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Post by ngmitter on Mar 25, 2011 9:58:23 GMT -5
Ok, will do in a few... I just calibrated everything like I use to do and now it slams... The auto Emo-Q thing seems like it's a nice idea but sure as hell doesn't work properly! I have the same digital clipping(distortion) problem with EmoQ. I am using: Popcorn C-200 -> HDMI -> UMC-1 (firmware 7.04)-> QSC RMX 850. I do not use Dolby Volume. I have NO sound distortion in Direct mode, but I have some distortion in Stereo mode on some woman vocals regardless of volume. I think that EmoQ is done in digital domain and it has the following problem: when it boosts the signal which already has the maximum value (for example womans vocal on CD) then it goes higher than maximum available digital value, that lead to digital clipping(distortion). Mainly PCM and MultiPCM sources are affected, because in Dolby and DTS formats high digital values are used only for explosions and other loud effects. I see following temporary solutions which we can use to get rid of this distortion: 1. Do not use boosting in EmoQ: after auto EQ calibration you should find the maximum EQ boost level within all speakers and decrease each EQ band for each speaker on this value. Disadvantage: in Direct mode music will play louder as in Stereo mode, but there will be no distortion. 2. Decrease the input level of signal: In my case I've decreased the volume on Popcorn C-200 from 0 to -2. Disadvantages: your output device should have the volume control. Does anybody has some other ideas how to solve this problem? I've also tried to decrease the incoming signal by changing the 'HDMI Input Level' in UMC-1 but that did not help: that means equalization is done before input level attenuation I've tried to decrease the speaker level but that did not solve the problem as well. MP, I noticed the exact same issue with my setup. Last night I was listening to the new Grace Potter & The Nocturnals CD. I initially had my UMC-1 on Stereo mode. I first listened to the MP3 and heard some crackle. I then listened to the FLAC file and heard the same crackle. I figured this couldn't be right. So, I changed to direct mode and noticed the crackling had pretty much completely stopped. As a further test, I turned of EmoQ on my HTPC input and sure enough the crackling also went away. Adjusting the crossovers had no effect on the audible distortion I was hearing. Based on my tests, I am definitely thinking that it is an issue with boosting certain frequencies. I checked my left and right fronts in EmoQ and saw that there were some mid-range frequencies boosted, but only by 3 dB. I would agree that a better approach would be to decrease all levels so that the max value is 0 dB.
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Post by jason1976 on Mar 25, 2011 15:47:28 GMT -5
Nemesis,
Yep I agree that decreasing the source volume seems to help. Unfortunately on my HTPC, I have to turn the volume down about 30% to fully get rid of the issue. Since the HTPC volume control is digital, I'm throwing out packets of info doing this.
Ngmitter,
Yep same here. I have an output meter that I can view on my HTPC audio output. When the meter maxes out, I hear the pops and distortion.
The unfortunate part about the situation is this is "Preamp 101." Every digital preamp made in the last 20 years has adjustments for this either in the service mode or user menu. Emotiva has a tendancy to dial these product in too hot. The same looks to have happened with the XDA volume control.
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Post by marrypoppins on May 28, 2011 2:48:13 GMT -5
FW 7.04.00.07: Digital distortion is still there. I've installed new firmware, loaded default settings and made some tests. As result I've attached the RTA file for 1kHz (-5dbFs) input signal which has been digitally distorted when EmoQ 1kHz set to +5db. Output signal has been received directly from UMC1 outputs: (PC-(HDMI)->UMC1-(Analog Output)->Emu0404-(USB)->PC) , so that is not an amplifier or loudspeakers problem. So no EQ boosting still could be used. P.S. I've bought Behringer DEQ2496 to fill that EQ gap and there is a special option: 'EQ gain offset' which does exactly what it is supposed to be done with incoming signal before EQ boosting. Attachments:
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Post by jason1976 on May 28, 2011 14:50:10 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this. This should be a very simple issue to correct. It seems like the internal gains are off.
I gave up trying to use EmoQ because of the very audible distortion on dynamic tracks.
