D ;D

Thank god you added that last sentence. I purposely bought in the mid 70's two Altec Lansing 846's, home Voice of the Theater system. With just a slight flick of the volume knob I could instantly drown out any of my ex wife's utterances.

To me the question is not bookshelf monitor/sub versus tower but bookshelf/sub versus tower/sub. Many quality towers might be suitable for most music but not for HT in the lower bass.

If budget is no problem then an excellent tower like the 8.3 is great. Just don't make the mistake of adding a mediocre sub (one of the $250-$500 boom subs. They may sound impressive but usually what the listener is hearing is the harmonic overtone of the fundamental. The 20-25Hz tone may be way down in output but many listeners are fooled by the 40-50Hz second harmonic that seems to slam you in the chest. S&V Magazine recently tested some subs and found the $2800 JL Audio f112 put out an extremely loud 118dB's at 63Hz but only 95dB's at 22.5Hz and was above 10% distortion below that! That might sound impressive on first listen but lacks the low bass extension and low distortion required for the best HT performance. Most small enclosure design subs suffer from the same problem as well as most of the below $500 conventional subs. In contrast, the large box SVS PB-12 Plus hit 115dB's at 20Hz! Now that is low bass performance and it had similar excellent output thru 80Hz. Look for a sub that achieves a 105-110dB or higher output from 20-80Hz, less that 10% distortion, for excellent performance. 10% distortion might sound high at first until you realize that for subs this is the upper level of acceptable distortion for test measurements such as from S&V Magazine.

I am partial to bookshelf/sub for budget reasons but only if the bookshelf is of very high quality. The low end of the bookshelf must be able to handle very high power levels. That is one reason I love the Emo bookshelf speakers. They keep up with a quality sub in output levels and should produce a nice blend versus what Tristan is experiencing. ;D

[Porscheguy]

Feb 21, 2010 4:55:48 GMT -5 @chuckienut said:

Feb 20, 2010 17:42:37 GMT -5 roadrunner said:

PS -- If you're married, don't forget to include the WAF in determining which way to go. Assuming you want to nurture your relationship with her/him. ;D ;D ;D

Thank god you added that last sentence. I purposely bought in the mid 70's two Altec Lansing 846's, home Voice of the Theater system. With just a slight flick of the volume knob I could instantly drown out any of my ex wife's utterances.

To me the question is not bookshelf monitor/sub versus tower but bookshelf/sub versus tower/sub. Many quality towers might be suitable for most music but not for HT in the lower bass.

If budget is no problem then an excellent tower like the 8.3 is great. Just don't make the mistake of adding a mediocre sub (one of the $250-$500 boom subs. They may sound impressive but usually what the listener is hearing is the harmonic overtone of the fundamental. The 20-25Hz tone may be way down in output but many listeners are fooled by the 40-50Hz second harmonic that seems to slam you in the chest. S&V Magazine recently tested some subs and found the $2800 JL Audio f112 put out an extremely loud 118dB's at 63Hz but only 95dB's at 22.5Hz and was above 10% distortion below that! That might sound impressive on first listen but lacks the low bass extension and low distortion required for the best HT performance. Most small enclosure design subs suffer from the same problem as well as most of the below $500 conventional subs. In contrast, the large box SVS PB-12 Plus hit 115dB's at 20Hz! Now that is low bass performance and it had similar excellent output thru 80Hz. Look for a sub that achieves a 105-110dB or higher output from 20-80Hz, less that 10% distortion, for excellent performance. 10% distortion might sound high at first until you realize that for subs this is the upper level of acceptable distortion for test measurements such as from S&V Magazine.

I am partial to bookshelf/sub for budget reasons but only if the bookshelf is of very high quality. The low end of the bookshelf must be able to handle very high power levels. That is one reason I love the Emo bookshelf speakers. They keep up with a quality sub in output levels and should produce a nice blend versus what Tristan is experiencing. ;D

Well said, and I agree about the subs especially for home theater. I bought that little Impact Mini for zone 2 (music) and while it's "OK", it was only $195.00 so I had to try it.

