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Post by rtg97229 on Feb 26, 2013 12:19:16 GMT -5
I understand why people want room correction software but why not just get a miniDSP or OpenDCR? They are cheap and don't need to be replaced every time you get a new preamp or surround processor. Maybe I am missing something.
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Post by avaddikt on Feb 26, 2013 12:26:19 GMT -5
UMR has been to my house on 2 visits and he does charge much less after a few visits.He also does a great job on Display units as he did with my Pioneer Plasma 3 years ago.I will have him back in Summer to recheck the settings on the Plasma and redo my Audio settings as I have new speakers,Oppo-103 and new Pre Pro for him to calibrate and also 2 new Subs.The reason I love how Jeff calibrates is he does not rush or take shortcuts and explains ALL the setings he makes and when he is finished ALL settings for AUDIO and VIDEO is printed in a booklet so you can have for reference if your settings are lost for any reason. A class act all around!
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umr
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Post by umr on Feb 26, 2013 12:34:37 GMT -5
I understand why people want room correction software but why not just get a miniDSP or OpenDCR? They are cheap and don't need to be replaced every time you get a new preamp or surround processor. Maybe I am missing something. The more levels of A/D and D/A conversion you add the more likely it is you will introduce more audio problems. Problems encountered could include increased distortion, added noise and gain limitations. I see this approach taken in many high end systems using QSC processors. I never find it to be an approach I would take in my own theater. I prefer a parsimonious approach to audio which means do as little as necessary to correct problems or alter the original signal. Keeping all of the correction in a single device that is already processing the data in the digital domain at a high bit depth makes more sense to me than converting it back and forth several times between analog and digital and counting on no extra errors to be introduced. I prefer any additional external correction to be done analog if possible. A similar analogy are the external video processors. I generally find them to be a negative. You are much better off buying a display that will do a good job than adding an external device to patch it and these do not include additional A/D and D/A conversions. I personally purchase audio electronics that are very good and switch them very infrequently. I think that is a better plan than adding many extra devices that could add more problems and will add more complexity to your gear. Also assuming that the channel output gain will stay consistent preamp to preamp is not what I find. This fact will require that you will need to readjust the system for a new preamp even if you use these devices.
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Post by rtg97229 on Feb 26, 2013 13:24:05 GMT -5
I understand why people want room correction software but why not just get a miniDSP or OpenDCR? They are cheap and don't need to be replaced every time you get a new preamp or surround processor. Maybe I am missing something. The more levels of A/D and D/A conversion you add the more likely it is you will introduce more audio problems. Problems encountered could include increased distortion, added noise and gain limitations. I see this approach taken in many high end systems using QSC processors. I never find it to be an approach I would take in my own theater. I prefer a parsimonious approach to audio which means do as little as necessary to correct problems or alter the original signal. Keeping all of the correction in a single device that is already processing the data in the digital domain at a high bit depth makes more sense to me than converting it back and forth several times between analog and digital and counting on no extra errors to be introduced. I prefer any additional external correction to be done analog if possible. A similar analogy are the external video processors. I generally find them to be a negative. You are much better off buying a display that will do a good job than adding an external device to patch it and these do not include additional A/D and D/A conversions. I personally purchase audio electronics that are very good and switch them very infrequently. I think that is a better plan than adding many extra devices that could add more problems and will add more complexity to your gear. Also assuming that the channel output gain will stay consistent preamp to preamp is not what I find. This fact will require that you will need to readjust the system for a new preamp even if you use these devices. That seems like a good and fair explanation. You can do digital in and out on a miniDSP though. It does still add a level on complexity and the rest of your explanation still applies. Did you by any chance go to the University of Missouri-Rolla?
