DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 28, 2011 23:03:05 GMT -5
jamrock, you are of course welcome to believe whatever you like, but you are simply wrong about THX certification being worthless or meaningless. Like I said, you appear to simply not understand what THX certification means and you expect it to mean things it does not.
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 28, 2011 23:58:42 GMT -5
Personally I did not like the THX setting at all on my Onkyo AVR but that doesn't make a THX certification worthless or meaningless. Like David said, the certification is not a guarantee of quality, it is supposed to guarantee the unit meets certain specifications or criteria set forth by THX. That has nothing to do with stuff like how hot the unit gets.
I feel there's a difference between slamming the audible results of THX (which I do because I think it makes things sound worse - I am expressing my opinion) versus slamming THX as meaningless or worthless in the sense of it being something it is not supposed to be in the first place - as though your statement is an objective one.
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Post by billmac on Mar 29, 2011 5:50:12 GMT -5
What does it cost to have a THX certification? I haven't a clue what THX requires for its certifications. But I'm not the one making all kinds of baseless claims about products that carry the THX logo. So I have no need to prove anything . Really? If you do not know the answer then why are you making all these baseless claims? Again you should deal with the facts that is why I asked if you knew that most AVRs available today do not produce the claimed power rating for all channels. Do you understand why I asked that question? By the way where is the link to the review or which AVR you were talking about earlier? That would be dealing with factual information . You and I have had several of these "debates" in the past. Do you see a pattern? The pattern to me is that you make baseless claims with no factual information and then go on and on trying to somehow prove your point. Well you have only proven in this discussion about THX that you do not have a grasp of what a THX certification means. I am not the only one in this thread that believes that either. Seeing that this is a thread about the XMC-1 maybe you should start a dedicated thread about THX and all the facts that go with a THX certified product. I'm sure there are a few members here who (myself included) would appreciate the education . Bill
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Post by billmac on Mar 29, 2011 6:21:48 GMT -5
Personally I did not like the THX setting at all on my Onkyo AVR but that doesn't make a THX certification worthless or meaningless. monkumonku, I agree in that the THX modes really do not work for me either. Some seem to like the different modes but I prefer DD5.1, TrueHD, DTS or DTS-MA straight up without any additional processing. Maybe I should try it again just to give it another shot. I would bet the farm that the XMC-1 will not have THX certification. Is that how the whole THX "debate" started in the first place ? Bill
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Post by Topend on Mar 29, 2011 6:36:12 GMT -5
Bill,
I agree, let's move on from THX and get back on topic.
Lonnie,
Can we have an update on the XMC-1. Anything, however small will help to keep my interest up.
Cheers, Dave.
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Post by billmac on Mar 29, 2011 7:03:39 GMT -5
Lonnie, Can we have an update on the XMC-1. Anything, however small will help to keep my interest up. Cheers, Dave. It would be nice to get an update. Dave, This is a little off topic but I just checked out your speakers from looking at you sig. The Krix Neuphonix looks like an incredible speaker that reminds me of Revel's Salon2 speakers in a way. Are they only built and sold down under? Bill
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Post by Topend on Mar 29, 2011 7:18:31 GMT -5
Lonnie, Can we have an update on the XMC-1. Anything, however small will help to keep my interest up. Cheers, Dave. It would be nice to get an update. Dave, This is a little off topic but I just checked out your speakers from looking at you sig. The Krix Neuphonix looks like an incredible speaker that reminds me of Revel's Salon2 speakers in a way. Are they only built and sold down under? Bill The Krix speakers are built in Adelaide, Australia. I believe they are sold in the US. Contact Grant via their website email contact. He is usually quick to reply. The Neuphonix are great sounding speakers that really shined when I added the Emo amps to my old Yamaha 3800. The Epicentrix is a perfect match to the mains utilizing the same drivers. Dave.
