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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2010 17:07:04 GMT -5
I've hear the pb12+. It really rocked the house, sounded good with music but Ht is most certainly where it excels. I've head a rythmik DIY kit (ds1500ci) with he 15" driver and what ever amp it had with the kit with 6 cubic feet internal sealed box. We had that directly competing with a paradigm servo 15 v1 (400 watts rms) at a local meet held in Winnipeg. there were about 30 of us, listened to a u57-1, wotw and a few different types of music (jazz and some other crap that I wouldn't ever listen to). The 2 were very similar in almost every way. the paradigm was digging deeper into the teens than the rythmik but I'm sure the older servo had more power, so I guess that was to be expected. If I had to choose between only those 2? I'd also go with the rythmik. If it could hang with the servo 15, it's got my vote. I used to have 2 servo 15 v1 and 2 servo 15 v2's. Amazing subs.
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edvb
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Post by edvb on Mar 29, 2010 17:36:44 GMT -5
Porscheguy
Well since I want to match my other speakers veneer I think the Rythmik for me is the best choice overall for a DIY. For some of us cost is a factor so this way I can be in the same area at half the cost.
Problem is it will be a while before the new amps are designed and shipped. And be available for the DIY.
Hopefully I will end up with a 600PEQ with XLR inputs and a pair of black 15" drivers as a kit.
I plan to have a dual 3 Cu Ft single enclosure built for the drivers and a separate amp case that can be attached to the rear.
This is bigger than the F25 retail enclosure so I should get the full 6Db extra output from the second driver.
You could also go with the new DS1510 Driver, 600PEQ amp and F15 enclosure. A pair of those should fit all your needs as an assembled unit.
If you dig deep enough there are a few with really high end systems that rave about the sound quality.
If you can find a negative review show it to us as I could not find any.
I have listened to a couple musical subs and no way am I going back to one for SPL reasons only.
Thinking hard of all the choices to use with the UMC-1 and how the processor will be used most of the time I will forgo the direct mode and use stereo with the single XLR Sub out.
I hope I do not get too much of a hit in this mode or in DST HD. I plan to get a few BR music concerts so that should look and sound great with the 65" Panny I will be getting.
Everything is a compromise so think how you use it most should help with your decision. I think that is the hardest part of all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2010 0:09:15 GMT -5
I have to add here, SVS and a number of other companies like Epik, eD etc. get alot of "younger" customers that used to be car audio SPL fanatics......I was very big into car audio myself(still am actually), but never cared about spl levels in my car......Hell even with my single 12" sub I was able to crank out CLEAN SPL levels of 125db in cabin......... If Rythmik has fault with anything, its their lack of advertisement and promotion. Their products are vastly understated. I can't fathom (pun intended) that statement about SVS and the young car audio crowd. Perhaps you are confusing SVS with JL Audio. Ntrain, I think you are doing a fine job of advertising and promoting Rythmik subs. ;D I really like Chet's (Fugsworth) idea of buying one of each and doing an A/B comparison. Now I know that is a lot of work but think of the service you will be doing to the Emotiva community by finally solving this important question. I for one would be more than willing to send you $5 once I read your comprehensive review. Just 20 members to join in on a voluntary basis and you have covered the return freight. Anyone interested could PM you or post with suggestions on how to set up the test. You could have a thread with a poll on which sub we thought you would prefer for music and movies. This would be really great Ed and you would go down in Emotiva Lounge history as the guy who conducted the famous Rythmik/SVS shootout. Your associated equipment is excellent. Come to think of it, Ntrain lives right in your neighborhood. I'm sure he would be glad to assist you with the heavy lifting. I could send you a roll of that heavy duty silver duct tape, no charge. What a super idea! What do you think, Porscheguy? ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Porscheguy on Mar 31, 2010 16:12:25 GMT -5