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umr
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Post by umr on Feb 26, 2013 13:30:05 GMT -5
The more levels of A/D and D/A conversion you add the more likely it is you will introduce more audio problems. Problems encountered could include increased distortion, added noise and gain limitations. I see this approach taken in many high end systems using QSC processors. I never find it to be an approach I would take in my own theater. I prefer a parsimonious approach to audio which means do as little as necessary to correct problems or alter the original signal. Keeping all of the correction in a single device that is already processing the data in the digital domain at a high bit depth makes more sense to me than converting it back and forth several times between analog and digital and counting on no extra errors to be introduced. I prefer any additional external correction to be done analog if possible. A similar analogy are the external video processors. I generally find them to be a negative. You are much better off buying a display that will do a good job than adding an external device to patch it and these do not include additional A/D and D/A conversions. I personally purchase audio electronics that are very good and switch them very infrequently. I think that is a better plan than adding many extra devices that could add more problems and will add more complexity to your gear. Also assuming that the channel output gain will stay consistent preamp to preamp is not what I find. This fact will require that you will need to readjust the system for a new preamp even if you use these devices. That seems like a good and fair explanation. You can do digital in and out on a miniDSP though. It does still add a level on complexity and the rest of your explanation still applies. Did you by any chance go to the University of Missouri-Rolla? I did. I practiced engineering for many years before retiring and doing this. How would you get the LPCM data into this from a preamp?
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Post by rtg97229 on Feb 26, 2013 13:43:32 GMT -5
I may be miss understanding but I was thinking the digital out of the XMC-1 could be used in this way. That said I have a lot to learn and wont be surprised when I find out that I am wrong.
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umr
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Post by umr on Feb 26, 2013 13:52:26 GMT -5
I may be miss understanding but I was thinking the digital out of the XMC-1 could be used in this way. That said I have a lot to learn and wont be surprised when I find out that I am wrong. That will not work properly. Just use the adjustments in the XMC-1 and call it a day. No need to add more electronic audio tweaking on top of that. That extra money could be more effectively used other places in your theater.
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Post by rtg97229 on Feb 26, 2013 14:16:27 GMT -5
Fair enough, I suspect the nanoDIGI has some way of being used with a pre/pro but it seems like it may not be worth it. For me the idea was along the same line as going from AVR to preamp + amps sounded better so why not keep separating? The answer seems to be that added complexity more often hurts not helps SQ.
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umr
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Post by umr on Feb 26, 2013 15:09:52 GMT -5
Fair enough, I suspect the nanoDIGI has some way of being used with a pre/pro but it seems like it may not be worth it. For me the idea was along the same line as going from AVR to preamp + amps sounded better so why not keep separating? The answer seems to be that added complexity more often hurts not helps SQ. The problem you would have is that these are SPDIF/Toslink devices and you have HDMI sound mixed with video. In essence you would need to build a XMC-1 to use these along with adding DAC's. The XMC-1 can do all of this in one box replacing the need for this type of unit. I am not sure your premise of an AVR sounding worse than a preamp+amp is valid either. I have owned many models of both and cannot say one path is always superior to the other. I also find some preamps are poor while some receivers are great. You just need to remember that these are systems. Isolating a single component as the be all end all to sound quality is a mistake. Any element can be additive or negative. I do not find that AVR's in general are a massive flaw. It all depends on the system and where the deficiencies are in that system. A given system may benefit more from incremental dollars being spent on amplification while another may benefit from more acoustic treatment for 1kHz and higher absorption. It all must be taken into consideration. The question that must be answered is what is your budget and how will it best be spent in your situation to yield the best sound for you. That will vary by budget, room size and your particular situation. One solution be it a preamp + amp or another will not always yield the best result for a given budget and room.
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Post by rtg97229 on Feb 26, 2013 16:08:50 GMT -5
It seems like the UMC-200 breaks the back of the budget reasons for an AVR but I have not tried every AVR to check. Using my old class A/B amps still sounds better than my Denon 2312 in my room with my speakers. Even without driving a difficult load (5 ESL speakers in my case) I have my doubts that an AVR can beat the performance to value ratio of a UMC-200 + UPA, XPA, or XPR amps. In my experience AVRs offer many features like internet radio and streaming music that are of no use to me. Others may have a much different list of expectations.