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 29, 2011 9:15:08 GMT -5
Personally I did not like the THX setting at all on my Onkyo AVR but that doesn't make a THX certification worthless or meaningless. monkumonku, I agree in that the THX modes really do not work for me either. Some seem to like the different modes but I prefer DD5.1, TrueHD, DTS or DTS-MA straight up without any additional processing. Maybe I should try it again just to give it another shot. I would bet the farm that the XMC-1 will not have THX certification. Is that how the whole THX "debate" started in the first place ? Bill I think you're right - it was about should Emo gear be THX certified. I think that is totally unnecessary and would just add to the cost. Also, I think that the main advantage of certification is indeed from a marketing standpoint as someone might be inclined to choose your unit because of being THX certified (even though they would have no idea what the heck that meant) as opposed to another one that wasn't. But in the technical realm as far as providing any true benefits to the listener/buyer, I really don't see any. That doesn't invalidate the certification, though. It's like if I certify that the lemonade I sell was made from certified boiled water. That is probably meaningless for someone who actually wants to drink the thing and only cares about if it tastes good, but then someone else might think, "oh, this is better because the water was boiled first." Boiling (assuming you started out with safe water) has no significance but it wouldn't be right to slam my lemonade and say it was a bunch of junk just because I boiled the water.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Mar 29, 2011 17:32:27 GMT -5
Bill: I'm of the opinion that you just don't like anything I post. I'm o'k with that if you would be impartial and attack everyone who posts contrary to your opinions. But then, you don't. Reply #307 says nothing essentially different from what I've posted: ....... I think that is totally unnecessary and would just add to the cost. ....... the main advantage of certification is indeed from a marketing standpoint as someone might be inclined to choose your unit because of being THX certified ...... But in the technical realm as far as providing any true benefits to the listener/buyer, I really don't see any.If you are prepared to agree with these pronouncements, you should agree with me. As I have stated before, THX certification started out as somerthing good. Mainly to keep manufacturers honest with the claims about their products, and to "guarantee" consumers that when you buy a THX certified product, you are getting value for your dollar. That was the intention, but not the reality. Since I don't know what THX certifications means, be the big guy and post it/them for all to see. As per usual, you seemed more interested in opposing/bashing/rediculing me rather than providing useful information to dispel my ignorance. Is that all you can do, tell me that I am wrong? How does that help? A hungry person needs food, not a lecture in table manners!
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 29, 2011 18:07:27 GMT -5
As I have stated before, THX certification started out as somerthing good. Mainly to keep manufacturers honest with the claims about their products, and to "guarantee" consumers that when you buy a THX certified product, you are getting value for your dollar. That was the intention, but not the reality. The reality is that is not and was never what THX was about. It may be what the general public thinks it's about, and it may be what some manufacturer's promoted, but THX certification simply means the design is capable of attaining a particular set of performance criteria. It really has nothing to do with "quality" other than the end result of the measured output, and it's not about 'accuracy" of specifications. If the design can meet the negotiated and agreed-to performance criteria, then that's all that matters. And also not every single piece of gear is tested by the THX labs: the design is tested and certified, and then it is up to the manufacturer to abide by their design criteria. It really is similar to any other certification agency: meet the requirements and wear the badge. And realize there are many different criteria for every type of device, and often several levels of certification within a product category, and that when a manufacturer signs the THX agreement and pays their money part of that is negotiating what certification levels will be employed. So just because it says THX on the front, the user really has no real way to know what part of the vast THX set of standards are being employed, even if additional categories such as "Ultra" or "select" etc. are also listed. No two THX certs are necessarily equal. Just like UL or CE or Energy Star or many others.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Mar 29, 2011 18:31:49 GMT -5
A very reasoned attempt to explain the impossible. As clear as mud to me though. I still don't see/understand why I should pay for THX certification if i can't be certain of what I'm paying for. A great change of pace for the thread though!