It will stay in Zone 2 for now 'cause I'm broke But it just might end up doing duty as the sub for my computer system.

I think towers are fine for HT. And while you really do need to have a sub, my Snells play down to 30hz which is pretty good. There are a lot of movies without sound tracks or much LFE so it isn't always needed....

Watched Grand Torino last night, no need for sub for that movie (really) if you have towers that go low..... It was on, but it didn't do a whole lot, not a lot on info there....

[Deleted]

Feb 21, 2010 8:07:10 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

There are a lot of movies without sound tracks or much LFE so it isn't always needed....

Good point. In the movies that my wife and I watch late at night there is not much moaning below 80Hz or so. So it makes it easy for us since we don't have to cross over.

This is a family forum so I can't explain what "LFE" stands for in those movie soundtracks.

[Porscheguy]

Feb 21, 2010 12:06:31 GMT -5 @chuckienut said:

Feb 21, 2010 8:07:10 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

There are a lot of movies without sound tracks or much LFE so it isn't always needed....

Good point. In the movies that my wife and I watch late at night there is not much moaning below 80Hz or so. So it makes it easy for us since we don't have to cross over.

This is a family forum so I can't explain what "LFE" stands for in those movie soundtracks.

Lotsa fried eggplant?

[ntrain42]

Feb 20, 2010 17:47:20 GMT -5 bigred7078 said:

Feb 20, 2010 12:55:45 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

I recommend monitors with a good sub or subs regardless of HT or music use. Alot of advantages to this route with no negatives.

Well I would say it depends on the manufacturer. Some companies towers have certain advantages over their bookselfs. Some lines use the bookshelf as their entry level model of the line and give the towers all the features. Example being the B&W 800 series (no, not the latest 800 Diamond series of 2010). The 805S used their standard tweeter while you need to go to their 803D to at least get the Diamond tweeter and dedicated FST midrange driver.

Other companies utilize the SAME drivers throughout the line and in that case I would totally agree with ntrain.

Sure, I can agree with that concerning some mfg's no doubt. But I think using B&W may have been a poor example(although you did get the important point across)because there are ALOT of people on the Agon who actually prefer the 805S's midrange and treble over the upper end floor towers even with the newer technology drivers(which really dont add anything). Those new diamond tweeters if anything run a bit forward and hot, I myself would not hesitate in a moment to take a pair of 805S's and an ASW855 over a set of 800 or 801D's. Especially at the price. Those 805S's have incredible imaging abilities that come real close to the Kef XQ and reference monitor offerings. If I can find a pair of 805S mint in the $1500 range Ill be picking up a pair to put in my stable.

[Deleted]

Feb 21, 2010 12:32:29 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

Feb 21, 2010 12:06:31 GMT -5 @chuckienut said:

This is a family forum so I can't explain what "LFE" stands for in those movie soundtracks.

Lotsa fried eggplant?

Close but no cigar.

[tristan0]

OK, so I know this is a sin for a budding audiophile, but I haven't calibrated my system with an SPL meter.....I know, I know.....

To answer your questions, yes unfortunately my sub is in a corner. The original owner of my house pre-wired the basement for 5.1 and put the sub cable in the corner. Theoretically I could move it, but it would mean running more coax and an extension cord for power. There is also that whole WAF factor to include, our basement is small so there aren't a whole lot of places to put it.

The reason I am so curious about the monitor/tower issue is that, like most people, money is a factor. While I would overall prefer towers (mainly because I think they look way cooler than monitors on stands), if I can get better performance out of monitors then I would absolutely go that route because monitors are typically so much cheaper. On the flip side, I really don't want to spend even the money required for monitors, be disappointed in them and have to shell out more money for towers! I know, I know, all ID speaker sellers have money back guarantees, but there's the money thing too......so I was hoping to buy used if possible which is why I want to get it right the first time.