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Post by Marvin on May 28, 2011 17:28:25 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this. This should be a very simple issue to correct. It seems like the internal gains are off. I gave up trying to use EmoQ because of the very audible distortion on dynamic tracks. Jason, do you mean "simple to correct" via firmware? IOW, for EMO to correct? I sure would love to see this problem solved, and hope Lonnie & Co. are working on this. Marvin
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Post by marrypoppins on May 29, 2011 6:27:26 GMT -5
I am not sure that EMO works on that . I've written e-mail to support in the end of March and got a reply from Eric Tchonfene: "I am sorry to inform you that we have not been able to run your tests.You will hear from us as soon as we have some results.Thank you for your patience." and a reply from Lonnie: "I appreciate your enthusiasm in what you do, but honestly I do not understand the purpose of your test. Before I dedicate the time, resources, and funds to pull my engineers off of their current projects, I would like to better understand your intentions and purpose. Can you explain how this would be relevant in any real world application of a home theatre?" So it looks like that I was alone who have mentioned this problem to support, or EMO even not considered this issue as a bug.
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Post by jason1976 on May 29, 2011 7:40:32 GMT -5
Hi Marvin yes I just meant that the problem should be easily adjusted via firmware.
That's too bad they won't look into this. I'm not sure how Lonnie could say there is no real world application. When you can't boost 3 dbs in a frequency range without getting distortion, I would say that the feature isn't working as intended.
I deleted one of my favorite albums because I thought the distortion was a bad recording. Turns out it was just too dynamic for the Emoq settings that I was using at the time.
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Post by Marvin on May 29, 2011 22:43:23 GMT -5
I too have found the distortion to be very disappointing. It dampens the pleasure of enjoying all of my music library, and also prevents full use of the functions designed into the UMC-1.
I really don't know what the cause is. I can listen to very sweet Christmas music at very low volume levels and still have distortion on the same song every time. I would not describe those selections as highly dynamic--no sudden transients or anything remarkably challenging for a quality system. Yet the distortion is there with the UMC-1, but never there with my previous system. Also, when the UMC-1 is removed from the system and the same selections played directly from Squeezebox to XPA-5, the sound is clean and clear. The fault is definitely in the UMC-1.
I have been very busy lately, but intend to update my FW when I get a chance and see how everything sounds with out EMO-Q. If it is clean, then I may have to settle for that, but as I said, that compromises the design of the UMC-1, and I am surprised if EMO is willing to accept such a compromise. OTOH, if we are doing something wrong, at least tell us what it is so we can avoid the problem.
Marvin
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Post by Nemesis.ie on May 30, 2011 3:30:32 GMT -5
Marvin, is this only if you have Emo-Q enabled? Your UMC-1 should certainly not be adding audible distortion if Emo-Q is disabled (and of course it shouldn't with it enabled either).
It would definitely be good to reflash/update FW, including the DSP code to be sure it's not a "bad" firmware install.
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Post by Marvin on May 30, 2011 9:37:39 GMT -5
Marvin, is this only if you have Emo-Q enabled? Your UMC-1 should certainly not be adding audible distortion if Emo-Q is disabled (and of course it shouldn't with it enabled either). It would definitely be good to reflash/update FW, including the DSP code to be sure it's not a "bad" firmware install. I have kept EMO-Q on to help compensate for room nodes. I also like to use dolby volume because I often listen at low volume levels. My comment about leaving EMO-Q off is based on an earlier poster's comment that everything was clean until they ran EMO-Q. I will do with out EMO-Q if I must, but then that feature of the UMC-1 is useless. I will wait til I have some time to update the FW and then listen before running EMO-Q or adding DV. If it is clean on known distorted songs after the FW flash but before running EMO-Q, then I can try EMO-Q and listen again. If that brings the distortion back, then it seems that the EMO-Q process has some kind of fault. We will see. BTW, what is the best instruction (most current / complete) for the firmware upgrade process? (For a novice--I have not done a FW install yet.) Is the instruction link on the UMC-1 page complete, or is there a better link? Thanks, Marvin
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Post by Nemesis.ie on May 30, 2011 9:46:52 GMT -5
I think running Emo-Q is not a problem (and it's good for setting the DV base volume). It's when you have DV enabled or a DV offset that isn't quite right that problems may be found.
