Animo
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Post by Animo on Apr 1, 2010 17:11:31 GMT -5
The only Emo amps that do this are the mono blocks, all other do not double the output when the load is cut in half. I believe this has to do with the size of the power supply. IF the SVS or ED drivers are more efficient, they will need less power for the same output. It's the total design of the sub just not piece meal specs. You cannot compare these subs on paper. The best way is to test their in room response. Most of the time, that is difficult to have two, three or four subs in your possession at one time. The next best comparison is to model the subs in such software as WinISD. This is also very difficult for commercial subs because manufacturers don’t publish all the T/S parameters of their drivers. The most realistc way to judge these different subs is to compare the output from others who have actually tested them. A good indication of a subs ability is it's given output at a given frequency. Compare the output in dbs at 30hz, 25hz, 20,hz and 15hz. This is where most sub's output starts to fall off. Adding a second sub dies not double the in room response. The rule of thumb is a second sub will add 3db to the output. As far as the driver itself, I would be more concerned with the motor design and strength, the spider and the surround. These are what really separate the men from the boys in driver design. As long as the basket is strong enough to handle the forces generated by the driver, the material doesn’t matter. There is also pros and cons to sealed verus ported or passive radiator subs. This is worth looking into for your wants and needs. When I bought my XPA-2 the specs said 250 watts into 8ohms and 500 watts into 4ohms, which is a double of the power output. Looking today at the spec page, it says the XPA-2 is putting 300 watts into 8 ohms and 500 into 4. I'm just wondering what has happened since I bought my amps. Guess I'll be making a phone call soon. As far as adding a second sub, depending on the size, design, and placement, can add anywhere from +3db to +6db.
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Post by mlkmgr on Apr 1, 2010 17:54:39 GMT -5
The only Emo amps that do this are the mono blocks, all other do not double the output when the load is cut in half. I believe this has to do with the size of the power supply. IF the SVS or ED drivers are more efficient, they will need less power for the same output. It's the total design of the sub just not piece meal specs. You cannot compare these subs on paper. The best way is to test their in room response. Most of the time, that is difficult to have two, three or four subs in your possession at one time. The next best comparison is to model the subs in such software as WinISD. This is also very difficult for commercial subs because manufacturers don’t publish all the T/S parameters of their drivers. The most realistc way to judge these different subs is to compare the output from others who have actually tested them. A good indication of a subs ability is it's given output at a given frequency. Compare the output in dbs at 30hz, 25hz, 20,hz and 15hz. This is where most sub's output starts to fall off. Adding a second sub dies not double the in room response. The rule of thumb is a second sub will add 3db to the output. As far as the driver itself, I would be more concerned with the motor design and strength, the spider and the surround. These are what really separate the men from the boys in driver design. As long as the basket is strong enough to handle the forces generated by the driver, the material doesn’t matter. There is also pros and cons to sealed verus ported or passive radiator subs. This is worth looking into for your wants and needs. now that was a good write up! spec sheets alone will not tell you how good a sub is. until the emo subs are fully tested by some and we can see some actual SPL numbers, the numbers on the website are just that, numbers. "113dB typical in room SPL" is pretty boastful....
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2010 18:09:35 GMT -5
[quote author=roadrunner board=subwoofeers thread=10500 Most digital amps produce twice the power at 4 Ohms as it does at 8 Ohms. To make an apples to apples comparison, the ED would produce about 250 W into 8 Ohms.) Emotiva is the winner here. The only Emo amps that do this are the mono blocks, all other do not double the output when the load is cut in half. I believe this has to do with the size of the power supply. IF the SVS or ED drivers are more efficient, they will need less power for the same output. It's the total design of the sub just not piece meal specs. You cannot compare these subs on paper. The best way is to test their in room response. Most of the time, that is difficult to have two, three or four subs in your possession at one time. The next best comparison is to model the subs in such software as WinISD. This is also very difficult for commercial subs because manufacturers don’t publish all the T/S parameters of their drivers. The most realistc way to judge these different subs is to compare the output from others who have actually tested them. A good indication of a subs ability is it's given output at a given frequency. Compare the output in dbs at 30hz, 25hz, 20,hz and 15hz. This is where most sub's output starts to fall off. Adding a second sub dies not double the in room response. The rule of thumb is a second sub will add 3db to the output. As far as the driver itself, I would be more concerned with the motor design and strength, the spider and the surround. These are what really separate the men from the boys in driver design. As long as the basket is strong enough to handle the forces generated by the driver, the material doesn’t matter. There is also pros and cons to sealed verus ported or passive radiator subs. This is worth looking into for your wants and needs. When I bought my XPA-2 the specs said 250 watts into 8ohms and 500 watts into 4ohms, which is a double of the power output. Looking today at the spec page, it says the XPA-2 is putting 300 watts into 8 ohms and 500 into 4. I'm just wondering what has happened since I bought my amps. Guess I'll be making a phone call soon. As far as adding a second sub, depending on the size, design, and placement, can add anywhere from +3db to +6db.[/quote] lonnie stated that they underrated the xpa-2 and xpa-5 and that's why it has changed to 300 instead of 250 watts. There was a thread about this a while ago somewhere but i can't find it.