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umr
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Post by umr on Feb 26, 2013 16:18:18 GMT -5
It seems like the UMC-200 breaks the back of the budget reasons for an AVR but I have not tried every AVR to check. Using my old class A/B amps still sounds better than my Denon 2312 in my room with my speakers. Even without driving a difficult load (5 ESL speakers in my case) I have my doubts that an AVR can beat the performance to value ratio of a UMC-200 + UPA, XPA, or XPR amps. In my experience AVRs offer many features like internet radio and streaming music that are of no use to me. Others may have a much different list of expectations. It all depends on the room volume, distance to listener, speaker efficiency, speaker impedance and target volume level. You can also pick up some very nice receivers in the used market that would be lower cost than the combo you are talking about that would allow more money for other things. You can pickup a used AVR that used to cost $2,000 for about $400 that will free up significant dollars for some people to put in better speakers or room acoustics. Some people also listen at way too low a level so they need a loudness switch to compensate that is not found in some preamps.
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Post by paintedklown on Feb 26, 2013 16:20:03 GMT -5
I just stumbled across this thread (and decided to come back out of lurker mode to comment) and I have to say that I am VERY impressed with the comments made in regards to this low cost, and obviously high quality, processor. Kudos to Big Dan, Lonnie, and the rest of the Emo crew. It looks like you have hit another one out of the park!
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Post by reddman71 on Feb 26, 2013 17:17:54 GMT -5
I agree with the above comment. I'm seriously considering giving the UMC-200 an audition. I really did enjoy the sq of the UMC-1 before I sold it.
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Post by Dan Laufman on Feb 26, 2013 17:34:02 GMT -5
Hmmmm, your comments on IP are well noted!
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xki
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Post by xki on Feb 26, 2013 18:33:34 GMT -5
Keeping all of the correction in a single device that is already processing the data in the digital domain at a high bit depth makes more sense to me than converting it back and forth several times between analog and digital and counting on no extra errors to be introduced. This should be on a poster.
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Post by The Mad Norseman on Feb 26, 2013 18:57:07 GMT -5
UMR has been to my house on 2 visits and he does charge much less after a few visits.He also does a great job on Display units as he did with my Pioneer Plasma 3 years ago.I will have him back in Summer to recheck the settings on the Plasma and redo my Audio settings as I have new speakers,Oppo-103 and new Pre Pro for him to calibrate and also 2 new Subs.The reason I love how Jeff calibrates is he does not rush or take shortcuts and explains ALL the setings he makes and when he is finished ALL settings for AUDIO and VIDEO is printed in a booklet so you can have for reference if your settings are lost for any reason. A class act all around! That sounds really nice, and a service I might be interested in! Say Jeff?, ever venture up to the "Land of 10,000 taxes?", er,...I mean - the Twin Cities area???
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umr
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Post by umr on Feb 26, 2013 19:47:40 GMT -5
That sounds really nice, and a service I might be interested in! Say Jeff?, ever venture up to the "Land of 10,000 taxes?", er,...I mean - the Twin Cities area??? If you mean St. Paul/Minneapolis that is one of the few metro areas I do not venture.
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Brainsick
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Post by Brainsick on Feb 26, 2013 20:42:49 GMT -5
Im from the Saint Paul,MN, YEA your not missing much....
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Post by The Mad Norseman on Feb 26, 2013 22:53:49 GMT -5
That sounds really nice, and a service I might be interested in! Say Jeff?, ever venture up to the "Land of 10,000 taxes?", er,...I mean - the Twin Cities area??? If you mean St. Paul/Minneapolis that is one of the few metro areas I do not venture. Yes, THAT Twin Cities...but its too bad you don't come up here, we're not too far from MO! But instead, maybe you can recommend someone here that performs the same service since you guys usually keep tabs on each other...(?). Thanks anyway!
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Post by calvinhobbe on Feb 27, 2013 8:33:50 GMT -5
Im from the Saint Paul,MN, YEA your not missing much.... Well, depends on if you want horsemeat meatballs...LOL Yea Ikea.... It would be nice if Emo did a video of a calibration of the UMC series like Lonnie did on how to do f/w upgrades on the UMC-1. Of course we all know that one of the member here did an incredible job on a set of instructions on that one, but it was a start. Informational videos can be extremely useful to newbies & pros alike as it allows them to fully visualize the process. Just a suggestion.
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