I have to add here, SVS and a number of other companies like Epik, eD etc. get alot of "younger" customers that used to be car audio SPL fanatics......I was very big into car audio myself(still am actually), but never cared about spl levels in my car......Hell even with my single 12" sub I was able to crank out CLEAN SPL levels of 125db in cabin......... If Rythmik has fault with anything, its their lack of advertisement and promotion. Their products are vastly understated. I can't fathom (pun intended) that statement about SVS and the young car audio crowd. Perhaps you are confusing SVS with JL Audio. Ntrain, I think you are doing a fine job of advertising and promoting Rythmik subs. ;D I really like Chet's (Fugsworth) idea of buying one of each and doing an A/B comparison. Now I know that is a lot of work but think of the service you will be doing to the Emotiva community by finally solving this important question. I for one would be more than willing to send you $5 once I read your comprehensive review. Just 20 members to join in on a voluntary basis and you have covered the return freight. Anyone interested could PM you or post with suggestions on how to set up the test. You could have a thread with a poll on which sub we thought you would prefer for music and movies. This would be really great Ed and you would go down in Emotiva Lounge history as the guy who conducted the famous Rythmik/SVS shootout. Your associated equipment is excellent. Come to think of it, Ntrain lives right in your neighborhood. I'm sure he would be glad to assist you with the heavy lifting. I could send you a roll of that heavy duty silver duct tape, no charge. What a super idea! What do you think, Porscheguy? ;D ;D ;D Well Chuckie, thats quite a proposal! In my opinion, every room will yield different results, so what sounds good here might not sound quite the same somewhere else. For instance if your room has a great cathedral ceiling or more or less sound treatments, jogs, nooks and crannies, that might greatly alter the sound. Its pretty obvious that ntrain is a total fanboy of Rythmik. He makes it sound like the F15 will sound "so much better" than the PB12-Plus that why would I even consider the SVS in the first place. I'm not buying that one single bit. I like Brian at Rythmik, I have spoke to him several times. I've been trying to work with him on matching veneers with his cabinet guy - but he has no samples to send so thats a problem for me. I'm still not sure about a company of one (Brian). Will he survive? What happens if he doesn't? Parts, service, resale value??? Lots of questions. Just not sure..... I also marvel at the fact that SVS has a demonstrable, proven track record of quality and great service. EVERY review I have read of their products including subwoofers has been great...... Terms to describe the PB12-Plus have been: "With no plugs, the PB-12 Plus delivered perhaps the most detailed, subtle performance of all these subs." "The PB12-Plus seems to me to be the perfect balance of precision and output - I can't ever remember hearing a more precise reproduction of bass notes".
"It worked just as well with movies, delivering a visceral slam with every stomp of a brontosaurus’s massive foot and every fracturing bulkhead of a spaceship. Despite all the couch shaking, it never boomed or sounded audibly distorted."
"The PB-12 Plus produced a punishing punch in the lab, too. Without the plugs, it delivered its maximum output of 114.8 dB @ 20 Hz."
Could you say anymore good things in a review about a subwoofer? I don't think so. Sure, it has no balanced inputs, so what. I hear of more problems with XLR inputs than benefits. I don't use them now nor do I think there is any sonic benefit to them. I also think BASH amps are perfectly fine in this application. Lastly, my main speakers are full range down to 30Hz, so for music its not as important to me. My Snells dig down pretty low, in fact I've watched quite a few movies with the sub off and I was surprised at the slam the Snells can deliver..... So, where am I going wrong???
