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Post by Nodscene on Sept 12, 2014 1:47:38 GMT -5
For anyone that knows about this sort of thing, how easy is something like this to prevent if thought about before hand....basically the planning/building stages. I believe I've run across this ages ago with what was probably a Yamaha but it was never really loud enough to notice except between songs and only if very loud. I figure some simple shielding would most likely take care of this but I could be missing something.
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Post by bluescale on Sept 12, 2014 2:00:16 GMT -5
For anyone that knows about this sort of thing, how easy is something like this to prevent if thought about before hand....basically the planning/building stages. I believe I've run across this ages ago with what was probably a Yamaha but it was never really loud enough to notice except between songs and only if very loud. I figure some simple shielding would most likely take care of this but I could be missing something. That's what I was hoping to find out. I would love it if Lonnie or KeithL would comment on this, but they've gone silent recently . I'm sure they're busy working on getting Dirac out the door. I don't know if srrndhound is willing to speak to this at all. If not, I understand, but if he's willing, I'm sure he has the experience to weigh in.
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Post by solidstate on Sept 12, 2014 7:33:42 GMT -5
What possible reason would anyone have to use the analog multi channel inputs in the first place? Not trying to make excuses here for Emo but really man... Does this not defeat the purpose of a modern digital input PROCESSOR in the first place?
If the input bleed/crosstalk is that bad then it's rather obvious little design effort was placed on those inputs other than to add them to the spec sheet.
I still have zero comprehension of why anyone would use those analog inputs as you're going to have a ADC anyway so any upstream converters are pointless.
I sure hope the RMC-1 has zero analog inputs so more effort and PCB space can be used for better quality DAC and I/V with truly differential outputs on all channels.
Heck I'd even remove the radio tuner circuitry if I thought it contributed one iota of noise!
All you need is one set of single and balanced inputs and that's it IMHO. That should appease the vinyl heads.
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Post by foggy1956 on Sept 12, 2014 7:46:56 GMT -5
What possible reason would anyone have to use the analog multi channel inputs in the first place? Not trying to make excuses here for Emo but really man... Does this not defeat the purpose of a modern digital input PROCESSOR in the first place? If the input bleed/crosstalk is that bad then it's rather obvious little design effort was placed on those inputs other than to add them to the spec sheet. I still have zero comprehension of why anyone would use those analog inputs as you're going to have a ADC anyway so any upstream converters are pointless. I sure hope the RMC-1 has zero analog inputs so more effort and PCB space can be used for better quality DAC and I/V with truly differential outputs on all channels. Heck I'd even remove the radio tuner circuitry if I thought it contributed one iota of noise! All you need is one set of single and balanced inputs and that's it IMHO. That should appease the vinyl heads.☺
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Post by solidstate on Sept 12, 2014 7:47:51 GMT -5
What possible reason would anyone have to use the analog multi channel inputs in the first place? Not trying to make excuses here for Emo but really man... Does this not defeat the purpose of a modern digital input PROCESSOR in the first place? If the input bleed/crosstalk is that bad then it's rather obvious little design effort was placed on those inputs other than to add them to the spec sheet. I still have zero comprehension of why anyone would use those analog inputs as you're going to have a ADC anyway so any upstream converters are pointless. I sure hope the RMC-1 has zero analog inputs so more effort and PCB space can be used for better quality DAC and I/V with truly differential outputs on all channels. Heck I'd even remove the radio tuner circuitry if I thought it contributed one iota of noise! All you need is one set of single and balanced inputs and that's it IMHO. That should appease the vinyl heads. Now that is a real beta tester talking? LOL I'll confirm the input bleed at some point. Right now I don't have a source with 5/7.1 output as my transport is a PC and I use HDMI into the XMC-1. My BDU source is an Echostar IRD and I use HDMI on it as well. The other two sources is an Xbox 360 and Minix Neo 8H and all use HDMI. My only complaint so far is the SHARP EDGES ON THE REMOTES! I mentioned this years ago multiple times and I can't believe they still have remotes with edges so sharp you can cut yourself on them. All the Chinese have to do is buff those edges before they dip them and I can see why this has not been addressed with the ODM/OEM for the remote. FIX THE SHARP EDGES ON THOSE ALUMINUM REMOTES EMOTIVA!
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Sept 12, 2014 7:49:23 GMT -5
Now that is a real beta tester talking? To be fair none of the "real" beta testers found this either. But a bench test would have found it.