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Post by nickwin on Mar 29, 2011 18:53:41 GMT -5
"THX certification simply means the design is capable of attaining a particular set of performance criteria. It really has nothing to do with "quality" other than the end result of the measured output"
Isn't that what matter? If your talking quality the actual measured output/response would be a good place to start.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 29, 2011 18:53:41 GMT -5
A very reasoned attempt to explain the impossible. As clear as mud to me though. I still don't see/understand why I should pay for THX certification if i can't be certain of what I'm paying for. A great change of pace for the thread though! In all seriousness the correct answer for you is to not pay any extra for something just because it has a THX cert. If you don't see any advantage to it then you simply should not look for it. Clearly though, many manufacturers think the cert has value, or else the company would have died long ago. There are cheaper and likely more effective ways to market a product than pursuing THX certification, believe me, so it is not just about that.
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Post by billmac on Mar 29, 2011 19:43:11 GMT -5
Bill: I'm of the opinion that you just don't like anything I post. I'm o'k with that if you would be impartial and attack everyone who posts contrary to your opinions. But then, you don't. Reply #307 says nothing essentially different from what I've posted: ....... I think that is totally unnecessary and would just add to the cost. ....... the main advantage of certification is indeed from a marketing standpoint as someone might be inclined to choose your unit because of being THX certified ...... But in the technical realm as far as providing any true benefits to the listener/buyer, I really don't see any.If you are prepared to agree with these pronouncements, you should agree with me. As I have stated before, THX certification started out as somerthing good. Mainly to keep manufacturers honest with the claims about their products, and to "guarantee" consumers that when you buy a THX certified product, you are getting value for your dollar. That was the intention, but not the reality. Since I don't know what THX certifications means, be the big guy and post it/them for all to see. As per usual, you seemed more interested in opposing/bashing/rediculing me rather than providing useful information to dispel my ignorance. Is that all you can do, tell me that I am wrong? How does that help? A hungry person needs food, not a lecture in table manners! In post #307 there is no mention that manufacturers use the THX certification to hide poor build quaility which is what you have said repeatedly. Apparently you miss much of what has been posted recently in this thread. That is to get back on the topic of the XMC-1 and not more discussion of THX. Maybe if you had not posted your the assumption of poor build quality and THX certification I would not have posted my thoughts on it. Once again you post remarks as if you were personally attacked for some odd reason. Also you might want to back off on playing the victim. I think what you really need to do is think about what you are saying before you post. Pretty simple if you ask me. Several members have tried dispel your ignorance as you say it on the subject of THX certification. But you simply do not want to listen to what they are saying. Perfect example is post #310 as you just do not want to let it go. Bill
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Mar 29, 2011 19:52:44 GMT -5
So...how about those Reds? Oh wait, the season hasn't even started yet.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I am looking forward to news on the XMC and XSP. The thought of balanced connections is growing on me...not because I may be able to hear a little less noise, but just because they are cool. Well, that and I just borrowed a friend's XDA-1 and ran it direct into my XPA-2 w/XLR's. I am feeling a case of upgraditis coming...
Mark
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Mar 29, 2011 20:34:15 GMT -5
"Clearly though, many manufacturers think the cert has value......."
I would say it a bit differently: 'Clearly, manufacturers know that consumers believe that certification has intrinsic value' So, THX certification has advertising value to the manufacturers. It sells your crappy products. When the power section of a receiver cannot produce it stated output into 2 channels at 1% ThD, and it is a THX certified receiver, the manufacturer is hoping that the THX logo will convince the consumer to buy that receiver despite its inferior construction. All that the consumer is thinking is, that the receiver has guaranteed good performance. And manufacturers know that. Does THX cares?
DYohn, you certainly has very good knowledge about THX certifications. So, it's not consumers like you that manufacturers care about. It is those who trust labels and logos. Like a friend of mine who has a pair of 7 wpc self powered speakers hooked up to his 58" Samsung plasma and called that "good stereo"
The deservingly bad rap that THX certifications get, is because THX the company, apparently makes no attempt visible to the public or the A/V press, that they are vigilant in maintaining their intended standards. When last was it announced that THX revoked certification of any manufacturer despite the many shoddy (under performing) products proudly adorned with the THX logo? I'm out!
