|
Post by garbulky on Jul 26, 2013 18:55:09 GMT -5
www.axiomaudio.com/m100-floorstanding-speakersAnd there it is. Being an m80 v2 owner with the v3 electronics and drivers included in the package I honestly don't know what to think. $2690 is a steep price for adding an extra pair of 6.5 inch woofers to the setup. I paid approximately 1300 for the m80's at the time and since then they have gone up to 1500 for the exact same product (plus magnetic grills). So essentially I would be paying the price of two m80 v2's to get one m100 and I'm not sure why.... The site is scant on details on why it is "better" than the m80's. On the other hand the bryston take on this using axiom drivers and everything uses 3 8 inch bass drivers. I've been waiting for these for a long time and am a little underwhelmed. If they sold them for $1800 or so, that would be a different story. Any fellow axiom owners want to chime in?
|
|
|
Post by GreenKiwi on Jul 26, 2013 19:37:48 GMT -5
Just a few drivers... I love the white drivers with the "Red" wood.
|
|
|
Post by jdskycaster on Jul 26, 2013 20:05:15 GMT -5
Not an Axiom owner but they sure look impressive.
|
|
|
Post by solarrdadd on Jul 26, 2013 21:08:21 GMT -5
bulky, they are nice looking speakers, i'll give them that; but so are my M80v3's! you know i'm an axiom guy got them all over the place here. however, i just don't see anything that is pushing me to want to change out what i have as far as big towers are concerned. just to get three of notches lower than 34 is not a reason for me to upgrade (and at those prices). i'm happy with the big towers i have. i would say, if i didn't have the axiom towers i have, yeah, i'd spend the money no problem, but, not as an upgrade. bulky, are you getting the urge to upgrade? these are the kind of threads we put up to get others to justify our need to scratch that itch! if you do get them, let me know what you think (as if you wouldn't! )
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Jul 27, 2013 0:30:19 GMT -5
bulky, they are nice looking speakers, i'll give them that; but so are my M80v3's! you know i'm an axiom guy got them all over the place here. however, i just don't see anything that is pushing me to want to change out what i have as far as big towers are concerned. just to get three of notches lower than 34 is not a reason for me to upgrade (and at those prices). i'm happy with the big towers i have. i would say, if i didn't have the axiom towers i have, yeah, i'd spend the money no problem, but, not as an upgrade. bulky, are you getting the urge to upgrade? these are the kind of threads we put up to get others to justify our need to scratch that itch! if you do get them, let me know what you think (as if you wouldn't! ) That's sort of my conundrum! I am happy with the m80's. And for me to spend essentially 3k and I imagine the majority of people looking to upgrade have the m60's and m80's don't really want to spend so much more for two more drivers - the same drivers and the same type of enclosure and materials. I have no doubt they sound great, just wish they were a bit cheaper because at 3k there's a ton of really nice options. Yes, I do have an itch to upgrade. I love what the axioms do but they also give you hints of what you want more of. I'm looking for more of that especially air, depth, detail in the soundstage, and a slight improvement in composure during dynamics.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Jul 27, 2013 1:57:34 GMT -5
...I'm looking for more of that especially air, depth, detail in the soundstage, and a slight improvement in composure during dynamics. What you need are not bigger speakers but a bigger room. If you already had that, then (and only then) would the M100s be a significant improvement. In your current room, with a blindfold on, I'd bet a dinner at Waka House that you couldn't tell the difference between your current M80s and the M100s. Since we don't have M100s to try, we could test that theory by hauling your current M80s to my room as we discussed. I'll bet you won't even recognize them as the same speakers with the larger room. Speakers with vertically-separated, discreet drivers (like your M80s) need a certain amount of distance to allow the drivers to blend. If you're too close to them (and you are), the drivers have a tendency to sound discreet as opposed to unitary. For a room your size, you need either a point source (think KEF R50): or maybe a true line source: Even these Axioms would do better in your existing room (maybe with a subwoofer) than what you've got: Without more distance, anything with vertically-separated discreet drivers (like your M80s or even worse, the M100s) just won't blend completely. Yes, you get imaging in your current room, but you won't get the best your speakers have to offer without more space. I'll keep an eye out for some $5 mini-monitors at yard sales, or we might haul the LS3/5a speakers over to your place. When you hear what they can do in your room, you'll completely understand what I'm talking about. Just my two cents... Boomzilla