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Post by solidstate on Sept 12, 2014 7:54:57 GMT -5
I just unpacked the XDA-2 and it's remote has edges so sharp it's friggin ridiculous!
If you ran the edge of the thing against flesh it would cut you easily.
I don't get why the Chinese OEM/ODM can't have a worker take all of thirty seconds a piece to smooth those edges before anodizing them.
This issue needs to be addressed!
PS I have to say it's a heavy solid little unit!
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Post by bluescale on Sept 12, 2014 10:29:39 GMT -5
What possible reason would anyone have to use the analog multi channel inputs in the first place? Not trying to make excuses here for Emo but really man... Does this not defeat the purpose of a modern digital input PROCESSOR in the first place? I think it's been mentioned to you before by others, but it's not about just how you want to use the XMC-1. It's about meeting the needs of the greater public. It's wonderful that you've moved away from analog inputs (for the most part, so have I). Plenty of others still use analog. Perhaps you can't fathom why, but it's time you accepted the fact and moved on.
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Post by solidstate on Sept 12, 2014 11:17:05 GMT -5
What possible reason would anyone have to use the analog multi channel inputs in the first place? Not trying to make excuses here for Emo but really man... Does this not defeat the purpose of a modern digital input PROCESSOR in the first place? I think it's been mentioned to you before by others, but it's not about just how you want to use the XMC-1. It's about meeting the needs of the greater public. It's wonderful that you've moved away from analog inputs (for the most part, so have I). Plenty of others still use analog. Perhaps you can't fathom why, but it's time you accepted the fact and moved on. OK but can you please cite a scenario where it makes sense to use 5/7.1 analog inputs with perhaps the exception of an edit suite with surround monitors where the inputs are coming from a pro audio sound card? Personally I can't think of any other scenario where this would be necessary or wise in terms of consumer use. Fancy DAC in your Blueray player perhaps? Well what's the point when you're going to have a ADC through the DSP engine anyway. I do have issue with the XMC-1 12v triggers kicking on and off when connected to a stack of UPA-1s and this is a disappointment. I have a feeling the trigger cannot provide enough current. You'd think Emo/Jade would be aware of the current draw for the 12V trigger on their amps and design a trigger circuit that could handle it. Lets hope they are working on a PCB revision change where the triggers can provide more current if this is in fact the issue vs. some kinda microcontroller issue. I guess I could just solder a resistor/cap/diode inline on the trigger cable but this is BS that they can't get the trigger circuit right so it works properly with their own amps for god's sake. How the heck could that have been over looked!?! I'm sure they were aware of the issue but decide to ship with the trigger PCBs in question. How the heck can I have a processor that doesn't have a working trigger? The UMC-1 had no issues with the UPA-1s trigger input current draw so why should the XMC-1!?! Perhaps a firmware update can fix this.
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Post by solidstate on Sept 12, 2014 11:51:28 GMT -5
OK but can you please cite a scenario where it makes sense to use 5/7.1 analog inputs with perhaps the exception of an edit suite with surround monitors where the inputs are coming from a pro audio sound card? Personally I can't think of any other scenario where this would be necessary or wise in terms of consumer use. Fancy DAC in your Blueray player perhaps? Well what's the point when you're going to have a ADC through the DSP engine anyway. I do have issue with the XMC-1 12v triggers kicking on and off when connected to a stack of UPA-1s and this is a disappointment. I have a feeling the trigger cannot provide enough current. You'd think Emo/Jade would be aware of the current draw for the 12V trigger on their amps and design a trigger circuit that could handle it. Lets hope they are working on a PCB revision change where the triggers can provide more current! I guess I could just solder a resistor inline on the trigger cable but this is BS that they can't get the trigger circuit right so it works properly with their own amps for god's sake. How the heck could that have been over looked!?! I'm sure they were aware of the issue but decide to ship with the trigger PCBs in question. It's this kind of thing that bothers me... the FACT they would be aware of this issue yet not fix/replace the trigger circuit before shipment.How the heck can I have a processor that doesn't have a working trigger? The UMC-1 had no issues with the UPA-1s trigger input current draw so why should the XMC-1!?! TOTAL BS...Sad, so very sad. Better ship it back ASAP. Time to start beta testing for someone else Well you unpack something and try it and right off the bat it doesn't work properly. I edited my emotionally charged post to not be so heavy handed so it would be great if you'd delete or correct the quote. I still stand by the statement it's BS it doesn't work properly with their own branded amplifiers but I just had a look in my parts bin and I can fix it with a resistor, diode and smoothing cap according to Emo/Jade. I spoke with Emo/Jade about it and they claim they were not aware of the trigger issue so all I can do is believe them and take Keith's word on it. If it's a current issues vs. a microcontroller firmware issue then the trigger section should be reworked!
