twism
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Post by twism on Oct 31, 2014 14:30:40 GMT -5
i will almost guarantee that in a blind test with no room correction you wont be able to tell the iference between the XMC and the 7702 I agree with this 100%. I am a bit of an emo fan, mainly because of the speakers and amp offerings. If it doesn't change anything with the XMC-1 I would love to have the option to add ATMOS down the road, for now I don't know if that will be possible. I bought the XMC-1 because I do want Emotiva to succeed in the pre-pro market. If nobody had stuck with them then they would likely never try another pre-pro again. I don't want to see that happen. I want to see them thrive and be the best they can be. I know they have made mistakes, I am not a blind fan and I don't give them a pass for the lateness of the XMC-1, or this Dirac dragging along, but I hope they do learn from it all at some point. I want them to bring out the XMC-2 buy stating on a Monday that they are releasing a new processor, and having orders go live that Friday!
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Oct 31, 2014 14:39:22 GMT -5
weather you have a need or want for ATMOS at all...its still the latest tech and the XMC1 doesnt have it..so yes its outdated...doesnt mean it doesnt check all the boxes for some people...im sure its great! but if you are shelling out 2K I would expect the processor to have all the latest tech available ...so IMHO its outdated this all is not even mentioning you are all arguing with the idea that the XMC1 HAS DIRAC...which it does NOT....when that comes out...it can be used in an argument...but lets be honest here...EMO has been saying "its close" since May With that logic what you have now is outdated too. HDCP 2.2 is missing from virtually all gear this year. Virtually everything out there now is outdated except for the new Onkyos AVRs. so are you going to "upgrade" to the Onkyo just because it has HDCP 2.2? Remember you said the same about Atmos. It should be there even if you don't use it. All of the latest tech.
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Oct 31, 2014 14:59:47 GMT -5
well...I guess..i am in the very wrong spot (emo forum) vs the very wrong crowd (xmc1 owners) to ever win this battle...so i will bow out...cause you will paint the picture the way that makes you feel the best. I was 100% going to buy the XMC-1 when it came out...but when my name came up DIRAC was still not out...and so I decided to try ATMOS at no cost...and man its a winner (well at least DSU is..since ther isnt much true ATMOS content at this time)! so I would never consider a product without it...I fully understand everyones point of view...but I disagree and it (XMC1) is in fact outdated ...but that is my view on it... have fun guys Don't leave. The fun is still going. No one here is trashing anyone else. Like you I passed when Dirac wasn't ready. But more power to those that didn't. Like you, Atmos is an exciting new toy but I can't cut in ceiling speakers. yet given that I would like to experiment with bouncing some sound off the ceiling. it may be worth it it may be not. Don't know until I try it so I get the angle of it would be nice if it was there. But I'm a realist and it isn't in the XMC so I know how to judge it accordingly. I would not just dismiss it just because it is missing a feature. That isn't logical since I can make that point about every product made today.
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Post by deewan on Oct 31, 2014 15:33:07 GMT -5
Like you, Atmos is an exciting new toy but I can't cut in ceiling speakers. yet given that I would like to experiment with bouncing some sound off the ceiling. it may be worth it it may be not. Don't know until I try it so I get the angle of it would be nice if it was there. But I'm a realist and it isn't in the XMC so I know how to judge it accordingly. I would not just dismiss it just because it is missing a feature. That isn't logical since I can make that point about every product made today. So this may be the wrong thread to post this in, but since bootman mentioned bouncing sound off the ceiling... One of the things I find interesting about ATMOS is the option of not needing to put speakers on the ceiling. Pioneer and I think Def Tech's "solutions" for people who want ATMOS but don't want to put speakers in or on the ceiling suggests buying angled speakers to set on top of your front channels and bounce sound off the ceiling to achieve the ATMOS effect. I see a few issues here. Problem 1) My personal opinion after doing hours and hours of research while rebuilding my dedicated theater with an emphasis on acoustics, the first reflection point for the ceiling and floor needs to be heavily dampened. This holds true more for two-channel setups, but also true for multi-channel setups. If I were to buy ATMOS speakers to reflect off the ceiling, I'd lose some of my rooms acoustic properties or decrease the impact of the reflected sounds. Problem 2) If you are now planning to bounce sounds off reflection points in your room, people with room treatments will need to be very mindful of reflections, diffusion, and absorption. And how does the planned reflections impact other channels or room correction systems that attempt to tame or improve room issues caused by reflections or canceling waves. All things I will be very curious to see how they are handled. Could be a major issue, could be nothing to worry about.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Oct 31, 2014 15:41:39 GMT -5
i will almost guarantee that in a blind test with no room correction you wont be able to tell the iference between the XMC and the 7702 I hope this is not true because this is the reason why I would buy the XMC-1 over a "common" brand like the Marantz. Yes, having Atmos would be great but my first priority is absolute sound quality. Having said that, I did pass on the original email for the XMC-1 and still am on the fence about it because there is Atmos, HDMI 2.0 etc. looming out there. If the XMC-1 came out 2 years ago, I would have just bought it...no question.