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Post by brax on Apr 1, 2010 18:45:59 GMT -5
N8DOGG,
Looks like you have some serious sub power there "Two 18" Maelstrom-x's in two 14.8cubic foot boxes". Are you running one EP2500 in mono per voice coil?
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Post by junchoon on Apr 2, 2010 11:44:10 GMT -5
is the sub xlr fully balanced design???
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darenp
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 5
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Post by darenp on Apr 2, 2010 20:05:34 GMT -5
I am in the market for a new sub woofer. Honestly i was waiting for emo ultra's. Now that they are there i was comparing Ultra 12 with eD A5s-300 and SVS PB12 NSD. I haven't heard any of these. I currently have a Polk entry level sub woofer that i would like to upgrade. I am pretty sure that any of the 3 above should give me a good improvement. May be there are more than 3 at this price range (HSU etc). But which one ?? I thought emo U12 would emerge as a winner at least on specifications in paper. Between U12 and eD, eD goes down to 19Hz and weighs a lot more than U12 (I am translating weight to better build quality). Same with SVS, they get down to 18 Hz and weighs almost twice as heavy as U12. I have a upa-5 and i am a believer of emo products. What is that i am missing here? Like power amplifiers, i am just not able to pick emo as the best bang for the buck in subwoofers. What do others feel? The compare the Ultra to the SVS model closest in quality you would be looking at the SVS PB12-Plus, which sells for $1199 (vs $500 for the Emotiva U12). The PB12 has a cast aluminum frame and a 525W amp, putting it in the same class as the U12's features. ;D I know this is an Emo forums, but are you really saying the quality of the ultra subs is on par with the SVS PB12-Plus? If so, I'm guessing you haven't actually heard/seem an SVS sub? I own the SVS SB12 Ultra & can say, sure the Emo looks like great build quality but it no wears up to par with my SVS. I don't know or haven't heard the Emo, so I'm not going to knock it but on paper the SVS is a more advanced/better built driver, the amp offers more "tweeks", the enclosure is finished much better, magnetic grill, 127lbs, etc. etc. Sure their a whole lot more but their still made in America & guess what, Americans don't like to work for next to nothing like other countries. Mine happens to be a piano gloss black finish & can say thats a way more labour intensive finish vs your std veneer on the Emo sub. Personally, it depends on what your looking for. Are you looking for all the bottom end you can get in home theater & like bass heavy music? Is so, I's say the Emo won't win as its a smaller sealed box (& with the laws of physicas the way they are). The ported SVS should defently take the cake if thats what your looking for. If you don't care about getting all you can out of the bottom end & would prefer tighter bass for mainly music listening, the Emo should have the advantage. My SB12 Ultra has a tonn of excusion but it still won't shake the bottom end like a good ported sub will. I wanted something thats more musical & I think my choice was perfect. It still does the trick for my dual purpose setup, but when I setup a dedicated HT, a large enclosure, ported sub will defently be on the shopping list.
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Post by artiek on Apr 2, 2010 21:14:17 GMT -5
Do you happen to know that SVS gets their piano gloss black cabinets from China? Probably all cabinets, but the piano black is the only one I'm sure about. A buddy has one that he bought used, it was damaged cosmetically, and he found out that he couldn't even buy the matching paint from SVS, because the cabinets are built and finished in a Chinese factory. Surprise!
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Post by Dan Laufman on Apr 3, 2010 0:12:42 GMT -5
Good discussion fellas. A couple of points I'd like to make.. 1. You can't do piano black lacquer finishes in the USA on a production basis unless you want to pay as much for the cabinet as an entire sub costs, and you must use materials that do not give you the deep gloss lacquer look. This is just not available here anymore. 2. If you see an amp from another popular sub maker, I'm going to bet that it's from China. This is what I do for a living in my other life, and essentially no one is building sub amps in the USA, sad to say. 3. Assembled in the USA means imported parts and a screwdriver. All of the real stuff comes from Asia. 4. If a driver is "Made in the USA", same story. All of the expensive stuff is sourced from Asia in 99% of the cases. We are able to sell you great products because we have a very lean supply chain and low cost distribution model, and we source where the quality is highest and the costs are the lowest. The Ultra subs are our entry level line and they offer outstanding build quality and very competitive prices. IMO, they represent best in class in terms of REAL performance vs. cost. Now you may not agree on paper, but until you put one in your system, you'll just be guessing. If it doesn't do what we say it does, send it back for a no questions asked refund. By the way, one of the reasons the subs are light is that they are very compact cabinets and we use a super lightweight amp module with a switch mode power supply. That saves a lot of weight. Our baffle is a full 1" thick. We use threaded metal inserts for EVERY screw in the box. NO wood screws; machine screws only with threaded inserts for durability and strength. The cabinet is fully box braced to reduce panel flex. It goes on and on. If you like our amps and our other products, you'll like our subs. We know how to build gear. Take a chance!! It won't hurt and you may be very pleasantly surprised. Thanks, Big Dan
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Post by niceguyedy on Apr 3, 2010 1:28:58 GMT -5
One thing that I would like to point out is the the eD subs are heavy, but they use a different material than the rest of the sub makers. I too was waiting for Emotiva's subs, but I had the cash now, and I'm not good at saving. So I currently have eD's A7s-650. Not even close to the same league as these, but I figured someone might be wondering what i had, so there it is.