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Jul 27, 2013 8:14:01 GMT -5
...I'm looking for more of that especially air, depth, detail in the soundstage, and a slight improvement in composure during dynamics. What you need are not bigger speakers but a bigger room. If you already had that, then (and only then) would the M100s be a significant improvement. In your current room, with a blindfold on, I'd bet a dinner at Waka House that you couldn't tell the difference between your current M80s and the M100s. Since we don't have M100s to try, we could test that theory by hauling your current M80s to my room as we discussed. I'll bet you won't even recognize them as the same speakers with the larger room. Speakers with vertically-separated, discreet drivers (like your M80s) need a certain amount of distance to allow the drivers to blend. If you're too close to them (and you are), the drivers have a tendency to sound discreet as opposed to unitary. For a room your size, you need either a point source (think KEF R50): or maybe a true line source: Even these Axioms would do better in your existing room (maybe with a subwoofer) than what you've got: Without more distance, anything with vertically-separated discreet drivers (like your M80s or even worse, the M100s) just won't blend completely. Yes, you get imaging in your current room, but you won't get the best your speakers have to offer without more space. I'll keep an eye out for some $5 mini-monitors at yard sales, or we might haul the LS3/5a speakers over to your place. When you hear what they can do in your room, you'll completely understand what I'm talking about. Just my two cents... Boomzilla I do understand what you mean. I can actually at times tell the sounds are coming from the bass/mid-range etc. I've been considering moving the speakers longways but it is a big undertaking. The entire living room would have to be moved around!
|
|
cgolf
Emo VIPs
Posts: 4,613
|
Post by cgolf on Jul 27, 2013 8:53:02 GMT -5
I've looked at the 100's also but all you get as I can tell is a pair of extra bass drivers for an extra grand. For $2700 there are some nice speakers besides the Axioms.
I have the 80s v2/v3 and went through an upgrade time. Couldn't find anything that gave me more of what I wanted without spending closer to $5k!!
I'm keeping the 80s for now.....
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Jul 27, 2013 14:26:21 GMT -5
I've tried the Spendor LS3/5a speakers today - Although they're clear as a bell, the frequency response just isn't my cuppa... Back to the DefTechs until something more interesting comes around.
I'm afraid that Garbulky will bring his Axiom M80s over here and I'll fall in love.
Boom
|
|
|
Post by ludi on Jul 27, 2013 14:50:34 GMT -5
If you want to add some extra woofers, why not add this from Axiom? EP800 v3 Subwoofer: "This is no mere subwoofer - it's The Hand of Zeus." For only $2,480.00 USD
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Jul 27, 2013 14:59:03 GMT -5
DON'T even tempt me!
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Jul 27, 2013 16:13:01 GMT -5
I've tried the Spendor LS3/5a speakers today - Although they're clear as a bell, the frequency response just isn't my cuppa... Back to the DefTechs until something more interesting comes around. I'm afraid that Garbulky will bring his Axiom M80s over here and I'll fall in love. Boom Hehe. I don't know if you will, but I have a feeling they will sound better at your house than mine. That extra room sounds perfect for it. The m80's can be found used for very little on the dollar, like around $5-700 per pair. Just make sure the v2 has got the v3 guts in it and you are good to go.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2013 16:17:39 GMT -5
>> Without more distance, anything with vertically-separated discreet drivers (like your M80s or even worse, the M100s) just won't blend completely. <<
The biggest problem I see with the Axioms is the height of the tweeters - they are well above most people's ears when they are seated. Also, getting so many drivers to "play nicely" with one another is another big issue. Unless those drivers are hand-matched to each other (and in pairs) within 0.5db (and I seriously doubt they are), you are going to hear the deleterious effects of mis-matched drivers not playing in concert with one another.