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 31, 2014 15:47:31 GMT -5
The HDCP2.2 will eventually be a problem, but I know a smart Taiwanese company that I bet will come out with an illegal translator, HDFury. Hell, I use one of their previously illegal converters now on my 13 year old HD crt rear projector, which displays HDMI HDCP encoded Blu Rays perfectly even though the TV was built before either Blue Ray or HDMI were even formulated.
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 31, 2014 16:29:53 GMT -5
Just a few thoughts after reading a bit on this thread. I've been an enthusiast of home theater and have had a surround system up and running since 2001. I have just started to get educated about this "atmos" and after giving it the very small amount of consideration it deserves, I would say it's so far out of the realm of being pratical in the home that it doesn't even fall under a category of what would constitute ANY processor, I don't care who makes it as being outdated or not. I love 3D and I have it, along with the XMC-1, but 3D glasses alone are a pain just to keep up for 2 couples who may get together from time to time for the 3D experience. I just bought another pair after one died after less than 2 years. The point being, once you get past 3D and 7.1 or 2, you get into areas where the majority does not follow, for obvious reasons......poking holes in your ceiling for some additional sound rush? Give me a break! Atmos will become a great toy down the road for a VERY small number of enthusiasts but will probably go the way of the laser disc even faster. That will be an instant update for the XMC. Just a note about Marantz customer service......I once bought a Marantz 5 disc DVD changer that set me back over 700.00. It ran quirky for less than a year then just froze. I sent it back under warranty and got it back pretty quick with an entire new mechanism within. It worked great for a whole week, then broke again and there was no fixing it and no upgrade or support or anything from Marantz. I ended up having nothing to do but put it out with Monday's garbage. No Marantz for me even though the reviews for their latest processors have been very good indeed. In contrast, Samsung has lost money on me with their stellar customer service. My very expensive flat screen went bad a month out of warranty and they replaced it NO CHARGE....twice! (That's how I got into 3D because the replacement set had it as the nearest model to what went bad on me. I'm new to Emo with the XMC.....so far great!
Bill
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Post by tunatamer on Oct 31, 2014 16:49:37 GMT -5
Just a few thoughts after reading a bit on this thread. I've been an enthusiast of home theater and have had a surround system up and running since 2001. I have just started to get educated about this "atmos" and after giving it the very small amount of consideration it deserves, I would say it's so far out of the realm of being pratical in the home that it doesn't even fall under a category of what would constitute ANY processor, I don't care who makes it as being outdated or not. I love 3D and I have it, along with the XMC-1, but 3D glasses alone are a pain just to keep up for 2 couples who may get together from time to time for the 3D experience. I just bought another pair after one died after less than 2 years. The point being, once you get past 3D and 7.1 or 2, you get into areas where the majority does not follow, for obvious reasons......poking holes in your ceiling for some additional sound rush? Give me a break! Atmos will become a great toy down the road for a VERY small number of enthusiasts but will probably go the way of the laser disc even faster. That will be an instant update for the XMC. Just a note about Marantz customer service......I once bought a Marantz 5 disc DVD changer that set me back over 700.00. It ran quirky for less than a year then just froze. I sent it back under warranty and got it back pretty quick with an entire new mechanism within. It worked great for a whole week, then broke again and there was no fixing it and no upgrade or support or anything from Marantz. I ended up having nothing to do but put it out with Monday's garbage. No Marantz for me even though the reviews for their latest processors have been very good indeed. In contrast, Samsung has lost money on me with their stellar customer service. My very expensive flat screen went bad a month out of warranty and they replaced it NO CHARGE....twice! (That's how I got into 3D because the replacement set had it as the nearest model to what went bad on me. I'm new to Emo with the XMC.....so far great! Bill Along with Oppo and SVS, Emo has the best customer service I'v experienced and to me, that means a whole lot. Wait! I forgot Weber Grills. They sent me a new ignition unit TWO YEARS out of warranty, no charge. Maybe I'm just totally charming on the phone but I'll never buy another brand again I think. These days service is everything. We are no longer tied to what is available locally. Smart companies that want to develop customer loyalty understand this and deliver. Now where's my Dirac?