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 31, 2010 17:16:50 GMT -5
I can't fathom (pun intended) that statement about SVS and the young car audio crowd. Perhaps you are confusing SVS with JL Audio. Ntrain, I think you are doing a fine job of advertising and promoting Rythmik subs. ;D I really like Chet's (Fugsworth) idea of buying one of each and doing an A/B comparison. Now I know that is a lot of work but think of the service you will be doing to the Emotiva community by finally solving this important question. I for one would be more than willing to send you $5 once I read your comprehensive review. Just 20 members to join in on a voluntary basis and you have covered the return freight. Anyone interested could PM you or post with suggestions on how to set up the test. You could have a thread with a poll on which sub we thought you would prefer for music and movies. This would be really great Ed and you would go down in Emotiva Lounge history as the guy who conducted the famous Rythmik/SVS shootout. Your associated equipment is excellent. Come to think of it, Ntrain lives right in your neighborhood. I'm sure he would be glad to assist you with the heavy lifting. I could send you a roll of that heavy duty silver duct tape, no charge. What a super idea! What do you think, Porscheguy? ;D ;D ;D Well Chuckie, thats quite a proposal! In my opinion, every room will yield different results, so what sounds good here might not sound quite the same somewhere else. For instance if your room has a great cathedral ceiling or more or less sound treatments, jogs, nooks and crannies, that might greatly alter the sound. Its pretty obvious that ntrain is a total fanboy of Rythmik. He makes it sound like the F15 will sound "so much better" than the PB12-Plus that why would I even consider the SVS in the first place. I'm not buying that one single bit. I like Brian at Rythmik, I have spoke to him several times. I've been trying to work with him on matching veneers with his cabinet guy - but he has no samples to send so thats a problem for me. I'm still not sure about a company of one (Brian). Will he survive? What happens if he doesn't? Parts, service, resale value??? Lots of questions. Just not sure..... I also marvel at the fact that SVS has a demonstrable, proven track record of quality and great service. EVERY review I have read of their products including subwoofers has been great...... Terms to describe the PB12-Plus have been: "With no plugs, the PB-12 Plus delivered perhaps the most detailed, subtle performance of all these subs." "The PB12-Plus seems to me to be the perfect balance of precision and output - I can't ever remember hearing a more precise reproduction of bass notes".
"It worked just as well with movies, delivering a visceral slam with every stomp of a brontosaurus’s massive foot and every fracturing bulkhead of a spaceship. Despite all the couch shaking, it never boomed or sounded audibly distorted."
"The PB-12 Plus produced a punishing punch in the lab, too. Without the plugs, it delivered its maximum output of 114.8 dB @ 20 Hz."
Could you say anymore good things in a review about a subwoofer? I don't think so. Sure, it has no balanced inputs, so what. I hear of more problems with XLR inputs than benefits. I don't use them now nor do I think there is any sonic benefit to them. I also think BASH amps are perfectly fine in this application. Lastly, my main speakers are full range down to 30Hz, so for music its not as important to me. My Snells dig down pretty low, in fact I've watched quite a few movies with the sub off and I was surprised at the slam the Snells can deliver..... So, where am I going wrong??? Few things I'll mention here: A. That SVS sub review didnt not exactly go up against "great" subwoofers. I would not call any of them audiophile quality in my book. B. RYthmik is a small one man company. BUt his products sell WELL. I personally like the fact that he takes user feedback 100% seriously on his subtle amp improvements over the years. It shows. And the prices cannot be beat. How many companies do you know of that actually use the type of quality components he uses for the price asked? None. C. Like I said Porcheguy, get yourself a D15SE(whether you get the XLR or PEQ version), and compare it to whatever SVS sub your looking at. Shoot me a PM when you get them, and I'll personally come over to your place and calibrate em both to your room and monitors. If you don't like that Rythmik better than the SVS unit. I'll pay you in CASH on the spot for it like I previously mentioned. I have extensive experience with SVS subs,had a pair of their top 13 Ultras and I'll take the Rythmik product any day of the week over anything SVS has to offer currently. ANd I'll back it up by taking a D15SE off your hands if you don't feel the same way.
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Post by roadrunner on Mar 31, 2010 17:19:56 GMT -5
Porscheguy
There is no reason to think you have done anything wrong. What other people's opinions are should hold minimal impact in your decision. Your simply evaluate what they have to say and then through them to the curb. It is your room, your gear, your money, your ears and YOUR decision. What ntrain, chuckienut, or anyone else thinks doesn't matter. You are the one who has to pay for and listen to the sub -- what you think is all that matters.