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Post by bluescale on Sept 12, 2014 12:17:32 GMT -5
I spoke with Emo/Jade about it and they claim they were not aware of the trigger issue so all I can do is believe them and take Keith's word on it. That is puzzling and disconcerting. A number of customers here have been offered a solution for the trigger issue (i.e., the modified cable, or the trigger module), to use until Emotiva releases the firmware fix that resolves this issue. I wish their tech support was more consistent with the answers they provide.
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Post by solidstate on Sept 12, 2014 12:20:55 GMT -5
I spoke with Emo/Jade about it and they claim they were not aware of the trigger issue so all I can do is believe them and take Keith's word on it. That is puzzling and disconcerting. A number of customers here have been offered a solution for the trigger issue (i.e., the modified cable, or the trigger module), to use until Emotiva releases the firmware fix that resolves this issue. I wish their tech support was more consistent with the answers they provide. What I mean is they were not aware until shipping and didn't notice the issue in lab. This is still sorta hard to believe IMHO but like I said, they were not aware of the issue when they tested with Gen2 amps.
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kse
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Post by kse on Sept 12, 2014 12:45:56 GMT -5
So no beta testers were used prior to shipping this thing?
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Post by geebo on Sept 12, 2014 12:52:44 GMT -5
So no beta testers were used prior to shipping this thing? More precisely no beta testers with older amps that also used triggering for those older amps.
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kse
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Post by kse on Sept 12, 2014 12:58:55 GMT -5
So no beta testers were used prior to shipping this thing? More precisely no beta testers with older amps that also used triggering for those older amps. That must be it....
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tubby
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Post by tubby on Sept 12, 2014 12:59:59 GMT -5
So no beta testers were used prior to shipping this thing? Apparently none that had amps that had exhibited the problem. AS unlikely as that may be why would they release it with the issue if they knew about it when it is a simple FW fix. I my mind if the trigger issues is the biggest bug (and I think it is), I don't see the big deal. They already have a fix waiting for release, in a few weeks this is just water under the bridge. Edit:typed to slow...
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kse
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Post by kse on Sept 12, 2014 13:03:53 GMT -5
So no beta testers were used prior to shipping this thing? Apparently none that had amps that had exhibited the problem. AS unlikely as that may be why would they release it with the issue if they knew about it when it is a simple FW fix. I my mind if the trigger issues is the biggest bug (and I think it is), I don't see the big deal. They already have a fix waiting for release, in a few weeks this is just water under the bridge. Edit:typed to slow... Let's hope so. I want one, but zero chance I'm spending $2000 on a pro that can't turn on my amps by the same mfg.
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tubby
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Post by tubby on Sept 12, 2014 14:03:45 GMT -5
Concerning Zone 2 output, I don't think it was specifically tested yet so I set up a zone 2 output this afternoon to give it a go. Unfortunately when selecting and unused analog input (A3) I was able to hear loud and clear what I had connected though a different input (A2).
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Sept 12, 2014 15:10:50 GMT -5
Concerning Zone 2 output, I don't think it was specifically tested yet so I set up a zone 2 output this afternoon to give it a go. Unfortunately when selecting and unused analog input (A3) I was able to hear loud and clear what I had connected though a different input (A2). Thanks for verifying. For those users that voted no. This is no, with analog inputs I didn't hear any bleedthrough? or are these all just digital only users?
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Sept 12, 2014 16:54:15 GMT -5
More precisely no beta testers with older amps that also used triggering for those older amps. That must be it.... My XPR-2 and XPR-5 have not been affected by this trigger issue, so I would not have noticed it. As for the crosstalk/bleeding issue, I used the balanced inputs with my ERC-2 and tried the 7.1 input with an Oppo BDP-93. I would've never noticed any bleeding from the inputs as I have the "INPUT" triggers to turn on and off per source, so I've not had more than one source that was powered on playing at a time.
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