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 31, 2014 17:10:14 GMT -5
"Now where's my Dirac?"
I hear you! Just stepping back for a moment, I could have used a new AV processor before the XMC was ready, and the Marantz really filled the bill, but I was so put off by my, beyond miserable end user customer service experience with Marantz I felt I would have been nuts to go with them. Fortunately, I was able to fix the issue with my existing processor (sunfire) well enough to give me the time to wait until the XMC was ready. (Just downloaded 1.3 last night!) Bill
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Post by fbczar on Oct 31, 2014 19:54:28 GMT -5
Just a few thoughts after reading a bit on this thread. I've been an enthusiast of home theater and have had a surround system up and running since 2001. I have just started to get educated about this "atmos" and after giving it the very small amount of consideration it deserves, I would say it's so far out of the realm of being pratical in the home that it doesn't even fall under a category of what would constitute ANY processor, I don't care who makes it as being outdated or not. I love 3D and I have it, along with the XMC-1, but 3D glasses alone are a pain just to keep up for 2 couples who may get together from time to time for the 3D experience. I just bought another pair after one died after less than 2 years. The point being, once you get past 3D and 7.1 or 2, you get into areas where the majority does not follow, for obvious reasons......poking holes in your ceiling for some additional sound rush? Give me a break! Atmos will become a great toy down the road for a VERY small number of enthusiasts but will probably go the way of the laser disc even faster. That will be an instant update for the XMC. Just a note about Marantz customer service......I once bought a Marantz 5 disc DVD changer that set me back over 700.00. It ran quirky for less than a year then just froze. I sent it back under warranty and got it back pretty quick with an entire new mechanism within. It worked great for a whole week, then broke again and there was no fixing it and no upgrade or support or anything from Marantz. I ended up having nothing to do but put it out with Monday's garbage. No Marantz for me even though the reviews for their latest processors have been very good indeed. In contrast, Samsung has lost money on me with their stellar customer service. My very expensive flat screen went bad a month out of warranty and they replaced it NO CHARGE....twice! (That's how I got into 3D because the replacement set had it as the nearest model to what went bad on me. I'm new to Emo with the XMC.....so far great! Bill What about a 7.1.4 Atmos system is impractical in a home.? I have a dedicated home theater and adding four in ceiling speakers is not a problem structurally. Expensive? You bet, but not a physical problem. If you are talking about the average den or living room you may have a point. My understanding is that Atmos is not a subtle change and it sounds great. Truthfully, processors like the XMC-1 and AV7702 are not mass market products. They are designed for enthusiasts and are for a distinctly niche market. If Atmos is a distinct improvement people who love good sound will respond favorably. Most of the audio world seems set to bet on it.
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 31, 2014 20:19:51 GMT -5
"What about a 7.1.4 Atmos system is impractical in a home.?" Hi, this is what I said: "The point being, once you get past 3D and 7.1 or 2, you get into areas where the majority does not follow, for obvious reasons......poking holes in your ceiling for some additional sound rush? Give me a break!"