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Post by Porscheguy on Mar 31, 2010 17:24:12 GMT -5
You just amaze me ntrain. You are I'm sure well intentioned, but your also full of well... opinion. You give SVS no cred whatsoever, gush all over Rythmik even when the facts and reviews buttress the argument for SVS.
The only thing I really know about Rythmik performance wise is they are a great subwoofer.........better than all others hands down...
Because you said so.
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 31, 2010 17:25:55 GMT -5
You just amaze me ntrain. You are I'm sure well intentioned, but your also full of well... opinion. You give SVS no cred whatsoever, gush all over Rythmik even when the facts and reviews buttress the argument for SVS. The only thing I really know about Rythmik performance wise is they are a great subwoofer.........better than all others hands down... Because you said so. Well there, you said it yourself, so what is there to argue about? Resistance is futile. ;D
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Post by Porscheguy on Mar 31, 2010 17:28:11 GMT -5
You just amaze me ntrain. You are I'm sure well intentioned, but your also full of well... opinion. You give SVS no cred whatsoever, gush all over Rythmik even when the facts and reviews buttress the argument for SVS. The only thing I really know about Rythmik performance wise is they are a great subwoofer.........better than all others hands down... Because you said so. Well there, you said it yourself, so what is there to argue about? Resistance is futile. ;D Can I have some mush now??
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 31, 2010 17:54:17 GMT -5
You just amaze me ntrain. You are I'm sure well intentioned, but your also full of well... opinion. You give SVS no cred whatsoever, gush all over Rythmik even when the facts and reviews buttress the argument for SVS. The only thing I really know about Rythmik performance wise is they are a great subwoofer.........better than all others hands down... Because you said so. Reviews? The one you gave wasn't exactly a great review, as there weren't any great subwoofers in the comparison. As for my statement, I am willing to back it up by BUYING it from you if you pick it up and don't like it. I've dealt with and owned countless subwoofers and you can call it as you see it, but for the price(or double) there is no better audiophile subwoofer. Quite a few members here have picked up a rythmik sub, and I have yet to hear any complaints or buyer remorse, its the real deal. The next step up(in terms of output from a single driver with extreme low frequency detail) is this one right here: www.revelspeakers.com/products/product.asp?product=12 You can find a mint used one for around $1500-2000, and new ones pop up every once in awhile on Audiogon for about $1800-2200. But concerning the Rythmik, since you haven't heard it, pick it up, audition it, I don't expect you to take my word for it, but you wouldn't be doing yourself any favors by not trying it, if you really want an audiophile quality sub. You got nothing to lose as you have a buyer right here if you don't like it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2010 18:10:11 GMT -5
Porsheguy, you are doing exactly what I did when I bought a sub online direct. I read all that I could including all pro and owner reviews I could find on my list of subs including models above and below the one I was interested in. I read the owner's manual. I never made a decision on just one comment or review but put them all together and then finally made the decision. I considered looks as well as performance. I actually eliminated several very fine subs on looks alone including the one that had been #1 on my list. We got a sample of the cylindrical enclosure cloth and neither my wife nor I liked it (had to fit well aesthetically into our living room).
"In my opinion, every room will yield different results, so what sounds good here might not sound quite the same somewhere else. For instance if your room has a great cathedral ceiling or more or less sound treatments, jogs, nooks and crannies, that might greatly alter the sound." I agree with this totally and that is why I recommended the in room A/B test. Part way thru you switch the two subs. I know this is probably not practical for you.
Your thinking here looks very clear to me in the direction you are taking. I disagree that you shouldn't listen to others. That is how you narrow down your list in the first place rather than bringing 25 subs into your house for a personal test. You can also judge the advice of others based on your perceived believability of their statements.
