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Post by Topend on Dec 2, 2020 3:30:36 GMT -5
1)
We will NOT be including Dirac Live Bass Control for free. Unless, of course, Dirac decides to include that feature in their software for free. 2) We do our best to deliver on what we promise... However some things just aren't fully in our control... As you probably already know, we merely license the software from Dirac, so we are reliant on them for most of the code.
As usual I would also remind everyone to maintain reasonable expectations about room correction. Room correction is neither a silver bullet nor a magic wand. It is simply a modern technology that can often effectively correct or improve certain flaws in speaker performance and room acoustics. Room correction cannot turn a tiled bathroom into a five-star-rated concert hall. And, if you already have a perfect room and system, then there's nothing much to improve there either. I think most of us want to see Emotiva finally follow through with a promise they have made. So far, we have seen them run from their promises. I'm willing to pay. Just so you know. Dave.
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Post by markc on Dec 2, 2020 7:00:17 GMT -5
DLBC does more than try to better integrate multiple subwoofers, which is why the one subwoofer version is $349. It's design brief is to integrate ALL bass capable speakers in the system so that the sum of base from subwoofers plus Speakers set to Large can harmonise better and create fewer room nulls and more even bass Please steer me to the manual for the single subwoofer version of DLBC. I'd love to read it. I've looked for a manual but haven't been able to locate one. Also, please explain how DLBC controls the Large speakers to work with the Subwoofer in the single subwoofer version. I wasn't aware of this. Thanks for correcting me. Might be worth it after-all. It's at the start of the Dirac thread - in the Links To Dirac Resources section diracdocs.com/Bass%20Control%20in%20Live.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2mQnWUS77SBQC6tXcFMGzkc945DPBqepXsuUW0558Jb41VAKzCqo8tDHk
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Post by ttocs on Dec 2, 2020 12:18:28 GMT -5
The link doesn't work. I tried three browsers and all said the site is a risk. So something must've changed since that link was posted. Does that link work in your browser?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 2, 2020 12:33:32 GMT -5
The link worked fine for me. (Tuesday 12/2/2020 at 11:30 AM.)
Note that the link goes straight to a PDF file.... (Some browsers are paranoid and consider PDF files to be dangerous... which, on rare occasions, can be true.)
The link doesn't work. I tried three browsers and all said the site is a risk. So something must've changed since that link was posted. Does that link work in your browser?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 2, 2020 12:54:43 GMT -5
Here is the current status... as of December 2, 2020.
Implementing Dirac Live Bass Control on our processors will require an update to the DSP code module. It will also require quite a lot of additional programming on our part to integrate the new feature into our processors. We cannot proceed with our part of the programming until we receive either an updated DSP code module or source code from Dirac. So far we have not received the code we will need from Dirac. (And, since it will also require extensive programming on our part, I cannot give you a definite time-line for the rest of the project.)
I would strongly suggest that everyone make their purchase decisions accordingly.
1)
We will NOT be including Dirac Live Bass Control for free. Unless, of course, Dirac decides to include that feature in their software for free. 2) We do our best to deliver on what we promise... However some things just aren't fully in our control... As you probably already know, we merely license the software from Dirac, so we are reliant on them for most of the code.
As usual I would also remind everyone to maintain reasonable expectations about room correction. Room correction is neither a silver bullet nor a magic wand. It is simply a modern technology that can often effectively correct or improve certain flaws in speaker performance and room acoustics. Room correction cannot turn a tiled bathroom into a five-star-rated concert hall. And, if you already have a perfect room and system, then there's nothing much to improve there either. So, are you writing code and testing or waiting on Dirac to give you the code? We all know where one of these paths lead as we watched it for a couple of years. It sounds like your statement implies you guys are expecting them to write code for your chosen DSP. I think many will agree that, at this point, we just want a real answer so we can move forward. Whether you or anyone else thinks this is important or not, your company has stated several times that you "are working on it" and have committed to providing it. No one expects it to be free to my knowledge. This is somewhat of a hostage situation here. You have people making decisions based on whether or not this is coming out in the next few months. Some may simply change which of your products to own or move on. You also have people buying different products because of a handful of questions that get avoided. It would be nice to just get a real, direct answer.
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Post by ttocs on Dec 2, 2020 13:03:16 GMT -5
The link worked fine for me. (Tuesday 12/2/2020 at 11:30 AM.)