As for my sub, I have an Elemental Designs A2-300. by no means the best sub out there, but also a very good performer for the money. Overall I am very happy with it, and I don't plan to upgrade my sub with the rest of my speakers.

As far as monitors go, I would likely get either used ERM-1 or 6.2's (6.3's too if I could find them). For towers, my options would open up a bit more, but it depends alot on whats available used.

[ntrain42]

TO keep it simple, a set of 8.3's is $1600 vs. a set of 6.2's which is $600. Leaves a $1000 left over for a sub or pair of subs(preferred). WIth the $1k saved you could get a pair of EMotiva 12" subs with the money saved. A pair of 6.2's and a pair of 12" EMotiva subs is a MUCH BETTER option without question if you decided to go all EMotiva gear..................

[bigred7078]

Feb 22, 2010 13:22:07 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

TO keep it simple, a set of 8.3's is $1600 vs. a set of 6.2's which is $600. Leaves a $1000 left over for a sub or pair of subs(preferred). WIth the $1k saved you could get a pair of EMotiva 12" subs with the money saved. A pair of 6.2's and a pair of 12" EMotiva subs is a MUCH BETTER option without question if you decided to go all EMotiva gear..................

That is actually a great way to put it. I definately agree.

BTW, what mod did you do to your XQ20's? They are nice speakers.

[ntrain42]

Feb 22, 2010 13:26:56 GMT -5 bigred7078 said:

Feb 22, 2010 13:22:07 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

TO keep it simple, a set of 8.3's is $1600 vs. a set of 6.2's which is $600. Leaves a $1000 left over for a sub or pair of subs(preferred). WIth the $1k saved you could get a pair of EMotiva 12" subs with the money saved. A pair of 6.2's and a pair of 12" EMotiva subs is a MUCH BETTER option without question if you decided to go all EMotiva gear..................

That is actually a great way to put it. I definately agree.

BTW, what mod did you do to your XQ20's? They are nice speakers.

Replaced the xcover board with a custom one featureing matched parts from Sonicap and Mills....plus some higher end posts and buss bars...Just did a trade too.....my 906, for a set of XQ10's. I consider the 10's and 20's the best monitors available for under $2k and $1k respectively. Midrange and treble is unequaled for the price, even stock, with Usher 718's a close 2nd.

[monkumonku]

Feb 22, 2010 13:22:07 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

TO keep it simple, a set of 8.3's is $1600 vs. a set of 6.2's which is $600. Leaves a $1000 left over for a sub or pair of subs(preferred). WIth the $1k saved you could get a pair of EMotiva 12" subs with the money saved. A pair of 6.2's and a pair of 12" EMotiva subs is a MUCH BETTER option without question if you decided to go all EMotiva gear..................

+1. The 6.2's are darn good speakers but they need a sub. You could get a really nice sub or pair of subs for the $1,000 difference, just like you said. Or spend $834 on a sub and $166 on the Skiing Ninja crossover upgrade.

[jmilton]

Feb 22, 2010 13:35:16 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Feb 22, 2010 13:26:56 GMT -5 bigred7078 said:

That is actually a great way to put it. I definately agree.

BTW, what mod did you do to your XQ20's? They are nice speakers.

Replaced the xcover board with a custom one featureing matched parts from Sonicap and Mills....plus some higher end posts and buss bars...Just did a trade too.....my 906, for a set of XQ10's. I consider the 10's and 20's the best monitors available for under $2k and $1k respectively. Midrange and treble is unequaled for the price, even stock, with Usher 718's a close 2nd.

XQ-10s were "bookshelf speaker of the year" from SECRETS 2009 annual product review. The 10s are indeed remarkable, especially their ability to cast a wide, 3D soundstage. Gorgeous wood, too.