I for one will be very interested in your final choice and your impressions. ;D
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Post by rick240 on Mar 31, 2010 19:21:39 GMT -5
You just amaze me ntrain. You are I'm sure well intentioned, but your also full of well... opinion. You give SVS no cred whatsoever, gush all over Rythmik even when the facts and reviews buttress the argument for SVS. The only thing I really know about Rythmik performance wise is they are a great subwoofer.........better than all others hands down... Because you said so. ...how about because I say so too I don't think ntrain ever gave "SVS no cred". I think he's always said they are great subs - he just found in his environment that Rythmik's were better. All of us here just have opinions - I think his may have more weight than many as he has owned arguably the best SVS sub (a pair of Ultra 13) and replaced them with Rythmik F15s. Some have heard SVS and Rythmik subs (I haven't , but I still recommend SVS to people based on reputation and never hesitate to recommend Rythmik based on personal experience), but very few in an A-B environment where they could say "I think X is better because..."
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Post by tank45 on Mar 31, 2010 20:33:59 GMT -5
Seems like a damn good offer by ntrain... give them the pepsi/coke challenge and you aren't out a dime in the end if you don't like it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2010 21:46:17 GMT -5
A good offer but really, how do you know he would even keep his word? Either way you go, you'll have a great sub that will sound fantastic. If you liked the svs better first, I'd say you already made up your mind In that case I'd recommend a mal-x 18" and a ep4000, throw it in a 6 cf box and you'll trounce everything for around $1000. lol
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 31, 2010 21:49:04 GMT -5
In that case I'd recommend a mal-x 18" and a ep4000, throw it in a 6 cf box and you'll trounce everything for around $1000. lol LOL! Id take 2 Rythmik servo DS1500 kits for $1000 over a single 18"..............same sized box, needing less than half the power for the same output. Actually I am buying 6 of them first of April. ;D Though I will say those Exodus subs do have a ton of output, just need a sh!t ton of power to get that output(read kilowatts). Basically the output needed to drive one M-X 18" sub will drive 6 15" DS1500 drivers. Reminds me of the old SS SPL160 subs, very similiar in design, sound and output.
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Post by 45acpauto on Mar 31, 2010 22:06:12 GMT -5
This is so funny, I also work in a hifi store like bigred. With all this audiophile sub talk, how come nobody mentions REL??? Look, I have heard tons of subs and benn selling them for years. M&K, Velodyne, B&W, Paradigm, REL, Energy, the list goes on and on. I have just started doing some investagating online and listining to some of the internet direct subs. I have done this to satisfy myself with all this internet direct sub hype. FYI, I have had 2 customers with SVS PB13 ULTRAS sell them off for something better. I have just heard the Epik Empire, ok sub. Not musical at ALL!!!! Big output, thats where it ends. PB13 is ok too, its not for me, it is a great HT sub, for music, no can do!!! My best friend just got the ryhtmik 15. Out of all them subs, it is the only one that could do music and home theater good. So for this choice the Rythmik is the clear cut winner. I am done with my internet direct sub listning. None of them stack up to the very best subs out there to me. Now, on another note. The Velodyne DD-15 bests all other subs imo hands down in every catogory. The REL B-1 is in a whole diffrent realm as far as sound quality. sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_b1.htmRead some of this stuff. I think you should go to your local hifi store and listen to one of these before you do anything. I am so suprised nobody ever mentions Rel for subs.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 31, 2010 22:45:59 GMT -5