I would much rather have (and I do, heh, heh!) fewer, better-matched drivers with minimal or no crossover networks smearing the sound and soaking up energy. The Axioms prey on most folks' feelings that more is necessarily better. In the case of speakers, very much the opposite is true. The *ideal* speaker would have a single, full-range driver that accurately covered the entire audible spectrum from 20-20k Hz. Since this goal is virtually impossible to achieve, the closer you can get to this ideal, the better the speaker.
And that is why the KEF LS50s that were referenced are such good speakers. True, they have no bottom end. But they do cover the range of 80-20k Hz quite well and are a true point source. If augmented by a carefully matched subwoofer or two, there are few speakers, if any, that are their match....
-RW-
|
|
|
Post by deltadube on Jul 27, 2013 16:23:01 GMT -5
just wondering Garbulky what is the size of your room?
cheers
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Jul 27, 2013 16:57:53 GMT -5
...The m80's can be found used for very little, like around $5-700 per pair... I'll take the $5 pair, thanks! LOL
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Jul 27, 2013 17:06:47 GMT -5
...The biggest problem I see with the Axioms is the height of the tweeters...Also, getting so many drivers to "play nicely" with one another is another big issue. Unless those drivers are hand-matched to each other (and in pairs) within 0.5db (and I seriously doubt they are), you are going to hear the deleterious effects... Hi RLW - In theory, yes, the height of the tweeters should be an issue. However, when I listened at 'Bulky's house, the treble sounded fine. I'm tall, so that may have been why. In theory, yes, the matching of drivers should be audible. However, (again) when I listened, I didn't hear anything amiss. In fact, the speakers somewhat shocked me. I was expecting a very, very bright, hard sound from all those metal drivers (woofs, mids, AND tweeters are metal). Instead, the speakers presented a very natural, somewhat laid-back, "organic" sound without any edginess at all. When theory disagrees with experience, trust experience every time. I agree with everything you've said, RL; it makes engineering sense. Axiom has somehow avoided the theoretical pitfalls and wrought a whole that seems to be a bit more than the sum of its parts. The Axiom M80s are something special, IMHO, and if the rest of the company's products perform to the same level, then they should be on ANYONE's "must audition" list. Cordially - Boomzilla
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Jul 27, 2013 20:51:29 GMT -5
>> Without more distance, anything with vertically-separated discreet drivers (like your M80s or even worse, the M100s) just won't blend completely. << The biggest problem I see with the Axioms is the height of the tweeters - they are well above most people's ears when they are seated. Also, getting so many drivers to "play nicely" with one another is another big issue. Unless those drivers are hand-matched to each other (and in pairs) within 0.5db (and I seriously doubt they are), you are going to hear the deleterious effects of mis-matched drivers not playing in concert with one another. I would much rather have (and I do, heh, heh!) fewer, better-matched drivers with minimal or no crossover networks smearing the sound and soaking up energy. The Axioms prey on most folks' feelings that more is necessarily better. In the case of speakers, very much the opposite is true. The *ideal* speaker would have a single, full-range driver that accurately covered the entire audible spectrum from 20-20k Hz. Since this goal is virtually impossible to achieve, the closer you can get to this ideal, the better the speaker. And that is why the KEF LS50s that were referenced are such good speakers. True, they have no bottom end. But they do cover the range of 80-20k Hz quite well and are a true point source. If augmented by a carefully matched subwoofer or two, there are few speakers, if any, that are their match.... -RW- The axiom drivers are matched (though not handmatched AFAIK) but their runs have been compared and they are all "supposed" to perform within a narrow variation range. I think it is something along the lines of a db or something with each other. They are not perfect speakers but they like cgolf mentioned offer quite a bit where it makes a person's "upgrade" decision tough to make to keep it worthwhile. The tweeters in my m80's get me around from the middle of my ear to just above the top of my head when I am sitting. I imagine the taller m100 towers will have the tweeter even higher. I'm not sure how well this will work but overall if one hasn't listened to a whole lot of high end stuff they do come together decently amd don't stick out. But sometimes you can hear sounds do "height" - whether it is included in the recording or not I'm not sure but you