ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 1, 2010 0:42:20 GMT -5
LOL! Id take 2 Rythmik servo DS1500 kits for $1000 over a single 18"..............same sized box, needing less than half the power for the same output. Actually I am buying 6 of them first of April. ;D Though I will say those Exodus subs do have a ton of output, just need a sh!t ton of power to get that output(read kilowatts). Basically the output needed to drive one M-X 18" sub will drive 6 15" DS1500 drivers. Reminds me of the old SS SPL160 subs, very similiar in design, sound and output. Yup they sure do, i'm running a bridged ep2500 per voice coil for a grand total of almost 8000 rms. lol and thats just to the 2 mal-x's Still have the IXL's and their ep4000's bridged and the THT's (but they only have bash 300 each) my electrical guys LOVES me lol. Just got the 220v put in so I can finally run my new RMX5050 I got for my Bday from the wifey I was about to add, you sure arent running a 2500 on a 20a 120v circuit.....................
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2010 0:52:12 GMT -5
I have 4 x ep2500's on each 20a 120v and the other 2 ep4000 running together on a regular 15amp 120v (has never been tripped yet with the IXL's) and the bash 300's just pluged into the power conditioner. Also my 2 emo amps have their own 20a 120v. I had them on seperate lines but ran out of room in the fuse pannel, so I had to make a compromise. The 220v was used for the dryer but since we went with a gas dryer, i had it moved close to the HT for the 5050 (when ever I get off my lazy ass and go get it )
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 1, 2010 1:01:59 GMT -5
I have 4 x ep2500's on each 20a 120v and the other 2 ep4000 running together on a regular 15amp 120v (has never been tripped yet with the IXL's) and the bash 300's just pluged into the power conditioner. Also my 2 emo amps have their own 20a 120v. I had them on seperate lines but ran out of room in the fuse pannel, so I had to make a compromise. The 220v was used for the dryer but since we went with a gas dryer, i had it moved close to the HT for the 5050 (when ever I get off my lazy ass and go get it ) If your bridging an ep2500 on a single 20a circuit and driving it near its rated output you WILL trip a circuit. Depending on the size of the room and your listening levels though, I doubt you do..........though Ill bet your voltage swings are pretty substantial.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2010 3:11:26 GMT -5
Anything rated at 10% distortion is not what I would call outstanding performance. And a sub should not be judged just by how much distorted output it can put down at 20hz. I would rather have a sub that can play clean with articulation at 30-40hz with less low end extension, than a sub thats muddy sounding at the same frequencies, but can extend down lower with more output. Ntrain, we have gone thru this before. 10% is an accepted level of distortion for measuring maximum output by a sub at lower levels of extension. Anyone who is the least bit into sub testing and reviews is aware of this fact. All of Tom's tests quote output at 10%. The Finnish sub tests track up to 30%. A good sub for HT reaches down to 25Hz at the minimum and hopefully to 20Hz or below. A poster above claimed that REL subs were superior to SVS. I showed measurements where both subs were tested at 10%. The SVS sub not only reached output levels of 45 decibels higher but at 5 Hz lower. That is a huge difference in performance. All you can seem to do is repeat the same misinformation you continue to post about sub distortion levels. Here is a direct quote from Illka, the very respected sub expert who did the finnish sub tests. "Most people have difficulties to recognize even 10% THD." This is in reference to sub distortion levels. This is the reason 10% is many times chosen in sub test measurements. Here is an example of some sub test figures from Tom Nousaine "..........In the lab Frequency response (at 2 meters) 24 to 101 Hz ±2.5 dB Bass limits (lowest frequency and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion at 2 meters in a large room) 16 Hz at 80 dB SPL 108 dB average SPL from 25 to 62 Hz 114 dB maximum SPL at 62 Hz bandwidth uniformity 94% .......... " Notice this part: Bass limits (lowest frequency and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion at 2 meters in a large room)Get it Ntrain? This is part of his standard procedure in measuring subs. Do I need to go over this again? ;D (If you continue to post this incorrect information I'll be forced to pull out the dreaded BS meter, don't make me do it!) ;D ;D ;D BTW: For all you REL subs are better than SVS Ultra's folks here are a couple of test results from the $2000 REL Storm 5 sub and the SVS PB13-Ultra. At 10% distortion and 90dB's the REL was at 38Hz while the SVS was down to 14Hz!!! At 10% distortion and 105dB's the REL was at 77Hz while the SVS was down to 17Hz!!!