I may however be looking for a sub for the living room. As with the rest of Emotiva's products, I'm sure they are worth every penny. I might be convinced to put one of the U series subs out there instead of another eD. I like to try new things.
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Post by artiek on Apr 3, 2010 14:20:18 GMT -5
Thank you Dan, that was an interesting piece of information.
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darenp
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 5
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Post by darenp on Apr 3, 2010 21:19:54 GMT -5
Hello Dan, if your response was partially directed towards my post, I'd like to make it clear that I am in no way knocking your product, atleast that wasn't my intent. For an "entry level" sub, it defently looks like the money was spent in the areas where it counts. I just don't want the OP thinking he's going to get similar performance from a small sealed sub vs a higher end, large enclosure, also very well designed ported sub. Because unless you've done something magical with your tiny enclosure, this just won't be the case.
I think SVS also offers very good bang for your buck, when compared to most others in the market. I'm well aware that "made in America", can be far from it ie offshore parts assembeled in America, should be more like it or even, completely produced offshore but packaged in America is "Made in America" (but I believe this is no longer legal to do).
Your Ultra 12 would be a much better comparison to SVS's SB12 Ultra. In their basic finish their prices would be very similar (SVS $100 more vs you reg price) & with similar box dimensions, I would think you would get similar performance, if you've done your homework as the SVS is a very well made product & does have a very flat frequency response. SVS seems to have abit more as far as attention to details (routered corners, MDF framed grill attached with magnets, etc). They both are similar powered (425 vs 500 watts but if you can tell the difference between these two power levels in the real world, your probably alot more skilled then most people). The SVS looks to have abit "beefier" driver but thats hard to say as I don't believe you list all the driver specs in the description. SVS offers a room filter, which is a nice touch for guys that can't eliminate this with their receiver/pro but I believe you have a "limiter" on your sub to prevent distortion? If so, thats defently a nice feature as I had that on a previous Velodyne sub.
I believe these two subs would really be a toos up as far as performance is concerned, which is saying alot as the SVS is a very well designed/made sub.
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Post by Vespid on Apr 5, 2010 9:53:50 GMT -5
Well let's just hear what Ntrain42 has to say about that. ;D And I know this is just going to cause trouble but I really doubt that the SVS will "slaughter" anything Hsu makes. Their ULS-15 is no slouch, going down to 15 hz.. [/quote] Well,.... I guess the level of slouchiness depends on if it's a sealed or ported 15hz tone now doesn't it.
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Post by oregonbill on Apr 5, 2010 19:35:54 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see the reviews start coming in on these subs. I would like to get a Rythmik F-12 ;D ;D but if the reviews are good and people seem happy with the Emo sub it would save me a few bucks for now. Or I could just tough it out and save a little more . Its a tough call i have no sub now . So I am watching this with great interest .
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Post by brand450 on Apr 6, 2010 0:32:19 GMT -5
If the Ultra's are considered low end in the family of emo sub's, what are the preliminary specs on the high end?? (X-Series I'm assuming)
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ICBM99
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When will then be now? ...Soon.
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Post by ICBM99 on Apr 6, 2010 10:59:27 GMT -5
There were some specs listed a very long time ago. The subs above the Ultras were called the ERS-112 and 212. But those specs are so old, I'm sure they've changed, and we really haven't had any updates regarding them in quite a while. There are a lot of us waiting to see what the wizards of Emo have come up with regarding the ERS subs. If that's even what they're still being called. ;D *Edit, here is one of the long threads where the ERS subs were discussed. emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=speakers&action=display&thread=2307
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Post by roadrunner on Apr 6, 2010 21:25:21 GMT -5
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on Apr 6, 2010 22:39:48 GMT -5
I wonder how much has changed since then? Or maybe it's the same and they have been tweaking this whole time. I'm loving the idea of the "Oh S!#t button. I'm sure I would use it a lot, because I tend to really mess things up with any EQ. I'm also wondering how accurate the auto setup will be. I would hope it'd be more accurate than most receivers and pre/pros. If not, then I guess it would at least get you to a nice starting point for final tweaking. I have been putting off buying news subs, because I keep remembering these. I have a feeling they will be running with some of the big boys of subwoofers when they finally come out.
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Post by Delaney on Apr 7, 2010 8:02:20 GMT -5
I have been putting off buying news subs, because I keep remembering these. I have a feeling they will be running with some of the big boys of subwoofers when they finally come out. I am looking forward to the ERS-212s. They might just be perfect for my HT basement room.
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Post by jmilton on Apr 7, 2010 9:44:48 GMT -5
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Post by rick240 on Apr 7, 2010 10:00:11 GMT -5
That's just a review of the specs... ...still waiting for some actual feedback on the sub.
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