Note that the link goes straight to a PDF file.... (Some browsers are paranoid and consider PDF files to be dangerous... which, on rare occasions, can be true.)
The link doesn't work. I tried three browsers and all said the site is a risk. So something must've changed since that link was posted. Does that link work in your browser? I was able to view the document after logging into Dirac on their web site. The manual is a bit outdated. It's for Version 2. It's also for the multi subwoofer version. I asked Dirac about the manual for the "Single Sub Upgrade $349" instead of the "Multi Sub Upgrade $499".
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Post by ttocs on Dec 2, 2020 13:08:13 GMT -5
This manual is for the Multi Sub Upgrade version. But in this outdated manual it states: "If a main loudspeaker is considered capable of reproducing frequencies down to 20 Hz, it should be labeled “Large” and be excluded from all Bass Control processing. The loudspeaker will be fed with nothing but the full-band content of its own input signal, and its input signal will not be fed to any other channel either." DLBC for multiple subwoofers does not control Large Speakers. If I am not understanding, please provide a correction. I want to learn.
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Post by ttocs on Dec 2, 2020 13:39:01 GMT -5
This manual is for the Multi Sub Upgrade version. But in this outdated manual it states: "If a main loudspeaker is considered capable of reproducing frequencies down to 20 Hz, it should be labeled “Large” and be excluded from all Bass Control processing. The loudspeaker will be fed with nothing but the full-band content of its own input signal, and its input signal will not be fed to any other channel either." DLBC for multiple subwoofers does not control Large Speakers. If I am not understanding, please provide a correction. I want to learn. Flavio confirmed that it's just one manual for both versions of the DLBC. So the capabilities for just the Single Sub version are still unclear.
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Post by megash0n on Dec 2, 2020 14:11:20 GMT -5
Here is the current status... as of December 2, 2020.
Implementing Dirac Live Bass Control on our processors will require an update to the DSP code module. It will also require quite a lot of additional programming on our part to integrate the new feature into our processors. We cannot proceed with our part of the programming until we receive either an updated DSP code module or source code from Dirac. So far we have not received the code we will need from Dirac. (And, since it will also require extensive programming on our part, I cannot give you a definite time-line for the rest of the project.)
I would strongly suggest that everyone make their purchase decisions accordingly.
So, are you writing code and testing or waiting on Dirac to give you the code? We all know where one of these paths lead as we watched it for a couple of years. It sounds like your statement implies you guys are expecting them to write code for your chosen DSP. I think many will agree that, at this point, we just want a real answer so we can move forward. Whether you or anyone else thinks this is important or not, your company has stated several times that you "are working on it" and have committed to providing it. No one expects it to be free to my knowledge. This is somewhat of a hostage situation here. You have people making decisions based on whether or not this is coming out in the next few months. Some may simply change which of your products to own or move on. You also have people buying different products because of a handful of questions that get avoided. It would be nice to just get a real, direct answer. Really appreciate that update. I'm sure we will all take from that what we will, but I will make the assumption that we are talking about somewhere between 2 years and never given how Dirac has historically not been willing to write code for the DSP Emotiva chose. Now, who wants to buy a RMC-1 so I can shift to an XMC-2 or something else?
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Post by megash0n on Dec 2, 2020 14:16:44 GMT -5
This manual is for the Multi Sub Upgrade version. But in this outdated manual it states: "If a main loudspeaker is considered capable of reproducing frequencies down to 20 Hz, it should be labeled “Large” and be excluded from all Bass Control processing. The loudspeaker will be fed with nothing but the full-band content of its own input signal, and its input signal will not be fed to any other channel either." DLBC for multiple subwoofers does not control Large Speakers. If I am not understanding, please provide a correction. I want to learn. from what I read, or heard, at one point.. All speakers capable of playing lower could be used for bass management depending on what Dirac wants to do. In effect.. Dirac would be in control of some likely crazy dynamic crossovers that would take different audio to different speakers depending on how it measures, etc...