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Post by jmilton on Apr 1, 2010 6:40:14 GMT -5
Anything rated at 10% distortion is not what I would call outstanding performance. And a sub should not be judged just by how much distorted output it can put down at 20hz. I would rather have a sub that can play clean with articulation at 30-40hz with less low end extension, than a sub thats muddy sounding at the same frequencies, but can extend down lower with more output. Ntrain, we have gone thru this before. 10% is an accepted level of distortion for measuring maximum output by a sub at lower levels of extension. Anyone who is the least bit into sub testing and reviews is aware of this fact. All of Tom's tests quote output at 10%. The Finnish sub tests track up to 30%. A good sub for HT reaches down to 25Hz at the minimum and hopefully to 20Hz or below. A poster above claimed that REL subs were superior to SVS. I showed measurements where both subs were tested at 10%. The SVS sub not only reached output levels of 45 decibels higher but at 5 Hz lower. That is a huge difference in performance. All you can seem to do is repeat the same misinformation you continue to post about sub distortion levels. Here is a direct quote from Illka, the very respected sub expert who did the finnish sub tests. "Most people have difficulties to recognize even 10% THD." This is in reference to sub distortion levels. This is the reason 10% is many times chosen in sub test measurements. Here is an example of some sub test figures from Tom Nousaine "..........In the lab Frequency response (at 2 meters) 24 to 101 Hz ±2.5 dB Bass limits (lowest frequency and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion at 2 meters in a large room) 16 Hz at 80 dB SPL 108 dB average SPL from 25 to 62 Hz 114 dB maximum SPL at 62 Hz bandwidth uniformity 94% .......... " Notice this part: Bass limits (lowest frequency and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion at 2 meters in a large room)Get it Ntrain? This is part of his standard procedure in measuring subs. Do I need to go over this again? ;D (If you continue to post this incorrect information I'll be forced to pull out the dreaded BS meter, don't make me do it!) ;D ;D ;D BTW: For all you REL subs are better than SVS Ultra's folks here are a couple of test results from the $2000 REL Storm 5 sub and the SVS PB13-Ultra. At 10% distortion and 90dB's the REL was at 38Hz while the SVS was down to 14Hz!!! At 10% distortion and 105dB's the REL was at 77Hz while the SVS was down to 17Hz!!! Now don't go quoting facts and figures. Only real world conditions and years of experience are proof....oh, and LOL.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 1, 2010 6:58:14 GMT -5
Anything rated at 10% distortion is not what I would call outstanding performance. And a sub should not be judged just by how much distorted output it can put down at 20hz. I would rather have a sub that can play clean with articulation at 30-40hz with less low end extension, than a sub thats muddy sounding at the same frequencies, but can extend down lower with more output. Ntrain, we have gone thru this before. 10% is an accepted level of distortion for measuring maximum output by a sub at lower levels of extension. Anyone who is the least bit into sub testing and reviews is aware of this fact. All of Tom's tests quote output at 10%. The Finnish sub tests track up to 30%. A good sub for HT reaches down to 25Hz at the minimum and hopefully to 20Hz or below. A poster above claimed that REL subs were superior to SVS. I showed measurements where both subs were tested at 10%. The SVS sub not only reached output levels of 45 decibels higher but at 5 Hz lower. That is a huge difference in performance. All you can seem to do is repeat the same misinformation you continue to post about sub distortion levels. Here is a direct quote from Illka, the very respected sub expert who did the finnish sub tests. "Most people have difficulties to recognize even 10% THD." This is in reference to sub distortion levels. This is the reason 10% is many times chosen in sub test measurements. Here is an example of some sub test figures from Tom Nousaine "..........In the lab Frequency response (at 2 meters) 24 to 101 Hz ±2.5 dB Bass limits (lowest frequency and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion at 2 meters in a large room) 16 Hz at 80 dB SPL 108 dB average SPL from 25 to 62 Hz 114 dB maximum SPL at 62 Hz bandwidth uniformity 94% .......... " Notice this part: Bass limits (lowest frequency and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion at 2 meters in a large room)Get it Ntrain? This is part of his standard procedure in measuring subs. Do I need to go over this again? ;D (If you continue to post this incorrect information I'll be forced to pull out the dreaded BS meter, don't make me do it!) ;D ;D ;D BTW: For all you REL subs are better than SVS Ultra's folks here are a couple of test results from the $2000 REL Storm 5 sub and the SVS PB13-Ultra. At 10% distortion and 90dB's the REL was at 38Hz while the SVS was down to 14Hz!!! At 10% distortion and 105dB's the REL was at 77Hz while the SVS was down to 17Hz!!! 10% distortion is not necessarily accepted by everyone. Low extension distortion tends to give the sub a "warm" overbloated sound. When the distortion is kept under 1%, the sound to the best way I can decribe it tends to be "dry" sounding. Your right, alot of people don't know how to distinguish low frequency distortion, but some do as well. Just because Tom Nousaine thinks its acceptable to measure output at 10% distortion, doesn't mean its the right way to do it, nor is it the best sounding for some. I'd rather have more conservative distortion level measurements at 1% or less preferrably. The numbers arent as sexy, but the sound output is much cleaner to those who know what to listen for. There have been a number of posts on the AVS forum(and others as well) on arguments against testing at such high distortion levels, not all, including me find it acceptable. If I need and want that type of SPL at low frequencies, I am going to run multiple drivers to get me that type of output without high distortion instead of overdriving a single bass unit. The Rythmiks low damping and frequency extension control actually gives someone the ability to hear the differences in distortion output levels at low frequencies. By switching between lo and hi damping at 14-28hz at moderate levels you can actually hear the audible difference in the output tone at low frequencies. Low damping drives the distortion up significantly and the sub tends to have a much warmer/"uncontrolled" output and bass articulation gets a bit muddy. When its set to hi damping, the subs output at low frequencies tend to be audibly reduced a bit and sub sounds "dry", but articulation improves significantly.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 1, 2010 7:20:01 GMT -5
And as far as that Rel Storm goes, trying to compare the raw output of a small 10" downfiring driver/cabinet assembly with a modest 200 watt amp against a much larger PORTED 13" driver/cabinet with a 750watt amp is really not what I would a fair assement of a subs abilities other than sheer output numbers. That Storm really is designed for small rooms at low to modest output levels at best as a stand alone sub unit. But one thing raw output #'s dont show is how good its bass articulation is at low distortion levels. Its a very good unit. But is it worth the price? In my book, NO WAY. Its basically on par with my old Kef PSW2500's which btw also are 10" downfiring sealed subs with a modest 250watt plate amp. The raw specs, response and real world bass definition between them though are very similiar. The big difference, I paid only $250 a piece shipped for my 2500's. In fact I could have gotten 8 2500's(I have 4) for the price of one Storm 5. DO the math there, LOL! And last, here are some "review" snipets for the Storm 5: www.rel.net/review-storm-5.htm WHat do those reviews mean? Absolutely nothing to me. 99% of the reviews you find on any equipment should be taken with a grain of salt..........one big reason why I chuckle when people are quick to slap a link up on a piece of AV gear that got a "great review", like the one that compared the SVS to a few other less than stellar subs.
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Post by agehring on Apr 1, 2010 8:05:00 GMT -5
Like I said Porcheguy, get yourself a D15SE... If ntrain42 lives close enough to Porcheguy to "setup" a D15SE, why doesn't Ntrain42 take one of his DS15SEs over to Porcheguys and demo it for him? Then Porcheguy can give his opinion...