This is so funny, I also work in a hifi store like bigred. With all this audiophile sub talk, how come nobody mentions REL??? Look, I have heard tons of subs and benn selling them for years. M&K, Velodyne, B&W, Paradigm, REL, Energy, the list goes on and on. I have just started doing some investagating online and listining to some of the internet direct subs. I have done this to satisfy myself with all this internet direct sub hype. FYI, I have had 2 customers with SVS PB13 ULTRAS sell them off for something better. I have just heard the Epik Empire, ok sub. Not musical at ALL!!!! Big output, thats where it ends. PB13 is ok too, its not for me, it is a great HT sub, for music, no can do!!! My best friend just got the ryhtmik 15. Out of all them subs, it is the only one that could do music and home theater good. So for this choice the Rythmik is the clear cut winner. I am done with my internet direct sub listning. None of them stack up to the very best subs out there to me. Now, on another note. The Velodyne DD-15 bests all other subs imo hands down in every catogory. The REL B-1 is in a whole diffrent realm as far as sound quality. sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_b1.htmRead some of this stuff. I think you should go to your local hifi store and listen to one of these before you do anything. I am so suprised nobody ever mentions Rel for subs. Former REL owner right here(10 years ago). Owned a Stadium,Strata and a Storm. Sold them as well. Problem with REL's is their price tag for what you get. Really nice woodgrain cabinet, above average bass articulation, and average clean output. But for the retail price paid, I really wouldn't recommend them. The Velodyne DD-15(series in general) I do have quite alot of experience with as well. Technically speaking its a Servo sub, and it does a pretty good job for bass articulation, but it does tend to get a bit muddy with lots of complex/multi bass notes at moderate to high volumes. Its better than alot out there, but I wouldnt put it in the same category as a B15A, D/F15 or even a Paradigm Servo 15 for absolute bass articulation. The best sounding subs from my experience use a true Class A/B amp(rare) and/or have a good servo feedback system.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2010 23:28:00 GMT -5
I also work in a hifi store like bigred......I have done this to satisfy myself with all this internet direct sub hype......I have had 2 customers with SVS PB13 ULTRAS sell them off for something better......I am done with my internet direct sub listening. None of them stack up to the very best subs out there to me......I think you should go to your local hifi store and listen to one of these before you do anything. Probably just a coincidence that the direct online dealers are seriously cutting into the retail audio/HT business. S&V Magazine tested a $1000 REL sub that produced 70dB's at 25Hz with 10% distortion (lousy performance). The same magazine tested a $1149 SVS sub that produced 114.8dB's at 20Hz with 10% distortion (outstanding performance). I know three people who sold their REL subs for BIC subs. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2010 23:50:03 GMT -5
In that case I'd recommend a mal-x 18" and a ep4000, throw it in a 6 cf box and you'll trounce everything for around $1000. lol LOL! Id take 2 Rythmik servo DS1500 kits for $1000 over a single 18"..............same sized box, needing less than half the power for the same output. Actually I am buying 6 of them first of April. ;D Though I will say those Exodus subs do have a ton of output, just need a sh!t ton of power to get that output(read kilowatts). Basically the output needed to drive one M-X 18" sub will drive 6 15" DS1500 drivers. Reminds me of the old SS SPL160 subs, very similiar in design, sound and output. Yup they sure do, i'm running a bridged ep2500 per voice coil for a grand total of almost 8000 rms. lol and thats just to the 2 mal-x's Still have the IXL's and their ep4000's bridged and the THT's (but they only have bash 300 each) my electrical guys LOVES me lol. Just got the 220v put in so I can finally run my new RMX5050 I got for my Bday from the wifey
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 1, 2010 0:40:04 GMT -5
I also work in a hifi store like bigred......I have done this to satisfy myself with all this internet direct sub hype......I have had 2 customers with SVS PB13 ULTRAS sell them off for something better......I am done with my internet direct sub listening. None of them stack up to the very best subs out there to me......I think you should go to your local hifi store and listen to one of these before you do anything. Probably just a coincidence that the direct online dealers are seriously cutting into the retail audio/HT business. S&V Magazine tested a $1000 REL sub that produced 70dB's at 25Hz with 10% distortion (lousy performance). The same magazine tested a $1149 SVS sub that produced 114.8dB's at 20Hz with 10% distortion (outstanding performance). I know three people who sold their REL subs for BIC subs. ;D Anything rated at 10% distortion is not what I would call outstanding performance. And a sub should not be judged just by how much distorted output it can put down at 20hz. I would rather have a sub that can play clean with articulation at 30-40hz with less low end extension, than a sub thats muddy sounding at the same frequencies, but can extend down lower with more output.
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