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Post by ttocs on Dec 2, 2020 14:41:59 GMT -5
This manual is for the Multi Sub Upgrade version. But in this outdated manual it states: "If a main loudspeaker is considered capable of reproducing frequencies down to 20 Hz, it should be labeled “Large” and be excluded from all Bass Control processing. The loudspeaker will be fed with nothing but the full-band content of its own input signal, and its input signal will not be fed to any other channel either." DLBC for multiple subwoofers does not control Large Speakers. If I am not understanding, please provide a correction. I want to learn. from what I read, or heard, at one point.. All speakers capable of playing lower could be used for bass management depending on what Dirac wants to do. In effect.. Dirac would be in control of some likely crazy dynamic crossovers that would take different audio to different speakers depending on how it measures, etc... That's not how I read those sentences from the manual. The Large speakers are "excluded from all Bass Control processing". However, Flavio did update me on something else. Both versions will negotiate the crossover point of the subwoofer and Small speaker for a smoother transition, which I already knew, but since he mentioned it I include that info here.
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Post by megash0n on Dec 2, 2020 16:33:52 GMT -5
from what I read, or heard, at one point.. All speakers capable of playing lower could be used for bass management depending on what Dirac wants to do. In effect.. Dirac would be in control of some likely crazy dynamic crossovers that would take different audio to different speakers depending on how it measures, etc... That's not how I read those sentences from the manual. The Large speakers are "excluded from all Bass Control processing". However, Flavio did update me on something else. Both versions will negotiate the crossover point of the subwoofer and Small speaker for a smoother transition, which I already knew, but since he mentioned it I include that info here. Yeah. Definitely going to need to control the crossovers and such. I think this is issue number one of the entire re architecture of code... Which some of us pointed out well before Dirac released. I'm not sure what I read about the other thing. I could very well had misunderstood or inferred something. I read something that said any speaker capable could be used in the scenario.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 2, 2020 17:52:19 GMT -5
I suspect you may be thinking back to "Dirac Unison" ... I believe that, at that point, they talked about "all speakers being able to contribute to the bass"...
That's not how I read those sentences from the manual. The Large speakers are "excluded from all Bass Control processing". However, Flavio did update me on something else. Both versions will negotiate the crossover point of the subwoofer and Small speaker for a smoother transition, which I already knew, but since he mentioned it I include that info here. Yeah. Definitely going to need to control the crossovers and such. I think this is issue number one of the entire re architecture of code... Which some of us pointed out well before Dirac released. I'm not sure what I read about the other thing. I could very well had misunderstood or inferred something. I read something that said any speaker capable could be used in the scenario.
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Post by megash0n on Dec 2, 2020 18:46:52 GMT -5
I suspect you may be thinking back to "Dirac Unison" ... I believe that, at that point, they talked about "all speakers being able to contribute to the bass"...
Yeah. Definitely going to need to control the crossovers and such. I think this is issue number one of the entire re architecture of code... Which some of us pointed out well before Dirac released. I'm not sure what I read about the other thing. I could very well had misunderstood or inferred something. I read something that said any speaker capable could be used in the scenario. I agree. I assumed that DLBC was the "new" version of all of that. They could do a hair more explaining how all this mess works. I believe I remember watching a YouTube video of one of their execs explaining it. I can't really remember though.
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Post by marcl on Dec 3, 2020 9:06:15 GMT -5
I think this is significant, as it relates to a system with even one sub ....
"Another feature is that it ensures the high-range main channels to be in-phase with the subwoofers in the crossover frequency band, at a selected position in the room (in the application called the “main position“ and otherwise sometimes called the “sweet-spot”).
The design objectives are addressed primarily by adjusting phase relationships between the loudspeakers, using low-order all-pass filters and a genetic optimization algorithm."
"2. Reducing out-of-phase behavior between the channels of left/right loudspeaker pairs, in a frequency band around the crossover frequency. 3. Reducing out-of-phase behavior between the subwoofers and the highrange channels, in a frequency band around the crossover frequency."
This relates to something I've read in other descriptions, where part of the value of all versions is to align the phase of left/right pairs in the crosssover region.
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Post by megash0n on Dec 3, 2020 9:24:53 GMT -5
I think this is significant, as it relates to a system with even one sub .... "Another feature is that it ensures the high-range main channels to be in-phase with the subwoofers in the crossover frequency band, at a selected position in the room (in the application called the “main position“ and otherwise sometimes called the “sweet-spot”).
The design objectives are addressed primarily by adjusting phase relationships between the loudspeakers, using low-order all-pass filters and a genetic optimization algorithm."