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 1, 2010 9:38:10 GMT -5
Like I said Porcheguy, get yourself a D15SE... If ntrain42 lives close enough to Porcheguy to "setup" a D15SE, why doesn't Ntrain42 take one of his DS15SEs over to Porcheguys and demo it for him? Then Porcheguy can give his opinion... If he is going to be pouring a few mixed drinks, and we could set up a time and date that worked for both of us I actually wouldn't have an issue with that....he is only about 15-20 minutes north of me.....but then how am I supposed to potentially get another D15SE minus the shipping charges out of it? ;D
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Post by UT-Driven on Apr 1, 2010 12:13:42 GMT -5
LOL! Id take 2 Rythmik servo DS1500 kits for $1000 over a single 18"..............same sized box, needing less than half the power for the same output. Actually I am buying 6 of them first of April. ;D Though I will say those Exodus subs do have a ton of output, just need a sh!t ton of power to get that output(read kilowatts). Basically the output needed to drive one M-X 18" sub will drive 6 15" DS1500 drivers. Reminds me of the old SS SPL160 subs, very similiar in design, sound and output. Yup they sure do, i'm running a bridged ep2500 per voice coil for a grand total of almost 8000 rms. lol and thats just to the 2 mal-x's Still have the IXL's and their ep4000's bridged and the THT's (but they only have bash 300 each) my electrical guys LOVES me lol. Just got the 220v put in so I can finally run my new RMX5050 I got for my Bday from the wifey Do you get a Christmas card from the power company every year? They must really love you, haha. Doug
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Post by 45acpauto on Apr 1, 2010 12:24:42 GMT -5
This forum is so funny, Ntrain is the only dude that knows whats going on in hear at all. Try comparing apples to apples, compair a crummy SVS PB-13 to this if you want to do apples to oranges. sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_studio.htmThe Rel Storm is a disco sub that is not even current. Try to look at the new ones. Talk about musical notes??? Does anyone of you guys with the exception of Ntrain even know what a musical note even is? I knew I should have never posted in here. Ralph
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Apr 1, 2010 13:36:02 GMT -5
I'm with Ntrain on the sub distortion - I want it ultra crisp, tight, accurate and just plain clean, if SPL is lacking, get more of them.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Apr 1, 2010 13:39:25 GMT -5
This forum is so funny, Ntrain is the only dude that knows whats going on in hear at all. Try comparing apples to apples, compair a crummy SVS PB-13 to this if you want to do apples to oranges. sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_studio.htmThe Rel Storm is a disco sub that is not even current. Try to look at the new ones. Talk about musical notes??? Does anyone of you guys with the exception of Ntrain even know what a musical note even is? I knew I should have never posted in here. Ralph Things that come to mind: Is there a link to a frequency plot/distortion measurements for that $9k REL so we can see what level/quality it has at 9Hz (and everywhere else)? How many U12 Emotivas or Rythmik or eD etc. can you get for 9k and how would that compare? Edit: From REL's site: Lower Frequency Response (in room -6dB): 9Hz rel.net/index2.htmTheir "cheaper" models are quoting 11Hz at -6db, I think my Rhytmik can match that, especially if I turn off the rumble filter - 2 almost certainly would.
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Post by Porscheguy on Apr 1, 2010 13:43:54 GMT -5
"This forum is so funny, Ntrain is the only dude that knows whats going on in hear at all. Try comparing apples to apples, compair a crummy SVS PB-13 to this if you want to do apples to oranges. sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_studio.htmThe Rel Storm is a disco sub that is not even current. Try to look at the new ones. Talk about musical notes??? Does anyone of you guys with the exception of Ntrain even know what a musical note even is? I knew I should have never posted in here. Ralph" Thanks Ralph for calling us all morons. Only you and ntrain know anything about anything. It's not my call, but I don't think you would be hurting too many feelings if you just went away. After all, you work in a "high end" store. Why would even waste your words with us common folk? We are not worthy of your presence...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2010 14:45:45 GMT -5