can kind of tell, okay that was the tweeter or that was the bass. But whatever sound gets produced it still gets included into the soundstage. It's not artificially stretched etc. Then again I listen to it at a reasonably close distance - not the distance these towers were meant for. If you put your ear close to the drivers like about a foot or two away you can easily tell which one produces the sound. But I assume this is true for all speakers if you get close enough. There is something axiom talks about called 'comb" effects which they claim are not audible but are present in their design and for the large part they are correct. But it is made apparent if you move your head around while listneing to the song. It seems to affect its off-axis listening and gives you a strange effect if you move your head tilted side to side constantly but I can't describe it sort of like a doppler effect. It's subtle and I don't listen to music like that. I too would like the point sources, but I am wary. Mainly because one driver has to handle a whole lot. But I guess if the drivers are real quality they can and going to B's place I have definitely been surprised as to what small higher quality drivers can handle! I also really really like the dynamics this speaker is capable off. ...The biggest problem I see with the Axioms is the height of the tweeters...Also, getting so many drivers to "play nicely" with one another is another big issue. Unless those drivers are hand-matched to each other (and in pairs) within 0.5db (and I seriously doubt they are), you are going to hear the deleterious effects... Hi RLW - In theory, yes, the height of the tweeters should be an issue. However, when I listened at 'Bulky's house, the treble sounded fine. I'm tall, so that may have been why. In theory, yes, the matching of drivers should be audible. However, (again) when I listened, I didn't hear anything amiss. In fact, the speakers somewhat shocked me. I was expecting a very, very bright, hard sound from all those metal drivers (woofs, mids, AND tweeters are metal). Instead, the speakers presented a very natural, somewhat laid-back, "organic" sound without any edginess at all. When theory disagrees with experience, trust experience every time. I agree with everything you've said, RL; it makes engineering sense. Axiom has somehow avoided the theoretical pitfalls and wrought a whole that seems to be a bit more than the sum of its parts. The Axiom M80s are something special, IMHO, and if the rest of the company's products perform to the same level, then they should be on ANYONE's "must audition" list. Cordially - Boomzilla I am very glad that you described my set like that! I've found the passive pre-amp with a longer wire set contributed a lot to that delicate sound. With shorter wires there was more bass extension and definitely more dynamics but the sound felt harsher at least in my smaller living space. The way they designed these speakers other than using regular engineering is that they used double blind tests and kept making changes. The double blind tests were also done with entry level audiophile equipment in a standard room that somebody buying at this price range would expect to have. A surprising choice, but nevertheless probably one done on purpose. However they are also tested and design in a separate anechoic room they use to attempt to get some even FR etc. just wondering Garbulky what is the size of your room? cheers It's a small-medium living room. Approaching medium size but not quite there. It also has high sloped ceilings. The speakers are against the long wall preventing me from moving very far away from them. About 6-8 feet diagonal from listening position I guesstimate.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Jul 27, 2013 21:34:48 GMT -5
Hi Gar - You're SO going to have to listen WITH a preamp and SOON. I've got two in the house - an old Crown IC-150 and the Emotiva USP-1. I'm tempted to let you try the Crown first so you'll appreciate the USP-1 the more when you hear it, but it's your choice. Sooner or later, I'll find a Dynaco PAS tube preamp at a yard sale. Once I tinker with it a bit, you'll fall in love with that one!
My advice to you is this: Keep your Axiom M80s. They are fine now, and whenever you buy a house with a bigger listening room, you'll need not change. They'll just sound better & better the larger a room you put them in.
If you could do one thing to improve your system (ignoring room treatment and room size) it might be a preamplifier. That would not only offer you flexible switching, but also get you away from needing the passive preamp with its hyper-sensitivity to interconnects. And of course, I could be wrong...
Boomzilla
|
|
|
Post by wiskers on Jul 27, 2013 21:57:06 GMT -5
How about an equalizer?
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Jul 27, 2013 22:07:50 GMT -5
I don't think the M80s need one. They're pretty neutral.
|
|