Impractical, meaning not cost effective for the average consumer. How much source material is out there to really justify all of what it takes to accomplish this? Yours is not so over the top....what about 11 channels as Marantz boasts? Hey for some who are really hooked on special effects movies it will be a blast. Do you use it for music?
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Post by fbczar on Nov 1, 2014 0:19:49 GMT -5
"What about a 7.1.4 Atmos system is impractical in a home.?" Hi, this is what I said: "The point being, once you get past 3D and 7.1 or 2, you get into areas where the majority does not follow, for obvious reasons......poking holes in your ceiling for some additional sound rush? Give me a break!" Impractical, meaning not cost effective for the average consumer. How much source material is out there to really justify all of what it takes to accomplish this? Yours is not so over the top....what about 11 channels as Marantz boasts? Hey for some who are really hooked on special effects movies it will be a blast. Do you use it for music? With respect, the same could have been said for the transition from stereo to 5.1 and then 7.1. Source material always lags. There is always resistance to change in general and new technology specifically. I remember when CD' s first became available. Many thought an overwhelming amount of music would be "lost" because they did not believe most existing analog music would be recorded to CD. Apparently, a huge number of folks cannot readily see the difference between Standard Definition and High Definition TV, let alone the difference between 720P and 1080P. 4K should throw everyone for a loop. Just how close to reality do we need to come? If you cannot see it or hear it then you are right to be skeptical, but I submit many folks can see, hear and enjoy the differences in all the technologies we are talking about, including ATMOS. I agree that ATMOS can be almost limitlessly expensive if you have the space to install dozens of ceiling speakers, and it is a pain to install in ceiling speakers, especially in a family room, but realistically speaking two or four additional speakers seems to provide considerable benefit relative to properly recorded material. I am certain my room could not handle more than four ceiling speakers. Several companies have offered as many as eleven speakers, but my room could not accept those configurations. Fortunately, ATMOS may work well for me.j I love stereo music, but I also like SACD multichannel. Listening to something like the Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" SACD on five identical speakers Is fantastic. I never really considered using ATMOS for music, but given the sound quality of Master Audio on BluRay I would say music recorded in high resolution and in ATMOS could be exceptional. Remember ATMOS has the ability to located sounds in space. Just like stereo creates a solid phantom center channel effect where no center channel exists, ATMOS could be fantastic for recreating a concert hall. I sense that music may be your primary interest. There is no doubt that even the finest surround sound processors are inferior to the best stereo preamp's for stereo music. As such, I can understand your skepticism relative to ATMOS and music. Processors like the AV7702 and the XMC-1 seem to be closing the gap, but it is not there yet. Thanks for your response. I am sure many thoughtful folks share your concerns.
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Post by Gary Cook on Nov 1, 2014 1:37:29 GMT -5
My recent experience with Marantz gear hasn't been that good, the 7005 was full of annoying bugs, so I got a UMC-1 instead. Which, believe it or not, gave me absolutely zero problems for half the price. My experiences with the local Marantz Distributors over the years has been less than satisfactory. They don't respond to emails and don't answer their phone. Considering that they are local and Emotiva is half the world away. They answer the phone every time and I get to talk to knowledgeable people like Joe and Nick. The Dealer who loaned me the 7005 tried again a year or so later with an 8801, which worked pretty well. But it did't sound as good as the UMC-200, at a quarter the cost, out of the box and after an afternoon PEQ session it was really no contest (my ears, my speakers, my room). I'm also not a fan of video processing in processors, I haven't found one that is bug free yet. I'l take pass through every time, thanks.
Atmos, HDCP 2.2, Auro, DTS HD, HEVC etc are all currently immature technology and I consider it too much of a risk to invest in right now. Maybe late 2015 / early 2016 I might have another look, by then my UMC-200 will be 4 years old, which is about the average life of a processor / AVR for me.