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 29, 2011 21:04:09 GMT -5
"Clearly though, many manufacturers think the cert has value......." I would say it a bit differently: 'Clearly, manufacturers know that consumers believe that certification has intrinsic value' So, THX certification has advertising value to the manufacturers. It sells your crappy products. When the power section of a receiver cannot produce it stated output into 2 channels at 1% ThD, and it is a THX certified receiver, the manufacturer is hoping that the THX logo will convince the consumer to buy that receiver despite its inferior construction. All that the consumer is thinking is, that the receiver has guaranteed good performance. And manufacturers know that. Does THX cares? DYohn, you certainly has very good knowledge about THX certifications. So, it's not consumers like you that manufacturers care about. It is those who trust labels and logos. Like a friend of mine who has a pair of 7 wpc self powered speakers hooked up to his 58" Samsung plasma and called that "good stereo" The deservingly bad rap that THX certifications get, is because THX the company, apparently makes no attempt visible to the public or the A/V press, that they are vigilant in maintaining their intended standards. When last was it announced that THX revoked certification of any manufacturer despite the many shoddy (under performing) products proudly adorned with the THX logo? I'm out! What standards is it that you think are part of THX that are not being "maintained"?
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 29, 2011 22:19:18 GMT -5
"Clearly though, many manufacturers think the cert has value......." I would say it a bit differently: 'Clearly, manufacturers know that consumers believe that certification has intrinsic value' So, THX certification has advertising value to the manufacturers. It sells your crappy products. When the power section of a receiver cannot produce it stated output into 2 channels at 1% ThD, and it is a THX certified receiver, the manufacturer is hoping that the THX logo will convince the consumer to buy that receiver despite its inferior construction. All that the consumer is thinking is, that the receiver has guaranteed good performance. And manufacturers know that. Does THX cares? DYohn, you certainly has very good knowledge about THX certifications. So, it's not consumers like you that manufacturers care about. It is those who trust labels and logos. Like a friend of mine who has a pair of 7 wpc self powered speakers hooked up to his 58" Samsung plasma and called that "good stereo" The deservingly bad rap that THX certifications get, is because THX the company, apparently makes no attempt visible to the public or the A/V press, that they are vigilant in maintaining their intended standards. When last was it announced that THX revoked certification of any manufacturer despite the many shoddy (under performing) products proudly adorned with the THX logo? I'm out! I think you are missing the point, though. You mentioned earlier that post #307 (which was from me) said basically the same things you did. Perhaps, but you also seem to feel that THX is a means to mask shoddy manufacturing quality and inferior construction, something I never said, nor do I agree with. That may be that some companies might do this but as a blanket statement I don't feel that is correct. For example, I own an Onkyo AVR which is THX certified; it is the 3rd Onkyo I've owned and I have always been happy with the quality. If I were to buy another AVR, I would buy an Onkyo. From what I understand, THX sets forth certain standards that are supposed to be met. Now whether or not those standards translate into something that sounds good, well some may say yes and folks like you and me say no but that doesn't necessarily mean the product being certified is inferior. Those are two different things you are talking about - like if it was a requirement that a car could go at least 80 mph. If a car was able to go that fast, that would still say nothing about the quality of the car's construction or engineering, it would only say that the car was capable of going 80 mph. Equipment that meets THX specs just means it meets whatever standards THX says it should but that doesn't mean it necessarily has to sound good to anyone, nor that the equipment has to be built to a certain standard.
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Post by billmac on Mar 30, 2011 4:41:37 GMT -5
Once again you mention this mystery AVR that does not meet its stated power rating. This will be the third time I have asked you to provide the link to the review you mention or at least state the AVR in question. How do equate inferior construction to an AVR not meeting stated power output? Until you provide a link to the review so all can see it then your statements are non factual. I'll believe that when I see it . Bill
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Post by jmilton on Mar 30, 2011 6:29:32 GMT -5
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