I have 4 x ep2500's on each 20a 120v and the other 2 ep4000 running together on a regular 15amp 120v (has never been tripped yet with the IXL's) and the bash 300's just pluged into the power conditioner. Also my 2 emo amps have their own 20a 120v. I had them on seperate lines but ran out of room in the fuse pannel, so I had to make a compromise. The 220v was used for the dryer but since we went with a gas dryer, i had it moved close to the HT for the 5050 (when ever I get off my lazy ass and go get it ) If your bridging an ep2500 on a single 20a circuit and driving it near its rated output you WILL trip a circuit. Depending on the size of the room and your listening levels though, I doubt you do..........though Ill bet your voltage swings are pretty substantial. It can but I've never tripped one yet. Here are the actual tested specs at 4ohms bridged : www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=855865&page=3 Hence the reason I have 6 of them for $300 it's probably the best deals in amps for sub duty. I've tried to trip the beakers but the house sound like it's gonna come down, so I usually give up lol. My thinking is too much power is WAy better than not enough. With almost 4000 watts per driver, I'm sure the driver will pop before the amp gives up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2010 14:47:11 GMT -5
"This forum is so funny, Ntrain is the only dude that knows whats going on in hear at all. Try comparing apples to apples, compair a crummy SVS PB-13 to this if you want to do apples to oranges. sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_studio.htmThe Rel Storm is a disco sub that is not even current. Try to look at the new ones. Talk about musical notes??? Does anyone of you guys with the exception of Ntrain even know what a musical note even is? I knew I should have never posted in here. Ralph" Thanks Ralph for calling us all morons. Only you and ntrain know anything about anything. It's not my call, but I don't think you would be hurting too many feelings if you just went away. After all, you work in a "high end" store. Why would even waste your words with us common folk? We are not worthy of your presence... lol
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Post by Porscheguy on Apr 1, 2010 14:53:08 GMT -5
Ntrain's computer where he writes all of his Lounge posts. Chuck, I sincerely hope I get to meet you someday.... Ed
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 1, 2010 15:19:14 GMT -5
This forum is so funny, Ntrain is the only dude that knows whats going on in hear at all. Try comparing apples to apples, compair a crummy SVS PB-13 to this if you want to do apples to oranges. sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_studio.htmThe Rel Storm is a disco sub that is not even current. Try to look at the new ones. Talk about musical notes??? Does anyone of you guys with the exception of Ntrain even know what a musical note even is? I knew I should have never posted in here. Ralph Things that come to mind: Is there a link to a frequency plot/distortion measurements for that $9k REL so we can see what level/quality it has at 9Hz (and everywhere else)? How many U12 Emotivas or Rythmik or eD etc. can you get for 9k and how would that compare? Edit: From REL's site: Lower Frequency Response (in room -6dB): 9Hz rel.net/index2.htmTheir "cheaper" models are quoting 11Hz at -6db, I think my Rhytmik can match that, especially if I turn off the rumble filter - 2 almost certainly would. The transmission line Rel subs like the Stentor and Studio subs will have extension in the 10hz range. But for $6-10k range? Regardless they are excellent sounding subs, just not what I would call a bargain. WHat you get for 6-10k: A. 1 or 2" very good quality 10" drivers B. A very good quality 300 or 500 watt Class A/B amp C. 1 1/8th inch thick MDF transmissionline cabinet with 1/8th inch thick wood veneer D. This is my favorite one: A product marked up 4 times(4 entities make money off the end sale)! Rel sells to their distributor(Sumiko in the USA), the distributor then sells to a retail store. That retail store then sells at or close to retail price, which includes a split in profit to the store directly and then commision to the sales rep who sold you a $6,000-10,000 hunk of MDF and thin wood veneer! ;D WHAT A BARGAIN! To give you an idea of the type of profit a saleman is looking at when selling a Rel sub. Back in the 90's we sold Stadium II's for about $3000. From about an hours worth of work demoing and selling the sub, I would get a commision of just under $500 from selling one of these subs. Then of course the store itself made a big profit off it as well that was around $800. And that was just off a $3000 Rel sub over 10 years ago. I would love to know what commision would be for selling a $6-10k Rel sub............drinks on the house for selling one of those literally.......
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Post by bigred7078 on Apr 1, 2010 16:08:47 GMT -5
Hey ntrain what do you think of the latest Paradigm sub1 and sub2 models? Disregarding price...Lol
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 1, 2010 16:29:25 GMT -5
Hey ntrain what do you think of the latest Paradigm sub1 and sub2 models? Disregarding price...Lol Never physically heard or played with either of them. But I have played with a Sub 25. Its a beast for output. Paradigm Subs like the Servo, Studio and Signature series are very good sounding subs. I've always liked them, with the Servo-15 being my favorite.
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