Check out any files in the archive and also the Emonatics site for helo - also look at getting the USBxPress 3.3 or later (3.5 seems to be out) driver and you may have to install that manually.
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Post by marrypoppins on Dec 3, 2011 7:46:28 GMT -5
I've upgraded to FW 7.4.19: EmoQ problem still there. I've check this just by changing EmoQ slider for 128Hz while playing the song: everything ok till the values less than 0. While boosting I hear distortion again.
So I am giving up and sailing my UMC1 (together with Behringer DEQ2496, EMU 0404 and Behringer ECM 8000). I am going to buy Onkyo 5508 for probably the same price or a little bit more in order to get the same set of pre/pro features, which are declared for UMC1 but still not correctly implemented.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Dec 3, 2011 10:59:27 GMT -5
I can confirm I heard some distortion with Emo-Q enabled with boost too.
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Post by roadrunner on Dec 3, 2011 12:59:21 GMT -5
Marvin,
I would view all the videos that Emotiva has produced on the UMC-1. They cover installing the FW updates and understanding/using the EmoQ feature. There is a great deal of information in those videos that will make using the UMC-1 more productive. One of the things that get abused is that when EQing your speakers many users attempt to fix the room problem by boosting frequencies. Often this causes distortion because you are driving the amplifier beyond it ability to cleanly provide the power needed. It is usually better to cut the surrounding frequenciy ranges than to boost.
Lonnie spends time explaining how EmoQ works and how to interpret what it is really telling you in one of the videos. I can't stress strongly enough how valuable it is to you to view these video aids. It will help you maximize your enjoyment of the UMC-1. It has powerful tools if you know how to use them.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Dec 3, 2011 13:03:37 GMT -5
RR: Marvin's post is from back in MAY.
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Post by marrypoppins on Dec 4, 2011 4:41:00 GMT -5
One of the things that get abused is that when EQing your speakers many users attempt to fix the room problem by boosting frequencies. Often this causes distortion because you are driving the amplifier beyond it ability to cleanly provide the power needed. It is usually better to cut the surrounding frequenciy ranges than to boost. Thats not correct for UMC1. See my post emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=preamps&thread=16228&post=286015. I got distorted signal directly on UMC1 output (before amplifier).
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Dec 4, 2011 8:37:58 GMT -5
Likewise if you boost the same frequencies with an external EQ and do not get the distortion it is not an amp clipping issue.
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Post by jason1976 on Dec 4, 2011 13:45:01 GMT -5
I still have the issue too. I reloaded the new firmware and still have the same problem.
Everytime the dynamic range is improved in the firmware it gets worse. I think the pops others are getting with truhd soundtracks are linked to a similar underlying issue.
I'm pretty close to looking elsewhere too. Everything works fine without the eq, but it would be nice to be able to use it.
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Post by nickwin on Dec 4, 2011 15:18:11 GMT -5
Is anyone else getting distortion with analog sources? I am running the FW before newest release ( v7 i think?) and I am getting popping crackling sounds in dynamic parts of 2ch music. I only really notice it with two channel sources (and only certain times, although as others have said, it seems to vary depending on the track, some are worse than others), I thought it only effected digital inputs, but last night while I was listening to a CD through my ERC-1's Toslink I noticed the distortion, I tried turning off EmoQ completely, distortion is still there, I switched over to the ERC-1s analog output in direct mode, and surprisingly it was still there. Has anyone else had this issue with there UMC-1, or could this be a more isolated issue with my unit?
Edit: I got the same distortion through my blu-ray player via HDMI with 2ch sources, so its not the ERC-1.
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Post by jason1976 on Dec 4, 2011 16:39:28 GMT -5
Are you using the 7.1 input? I think the regular RCA inputs go through ad conversion for bass management and other processing.
With the ad conversion it could still clip the signal if it is strong enough
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