"2. Reducing out-of-phase behavior between the channels of left/right loudspeaker pairs, in a frequency band around the crossover frequency. 3. Reducing out-of-phase behavior between the subwoofers and the highrange channels, in a frequency band around the crossover frequency."This relates to something I've read in other descriptions, where part of the value of all versions is to align the phase of left/right pairs in the crosssover region. Yes sir. Good find. I think this is something that should be in the software and isn't. It's one of the bigger challenges in my opinion because the Base version of Dirac now includes this functionality. You simply have to pay extra to implement single or multiple sub integration. The base version is still supposed to let you see and model different crossover options. It would be cool if, at minimum, Dirac would implement filters to account for such leaving us to set the crossover ourselves. While this potentially would be nowhere as good as the full version.. It might be better than what we have. There is a lot of technical logic that could probably be debated about this, but the overall point is that what we have implemented on the G3Ps is not the full bass version of Dirac 3.x.
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Post by ttocs on Dec 3, 2020 10:03:02 GMT -5
That's not how I read those sentences from the manual. The Large speakers are "excluded from all Bass Control processing". However, Flavio did update me on something else. Both versions will negotiate the crossover point of the subwoofer and Small speaker for a smoother transition, which I already knew, but since he mentioned it I include that info here. Yeah. Definitely going to need to control the crossovers and such. I think this is issue number one of the entire re architecture of code... Which some of us pointed out well before Dirac released. I'm not sure what I read about the other thing. I could very well had misunderstood or inferred something. I read something that said any speaker capable could be used in the scenario. Flavio confirmed that "The ability to include the output at low frequencies of the full-range speakers into the Bass Control optimization is a planned feature but it's not available yet". He also confirmed that "When using the single sub version there is only one channel that is measured and corrected". The multi sub version is the one that can measure all subwoofer channels and manage them all, not just one channel. Both versions of Bass Control will adjust at a good crossover point between a subwoofer and a speaker. So this changes my view on whether Bass Control is worth the expense for a single subwoofer. I previously had the opinion that it probably wasn't worth it, now I think it is. It's a big benefit to have DLBC Single Sub adjust at the crossover point the interaction between the single sub channel and every "high-range speaker". The Dirac Live app without DLBC measures each channel in the system as a single channel and does not know or care where we set the crossover. Every channel is just an output channel and has no interaction with any other channel, that is why adding DLBC is a big improvement.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 3, 2020 12:01:35 GMT -5
Yeah. Definitely going to need to control the crossovers and such. I think this is issue number one of the entire re architecture of code... Which some of us pointed out well before Dirac released. I'm not sure what I read about the other thing. I could very well had misunderstood or inferred something. I read something that said any speaker capable could be used in the scenario. Flavio confirmed that "The ability to include the output at low frequencies of the full-range speakers into the Bass Control optimization is a planned feature but it's not available yet". He also confirmed that "When using the single sub version there is only one channel that is measured and corrected". The multi sub version is the one that can measure all subwoofer channels and manage them all, not just one channel. Both versions of Bass Control will adjust at a good crossover point between a subwoofer and a speaker. So this changes my view on whether Bass Control is worth the expense for a single subwoofer. I previously had the opinion that it probably wasn't worth it, now I think it is. It's a big benefit to have DLBC Single Sub adjust at the crossover point the interaction between the single sub channel and every "high-range speaker". The Dirac Live app without DLBC measures each channel in the system as a single channel and does not know or care where we set the crossover. Every channel is just an output channel and has no interaction with any other channel, that is why adding DLBC is a big improvement. Ok, I think I understand on the one sub, but my subwoofer is well integrated in my system with "regular" Dirac, that it feels like the bass is coming from the mains and not a separate unit somewhere. I think I would need to listen to DLBC first to convince me. I am easily influenced however!
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Post by ttocs on Dec 3, 2020 12:06:41 GMT -5
I think I would need to listen to DLBC first to convince me. I am easily influenced however! Yep, it's not for everyone, and systems can be tuned with great results without Dirac at all. (Subliminal suggestion: Buy DLBC, buy DLBC, buy DLBC . . . .)
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 3, 2020 13:38:25 GMT -5
I think I would need to listen to DLBC first to convince me. I am easily influenced however! Yep, it's not for everyone, and systems can be tuned with great results without Dirac at all. (Subliminal suggestion: Buy DLBC, buy DLBC, buy DLBC . . . .)Lol. The problem is and we know the problem- if we want to buy DLBC, do we have to sell our XMC2 and get the Monoprice or something along those lines? When when when? 😬
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