Cheers Gary
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Post by allyn22 on Nov 1, 2014 7:52:15 GMT -5
I've read through this thread and there are good healthy debates on both sides. I just got my xmc-1 (1st Emo piece) and I think it does a great job for me. Marantz was in-between cycles when I was looking for a new pre-pro and XMC-1 fit the bill. No one had an AV8801 when I called around the Pittsburgh area to even to listen to anyways, but I am satisfied with my choice. The other point to make is that with all of that on-board streaming, what is the life cycle of firmware updates? I have a Samsung smart tv that is not quite 3 years old and it can't connect to Netflix anymore (it will still connect to other things). I'm not sure what the standard audio companies commit to as far as life cycle.
My question is - has anyone heard how much better Atmos actually sounds or is it just a leap of faith at this point? I didn't and don't feel any need to get 3D and am wondering if Atmos is one of those diminishing returns kind of things that once it actually is available in many releases, will it sound that much better in the home theater realm?
I get a lot of blu-rays from our local library system and am surprised at how many do not come with decent Hi-def audio. Will that change for Atmos?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2014 8:07:08 GMT -5
I tried it out an absolutely LOVE it! Everyone I have talked to to try it feels the same (his is all with either in ceiling or in ceiling speakers)
The DSU is so much better than the plIIx ever was for 7.1. So immersive
THis is why my argument is so strong now against the xmc1 with NOT having it.
It will be a standard feature on all avr pre/pros within he year. Except if course..ahem.. You guessed it...
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Nov 1, 2014 8:37:17 GMT -5
I tried it out an absolutely LOVE it! Everyone I have talked to to try it feels the same (his is all with either in ceiling or in ceiling speakers) The DSU is so much better than the plIIx ever was for 7.1. So immersive THis is why my argument is so strong now against the xmc1 with NOT having it. It will be a standard feature on all avr pre/pros within he year. Except if course..ahem.. You guessed it... Wow, even Krell, Theta and McIntosh by the end of the year? I didn't realize that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2014 8:44:01 GMT -5
Sorry. Should have put "I predict" lol
Just like 7.1 has become the "standard"
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Post by allyn22 on Nov 1, 2014 8:50:50 GMT -5
I'm glad that you can hear a huge difference. For me, I'll pass for now until it matures and there is more source material available.
My prediction is that whatever came out on this first release is likely limited due to current hardware processing and current software. Unless I remember incorrectly, all room correction processing is limited to 48Khz due to processing capability. I can't help but wonder what what new processing capabilities there will be in a year or two that will help make great strides in things like Atmos. I'm not jumping on it yet as I don't upgrade every year and am hoping there will be better options later than cutting holes in the ceiling. I have plaster walls and want to avoid doing that at all costs. I'd hate to have a speaker die and then find the next generation has a smaller footprint.
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Post by Priapulus on Nov 1, 2014 8:51:00 GMT -5
> Pre-pros are always on the leading wave of new technology.
Most of us will agree that the XMC-1 is obsolete (though quite usable) and lacks features and newer standards that the Marantz and others have. The problem is that it takes man-years of software programming to keep up with the changing standards. It's clear that a small company like EMO lacks the resources to innovate and keep up to date, compared to Marantz. Proof of point:
Despite many delays, the XMC-1 was delivered with obsolete features, and incomplete (Dirac). EMO has never met any of their delivery promises on anything involving software and their processors (firmware patches, Dirac). None of the hardware upgrade promises for the unc-1 were ever deliver on. Many bugs in the UMC-1 firmware were never fixed; support was simply abandoned with the launch of the umc-200. It is much more profitable to bring out a new model with new features, that upgrade old models (like the xmc-1). Now to be fair, the price for the XMC-1 will probably drop $400 as soon as the 40% cards are out of circulation, just as they did with the umc-200.
So were does that leave me? I have $1,000 in the bank earmarked for an XMC-1 and will order as soon as I get the balance; because I have a 40% card, the XMC-1 is much more reliable than the UMC-1, sounds great and has the features I need. Dirac isn't important to me, and I can't mount speakers on the ceiling.
But most importantly to me, it visually matches the rest of my gear, and symmetry is very important for me. But I won't be holding my breath for any significant software or hardware upgrades; EMO simply hasn't delivered in the past.
Sincerely /b
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Nov 1, 2014 9:06:45 GMT -5
If we define "obsolete" as missing the latest feature or tech, are there any receivers or pre-pros that are not?
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